Conscious universe getting more support by scientists.

reply to post by EnlightenUp

When were you knighted?

March 23 in the year of our lord 1649.

Are conscious scientists getting more support by the universe?

No, the universe has deemed all conscious entities as boring thing's it should have never created. The universe will destroy us all when it's ready.

Will boxes of chocolates with contents selected according to random radioactive decay counts spice up my love life?

That would depend on what genetic mutations you adore after your loved one consumes the radioactive chocolates.

How far can I go until I run into the forest?

Roughly five klick's if traveling due west. Any other direction will lead to nowhere in time.

Originally posted by sirnex
The experiments are NOT experiments of data, they are experiments of how matter behaves at the microscopic level.

You are not addressing the issue.
The experiment does involve data.

Two identical experiments take place.
After the experiments takes place information from one is deleted.
This deletion changes the results of an experiment that already took place.
If the information still exists = particle pattern
If the information is deleted = wave pattern

The experiment reveals the influence of human knowledge on reality.
The results prove that observation creates variables.
If you comprehend the innate abstract quality of of raw data the only way that deleting it can effect reality is if observation effects reality.


[edit on 1-1-2010 by Jezus]

reply to post by Jezus

You are not addressing the issue.
The experiment does involve data.

Again, the experiments are not experiments on data, the experiments are experiments on how matter behaves at the subatomic level.

Two identical experiments take place.
After the experiments takes place information from one is deleted.
This deletion changes the results of an experiment that already took place.
If the information still exists = particle pattern
If the information is deleted = wave pattern

Exactly, and yet your main concern is the data, which is only received after the conclusion of the experiment by us. The experiments show us that matter does not behave classically at the subatomic level. None of the experiments are set up to include a direct input of the human mind.

The experiment reveals the influence of human knowledge on reality.

No, it does not. The experiment shows that matter does not behave in the classical sense. That is the whole point of quantum mechanics.

The results prove that observation creates variables.

Your referring to the observer effect, this has nothing to do with human consciousness. Two electrons interacting suffices as an 'observer' There is no known direct interaction of the human mind with reality. All perception of reality is received first through the five sensory organs and then interpreted by the brain into useful information.

If you comprehend the innate abstract quality of of raw data the only way that deleting it can effect reality is if observation effects reality.

You can continue to ignore what I've previously quoted or I can continue to re-quote the science itself. Your still wrong.

reply to post by sirnex


Why do you keep avoiding the results of the experiment I am discussing?

2. Leave the electron detectors on, but don't gather the information.
=
The result upon analysis: an interference pattern at the back wall. So it seems that the electron detectors located at the slits do not themselves affect the electron, even when the equipment is fully functioning and detecting (in a mechanical sense) the electrons, so long as we don't obtain the results of these measurements.

3. Record the measurements at the slits, but then erase it before analyzing the results at the back wall.
=
The result upon analysis: an interference pattern at the back wall. Notice that, in this variation, the double slit experiment with detectors at the slits is completed in every respect by the time we choose to erase the recorded data. Up to that point, there is no difference in our procedure here and in our initial procedure ([pp. 15-17]), which yielded the puzzling clumping pattern. Yet, it seems that if we, in a sense, retroactively remove the electron detectors at the slits (not by going back in time to physically remove them, but only by removing the information they have gathered so that it is not available from the time of the erasure going forward into the future), we can "change" the results of what we presume is a mechanically complete experiment, so far as those results are determined by a later analysis, to produce an interference pattern instead of a clumping pattern. This is mind-boggling.

www.bottomlayer.com...

The deletion of information changes the results of a completed experiment.
These experiments prove it is not the measurement that creates the particle pattern instead of the wave pattern but the existence of information.

Since potential for a human to have knowledge changes the results of the experiment it must have something to do with consciousness.

The fact that deleting data influences the physical reality after the experiment is already complete proves that consciousness is a factor.

Data is only meaningful in the context of observation by consciousness.
Data is not physically related to what it describes.
If the existence of data changes reality it is because it is potential knowledge for a conscious mind.

reply to post by Jezus

Why do you keep avoiding the results of the experiment I am discussing?

I'm not avoiding the results of the experiment at all. Why are you avoiding looking at a proper full description of the experiments, it's setup, it's function and it's purpose? Why are you constantly quoting from that one sensationalized site that shows literally no mechanism for the inclusion of the human mind into the experiment? I've already gone over this experiment with that matrix person, which if I'm not mistaken, you were present in that thread (I forget which thread now). He continuously made this same claim you are making until he finally got a clue. Haven't heard from him since about this experiment. You don't make the choice, you don't observe anything and you are not part of the experiment. Not even you are quoting from your sensationalized article where in the experiment the human mind plays an explicit role nor by what mechanism the human mind interacts to facilitate that change. The results from a non sensationalized scientific article are profound in it's own right as the experiment show's what it intended to show, that matter does not behave classically at the subatomic level. So, please, read about the experiment from a proper scientific article and not from this sensationalized description of the experiment.

The fact that deleting data influences the physical reality after the experiment is already complete proves that consciousness is a factor.

This is why I am begging you to find out how the deletion process takes place in the experiments setup. We don't personally delete anything, it's in how the experiment is setup. Go learn something about the science behind it, from the science itself. Not from sensationalized media garbage.

ok i think i understand this argument better now after re reading it... i think lol "hope"

On one hand you can say "the universe"

To say the universe is aware of itself is an insane theory (((no offense))). It does not exist.

For instance, to say a comet can change directions, can choose between one planet or the next, can be understanding and reflective, is absurd.

A dog is smarter than some electron zigging about. I think these scientists need to rethink the unthinkable before their thought turns insane.

Just a thought

[edit on 1-1-2010 by yasherkoach]

reply to post by yasherkoach


yeah it is innit... yet the universe made u "just think" did it not?

or are you not apart of the unvierse?

LOL just asking coz your logic seems weee bit offf

reply to post by yasherkoach


You're all over the place in non-sequiturs there friend.

To draw an arbitrary line of awarness or consciousness versus non-awareness or non-consciousness in the sand is the epitome of insanity and very well devilish to boot.

A comet cannot change directions and neither can a comatose person.

To Jezus: I admire your ability to respond in a calm manner while sirnex is constantly insulting you.

To sirnex: I agree with your reasoning, but find your choice of words for Jezus a bit off ;-)
I don't think one needs to constantly resort to insults to prove a point.

Anyhoo, I find your discussion fascinating and have learned a great deal.

Thank you,

N

BTW: sirnex can you point me to a scientific description of said experiment. I'd like to read where you are coming from.

Originally posted by Nichiren
BTW: sirnex can you point me to a scientific description of said experiment. I'd like to read where you are coming from.

I've already gone over the topic so many time's, not only in this thread, but in others. To be honest, I'm not really feeling like going over it repeatedly. You are more than welcome to use the search function, type in my name and review all my post's. Most of them will be in regards to quantum mechanics or religion in general.

To sirnex: I agree with your reasoning, but find your choice of words for Jezus a bit off ;-)
I don't think one needs to constantly resort to insults to prove a point.

I have a problem when it come's to people who cling onto an erroneous ideology when it's demonstrated as wrong. I've asked Jezus numerous time's now to review the experiment from an actual scientific article about the experiment. He simply refuses to do so and just continues to re-quote from a sensationalized article of the experiment. If he wishes to do something as that idiotic, then I have no choice but to point out the blatant idiocy. I can't control him, all I can do is continuously ask him to review the actual science.

There is growing evidence of this and I knew of it way back in 1994. I remember some scientist doing a test to see if the human mind can influence the past. Guess what he found out that you could.... This brings more evidence to the fact that our conscious mind is more mysterious than ever and western science has to change its language to more of an eastern philosophy in order to better understand the universe.
The evidence is there and scientists are refusing to believe it as a whole because it undermines everything they have worked so hard for the last several hundred years. They are waiting to see if the higgs boson will be found as it will give more credence to support their present understanding. However many dont realise this but the future of science is balanced on the hope of finding the higgs boson because if it isnt found then science has to go major restructuring anyway. Any ways quantum consciousness is a reality and heres a link to that experiment done way back in 1994

Science: Martial arts students influence the past

reply to post by 13579

On one hand you can say "the universe"

reply to post by sirnex

Intelligent creation would be no more different than God. In essence, we would be discussing an intelligent entity that has the built in know how of how to create a universe and intelligent life within it. Basically, God.

No one said it was intelligent?? You assume that it is..

Then you cannot claim that the universe itself as a *whole* is an intelligent consciousness. Unless you wish to be called a fcking hypocrite.

Yet you are the sum of its parts? and was created by it so technically it is?

How is that hyocrital??

And this is where I disagree and call you a narcissist and claim that it's aliens from tau ceti. Prove me wrong.

What are you bleeting on about? i know you love the word narcissit but claiming engery and matter are not one of the same thing is also being silly correct? even tho you did state that your self after 20 pages of arguing you did in fact not get it..

Correlation does not imply causation, but of course you demand we ignore that aspect in order for your opinion to be true.

Thats because you have no idea really what im talking about and use correlation to justify your own ineptness to understand what is being talked about in a logical manner .. hence why you sware and justify it by means of being smart when in fact your not..

Your a hypocritical liar as in order for the universe to be conscious then it should know exactly what it's doing. And you love to claim that the universe as a whole is conscious. So now we understand your a flipping lying ass.

and here were in fact you are wrong.. because your limited to how you think.. as i pointed out

in order for the universe to be conscious then it should know exactly what it's doing.

So you was a mistake? LOL no..

nd you love to claim that the universe as a whole is conscious.

As you very well know i gave 2 reasons for why it in fact is.. because humans ARE that would mean the universe as a "whole" IS..

who the bloody hell made the universe YOU? no.. who is OBSERVING THE UNIVERSE SIREX?? WE ARE

WHO MADE US SIREX? WHAT DO YOU LIVE IN SIREX??

THE UNIVERSE

did you never ever do math? or bother to think that the very think yo

u live in is in affect the very same thing you are on a BIGGER SCALE

and the only thing that connects YOU with IT is in fact YOU?

self reflection..

and dont come with the insults and name calling because if i was honest its so imature.. its a wonder your still on ATS with the amount of childish insults you give out.

and dont justify them because you cant even understand a topic.. its a FALLACY

reply to post by 13579

No one said it was intelligent?? You assume that it is..

Hypocritical mutha... No, it's not I, it's you. Please don't misrepresent me unless you want me to quote you throughout a variety of threads on this one.

Yet you are the sum of its parts? and was created by it so technically it is?

No, I was created by my mom and dad fcking one night as much as I don't want to think about that. The universe as a *whole* had nothing to do with the two of them fcking. Unless you can show it did. Moron. LOVE YOU!

How is that hyocrital??

Basically, because your an idiot. I don't make the rules. I just enforce them. You argue like an idiot, you get treated like an idiot. Either think before you post, or don't post at all.

What are you bleeting on about? i know you love the word narcissit but claiming engery and matter are not one of the same thing is also being silly correct? even tho you did state that your self after 20 pages of arguing you did in fact not get it..

There is no such thing as energy creating matter, which is readily apparent from the fact that you can't even prove this assertion and continuously avoid it. Idiot. LOVE YOU!

Thats because you have no idea really what im talking about and use correlation to justify your own ineptness to understand what is being talked about in a logical manner .. hence why you sware and justify it by means of being smart when in fact your not..

Smarter than your idiotic ass, hence why I haven't been banned. Can't ban someone who show's an idiot that he's an idiot no matter how many time's he repeats the same BS garbage. How's that feel? You feeling more intelligent yet?

and here were in fact you are wrong.. because your limited to how you think.. as i pointed out

Your a complete moron for not realizing that this line of argumentation can be used against you. Use that nugget man, it's not an expensive paper weight.

So you was a mistake? LOL no..

Nope, I was born from the action of my two parents. Not from the actions of some mythical intelligent universe. Idiot.

who the bloody hell made the universe YOU? no.. who is OBSERVING THE UNIVERSE SIREX?? WE ARE

The universe existed prior to you and I, as well as our parents. Please don't be a narcissistic moron. Unless you have conclusive evidence that it hadn't existed prior to that.

WHO MADE US SIREX? WHAT DO YOU LIVE IN SIREX??

What do you mean by WHO?

THE UNIVERSE

Contrary to idiotic belief, the universe as a whole is not a WHO. You god damn moron.

did you never ever do math? or bother to think that the very think yo

Moot argument as neither have you.

and dont come with the insults and name calling because if i was honest its so imature.. its a wonder your still on ATS with the amount of childish insults you give out.

It is perfectly honest. You argue like blatant idiot, you get called an idiot. I don't control you as much as I wish I could.

and dont justify them because you cant even understand a topic.. its a FALLACY [/qupte]

Don't argue fallacies if you don't understand what a logical fallacy is. Moron.

reply to post by sirnex

Hypocritical mutha... No, it's not I, it's you. Please don't misrepresent me unless you want me to quote you throughout a variety of threads on this one.

me? but i just said its not??? i said you assume it?? well feel free if you want ?
nothing stopping you my good man

No, I was created by my mom and dad fcking one night as much as I don't want to think about that. The universe as a *whole* had nothing to do with the two of them fcking. Unless you can show it did. Moron. LOVE YOU!

well seens as the universe created life then i guess it has a lot to do with it more so coz your able to type in "reality" ? and i love you to tho your a pain in the bottom!

Basically, because your an idiot. I don't make the rules. I just enforce them. You argue like an idiot, you get treated like an idiot. Either think before you post, or don't post at all.

now thats not a nice "logical" come back is it? even for you my little sirex ( big hugs) lol

There is no such thing as energy creating matter, which is readily apparent from the fact that you can't even prove this assertion and continuously avoid it. Idiot. LOVE YOU!

Yet in the other thread you said "engery is just a function of matter"

so without engery you would not get matter would you? uness you know something i dont ? i love you 2

Smarter than your idiotic ass, hence why I haven't been banned. Can't ban someone who show's an idiot that he's an idiot no matter how many time's he repeats the same BS garbage. How's that feel? You feeling more intelligent yet?

But i have not been banned as im talking to you? LOL ??? er feel kinda loved up with all your i loves youss kinda things ?

or is that you just igore what i say and insult me as a easy option? hmm wonder what? one..

Your a complete moron for not realizing that this line of argumentation can be used against you. Use that nugget man, it's not an expensive paper weight.

Yet you provide none other than insults ? and change the subject via your "very basic" method.. yes you got it im on to you matey

Nope, I was born from the action of my two parents. Not from the actions of some mythical intelligent universe. Idiot.

yet again you use your mother and your farther as "stand points" for creation

very simplistic if one is to "look at your logic" not that you show any.. but still funny to read. and yes i can read tho my typing is crap.

The universe existed prior to you and I, as well as our parents. Please don't be a narcissistic moron. Unless you have conclusive evidence that it hadn't existed prior to that.

and this my little logical friend is where YOU become the hunted and not the hunter.. point in case..

Nope, I was born from the action of my two parents. Not from the actions of some mythical intelligent universe. Idiot.

That was You who said it correct??? No lets move on be for you start lobbing the toys out of your pramm mr sirex ... The universe did indeed exsist befor us...because it MADE US or did you forget that?

And be for you go round with your 2 most used words narcasist and fallacey i suggest you look them up

Now lets continue..

What do you mean by WHO?

thank you .. so why would the universe be "intelligent" or do you mean conscious? hmm? oh nvm .... part b..

Contrary to idiotic belief, the universe as a whole is not a WHO. You god damn moron.

so what is it then? i mean you are observing it are you not? would mean WHO = YOU

not the sharpest tool in the box are you? tho its nice to see you come across as one..

neways..

It is perfectly honest. You argue like blatant idiot, you get called an idiot. I don't control you as much as I wish I could.

Yes i do by people with ignorance and no clue what they are talking abotu who result in calling people names rather than admit they are in fact wrong

Oh forgot

LOVE YOU TOO

reply to post by 13579


He forgot to read the warning label about pontifications lasting more than 20 pages before he took the blue pills. Easily forgivable but still requires immediate medical attention.

I don't have to watch the videos to understand that this is great stuff after reading your post.

reply to post by 13579

me? but i just said its not??? i said you assume it?? well feel free if you want ?
nothing stopping you my good man

Ah OK, so you think the universe is you, but you know the universe -> you -> not intelligent. OK, I misunderstood you there.

well seens as the universe created life then i guess it has a lot to do with it more so coz your able to type in "reality" ? and i love you to tho your a pain in the bottom!

No, the universe as a *whole* didn't have much to do with it. AH, see how I emphasized *whole* in this thread too?

now thats not a nice "logical" come back is it? even for you my little sirex ( big hugs) lol

If I were arguing like an idiot, then I would hope someone would point it out. Do unto others, right?

Yet in the other thread you said "engery is just a function of matter"

so without engery you would not get matter would you? uness you know something i dont ? i love you 2

Energy as a property/function of matter means that matter is what give's rise to 'energy'. Without matter imparting force/work upon other matter, we would have no energy. I've already explained this before, why is it still not sinking in? Do you just ignore all of science in order to make your idea's valid for yourself?

But i have not been banned as im talking to you? LOL ??? er feel kinda loved up with all your i loves youss kinda things ?

or is that you just igore what i say and insult me as a easy option? hmm wonder what? one..

I haven't ignored anything you've said. I've gone over everything you've said and shown exactly why it deserves to be called an idiotic argument. If anyone is ignoring anything, that would be you. I can't even get you to perform a simple task of citing sources to back up your assertions.

Yet you provide none other than insults ? and change the subject via your "very basic" method.. yes you got it im on to you matey

I shouldn't have to provide one as it's basic common sense.

yet again you use your mother and your farther as "stand points" for creation

very simplistic if one is to "look at your logic" not that you show any.. but still funny to read. and yes i can read tho my typing is crap.

Not for creation as a *whole*. There's that emphasized word again!

and this my little logical friend is where YOU become the hunted and not the hunter.. point in case..

That made no sense and was completely off the point of the quoted text.

That was You who said it correct??? No lets move on be for you start lobbing the toys out of your pramm mr sirex ... The universe did indeed exsist befor us...because it MADE US or did you forget that?

Wow, are you screwing with me or what!

Be happy knowing you make the universe work in a fundermental way and without you, it would not work.

So which is it?

so what is it then? i mean you are observing it are you not? would mean WHO = YOU

Hmm, this reminds me of something you've told me about asking questions and the answer being in the question already, or something to that effect. So let's look at the question again.

"so what is it then?"