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How to make the case for Israel and win

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posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 03:53 PM
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DG with all due respect, your idea of there being a middle ground goes out the window when you recognize that one of the two is a bully with a big stick. Sure, it is fair to recognize that both sides have played dirty in this conflict, but when you have one side consistently taking from the other with no regard for the well being of their host, you have to take a side, otherwise you are contributing to the illusion that this is a fair and just fight from the israeli camp's perspective. When you weigh the totality of property damage, land loss and lives lost there is clearly a victim and aggressor here... to say otherwise is anywhere from naive to delusional.

The name calling is to be expected, there is a lot of anger attached to this subject matter... and rightfully so. You have a group of people who think they are better then everyone else and can do as they please, no matter how wrong their convictions and actions may be i.e. stealing, lying, killing... then when their prisoners retaliate they use this to justify their past, current and future sadistic/evil actions.

This is a form of apartheid/racism, plan and simple.




posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 03:41 AM
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Originally posted by The Blind Eye
DG with all due respect, your idea of there being a middle ground goes out the window when you recognize that one of the two is a bully with a big stick. Sure, it is fair to recognize that both sides have played dirty in this conflict, but when you have one side consistently taking from the other with no regard for the well being of their host, you have to take a side, otherwise you are contributing to the illusion that this is a fair and just fight from the israeli camp's perspective. When you weigh the totality of property damage, land loss and lives lost there is clearly a victim and aggressor here... to say otherwise is anywhere from naive to delusional.

The name calling is to be expected, there is a lot of anger attached to this subject matter... and rightfully so. You have a group of people who think they are better then everyone else and can do as they please, no matter how wrong their convictions and actions may be i.e. stealing, lying, killing... then when their prisoners retaliate they use this to justify their past, current and future sadistic/evil actions.

This is a form of apartheid/racism, plan and simple.


It's not really a matter of ignoring current events. It's more about UNDERSTANDING them. Let's flashback to the year 2000. Every single day Palestinian suicide bombers are attempting to kill Israeli citizens in public venues. Bus stops, shopping malls, discos, restaurants. Every single day a faction of Palestinian terrorists are instilling fear into the people living within the Israeli region.

There was no ATS back then. But let's imagine there was. If you were hearing on the news that Israelis were dying from suicide bombings every day, would you not condemn these actions? Would there be threads about how Palestinians were trying to wipe out Israeli civilians? More importantly, BEFORE these events were there roadblocks and checkpoints, and security on such a massive scale as there are now?

This conflict might seem like a classic "Bully vs. Victim" situation to you, but that's not how it actually is. Firstly, from a militarily and financial sense, yes Israelis are better off than the average Palestinian, largely thanks to the backing of a powerful nation, USA. But remember that since it was created, Israel has survived in a region surrounded by resentful neighbours. They have had to defy odds to maintain their identity and security over a number of years.

Try and think of it from the Israeli perspective. You are surrounded by hostile countries, some of which have publically stated they wish for you to be destroyed. You have had coalitions of surrounding countries planning to wage war on you. Your biggest allies are halfway across the world. A series of terrorist attacks are happening to your citizens. Your average citizens are not safe at public venues and there is a large amount of fear instilled into them. Measures are put into place that make it harder for Palestinian terrorists to instil fear into the minds of Israelis. The measures are severe, but the results are that risks of attacks have decreased substantially.

Why pretend this conflict STARTED only 7 years ago? Don't you think this is dishonest and counter-productive to finding truth in the matter?

[edit on 2/1/2010 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 04:07 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


To understand it if you go back to year 2000 it was the rise of Second Intifada was the second Palestinian uprising, a period of intensified Palestinian-Israeli violence, which began in late September 2000. The death toll, including both military and civilian, is estimated to be 5,500 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis, as well as 64 foreign citizenswww.btselem.org....



12-year-old Palestinian Muhammad al-Durrah became an icon of the Palestinian uprising in 2000 when he was killed on September 30, 2000 after being caught in a crossfire. Controversies continue over whether Palestinians or the Israeli Defense Forces killed him, or whether he even died at all.

en.wikipedia.org...




But all this does not even start here...it started on November 2, 1917

Balfour Declaration 1917: British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour sends a letter to Lord Rothschild, President of the Zionist Federation, declaring his government would "view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish"


The declaration stated: "His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

The background for the Declaration: At the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of the Zionist movement, including Dr. Chaim Weizmann and Nahum Sokolow, had tried to recruit Great Britain in promoting the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael. Britain was aiming to conquer Eretz Yisrael during the war in order to guarantee its control over the northern Suez Canal. The declaration was a means by which to raise American-Jewish support in the American war effort, as well as Russian-Jewish support in the continuation of the war against Germany.

www.knesset.gov.il...

[edit on 2-1-2010 by December_Rain]



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 04:15 AM
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reply to post by December_Rain
 


And why shouldn't there be a Jewish state in the Middle East. The establishment of a Jewish state is every bit justified as the establishment of any Muslim state.

Considering the continuous Syrian occupation of Lebanon, it is clear who the bully is. Considering the state sanctioned rape of Christians in Egypt,it is clear who the bully is, and it is Islam.

Edit to add

The reason for the constant call to destroy Israel is clear, Islam refuses to tolerate a state in the Middle East that is not controlled by Islam. Heck they are still trying to take over India, and the rest of the world.



[edit on 2-1-2010 by poet1b]



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 05:30 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Not at all, if people already living there would themselves make it Jewish. Sikh, Tao,etc any state they should.

For eg. India was under British rule also, would it been right to import all Australians and establish a New Australia in India? If the Indians already living there would have wanted to make it a Christian/ Australian state then it would have been okay.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 05:34 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
And why shouldn't there be a Jewish state in the Middle East. The establishment of a Jewish state is every bit justified as the establishment of any Muslim state.

Considering the continuous Syrian occupation of Lebanon, it is clear who the bully is. Considering the state sanctioned rape of Christians in Egypt,it is clear who the bully is, and it is Islam.

The reason for the constant call to destroy Israel is clear, Islam refuses to tolerate a state in the Middle East that is not controlled by Islam. Heck they are still trying to take over India, and the rest of the world.


Happy New Year.

The Arabs in the Middle East have a particular problem with what they perceive as emasculation. Being defeated by Israel in outright wars. Add to that the transformation of an underpopulated malaria infested semi-desert strip of land into a progressive vibrant economy and culture in a few decades.

While the rest of the region stagnates on all planes despite the infusion of vast oil wealth in the same time frame.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


If you look at the birth rates of Muslims inside of Israel, it is clear that within a few decades they are are going to have a hard time with over population. There is a clear goal to outbreed host countries of any Muslim population, which is why birthrates remain so high in India.

All Western nations would be foolish not to start developing strict immigration limits and rules to prevent things from getting worse than they already are in many countries.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Why pretend this conflict STARTED only 7 years ago? Don't you think this is dishonest and counter-productive to finding truth in the matter?


No one is pretending here, i have the whole timeline in my assessment.

In direct reply,
I think it is dishonest and counter-productive to write off their anger as unjustified.

Mind you that i am not condoning or approving the violence but i do acknowledge the many empty-promises that were sold to the palestinians and the deaf ear and blind eye the israeli gov turned to their needs and wishes for a fair and just compromise in the sharing of land and resources. When you have someone swindling you and pushing you around your own land to the point that each passing year is noticeably worst then the last... you are going to naturally want to kick some tail.

[edit on 2-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by December_Rain
reply to post by poet1b
 


Not at all, if people already living there would themselves make it Jewish. Sikh, Tao,etc any state they should.

For eg. India was under British rule also, would it been right to import all Australians and establish a New Australia in India? If the Indians already living there would have wanted to make it a Christian/ Australian state then it would have been okay.


No it wouldnt be ok but history proves you wrong there were sews in Israel they were just not recognized by the British as anything other than subjects.Then they were granted self rule. As for Palestinians guess what there Syrians who moved there to help build Israel.

Relatively few Arabs were in the region when the Jews returned in 1917. Shortly before then, the population of the Holy Land was estimated at about 650,000 permanent residents. In the late 1800s, out of a population in Jerusalem of about forty thousand, most were Jews, the rest Christians of various shades and only a few were Arabs. Only after the Jews established their nation in 1948 did the masses of these Arabic peoples feel drawn to this particular territory. The population of Palestinians swelled dramatically after the Jews brought about vast improvements in agricultural production. They established irrigation and re-introduced efficient means of agriculture.

Understandably, many took advantage of gainful employment provided by the Jews in developing the land and building a needed infrastructure for the tiny nation of Israel. These local laborers were called fellahin, or agricultural workers. Previously, the Arabs had only used primitive methods. Without the innovations introduced by the Jews, the fellahin had been restrained by their own superstitions, which prohibited advancements and efficiency in agriculture. So, initially, a mutual benefit existed, and the two peoples worked together.

The ugly truth no land was stolen Jews have all ways been there they just kept loosing there identity to different nations as they were conquered throughout history. they didn't get there identity back until the British once again established the Jewish state.

This is in a large part why Israelis don't and wont give up any of the holy lands.History has taught them to fight and it took 2000 years but let me say there good at it. Look at the six day war they fought Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria.They were vastly out numbered but yet they won ,now that these nations realize that the military option is out that leaves subversive measures.Thus people in Hamas are paid to keep the conflict going which leads to people being hurt on both sides.Dont kid yourselves its all about the money as is everything in life.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 10:14 PM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 


When you paint the picture of israelis being the light of the middle east, bringing them all out of the stone age with advanced agricultural/infrastructure and new jobs, it makes the palestinians sound like really ungrateful backwards primitive jerks. They should be loving not hating... something must be wrong with these people... right? Now i understand why the israelis treat them like children, animals and in some uglier cases... like garbage.


[edit on 2-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by The Blind Eye
reply to post by dragonridr
 


When you paint the picture of israelis being the light of the middle east, bringing them all out of the stone age with advanced agricultural/infrastructure and new jobs, it makes the palestinians sound like really ungrateful backwards primitive jerks. They should be loving not hating... something must be wrong with these people... right? Now i understand why the israelis treat them like children, animals and in some uglier cases... like garbage.


[edit on 2-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]


Well I don't agree with a lot of there actions but i understand why Israelis are so stubborn and determined to maintain the Jewish state. They get beat by Babylonia then Egypt then along comes the Romans to occupy them and then after all that the British move in.They have been subjugated for thousands of years.Now that the shoe is on the other foot so to speak ill say they can be paranoid. But you know the old saying just because your paranoid doesn't mean someones not trying to kill you.


Most of there actions is explained by there fear of being conquered yet again.How else can you explain building a wall around there entire country.In truth i would love it if they would just close there borders and stop playing this game.The Palestinians need to grow up and stop depending on Israel there supposed enemy for everything.

Israel supplies there water electricity food and medical supplies If Hamas wanted to end this stop buying guns build desalination plants power plants and make a serious agricultural effort to feed there people.But sadly for the Palestinian people this isn't about improving there lives they are pawns in a much bigger game.

[edit on 1/2/10 by dragonridr]



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 11:50 PM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 


Israel has a strangle hold on palestinian commerce and controls all supply routes and transportation routes... and you can't understand why they are in a state of dependence? ... and to add insult to injury, that you would even go so far as to say/believe that they lack maturity/responsibility for their current standard of living? Sorry to say, but this level of arrogance is based solely on ignorance. It's as if you know nothing about what the palestinians have gone through and continue to go through under the boot of the israel gov. This here is the crux of the problem. People of privilege blind to their own part in the continued degradation of a less fortunate group of people.

As for this whole rational for having a jewish homeland, some of the reasons you cited make sense on a emotional and egotistical level but why does this religious and race based venture have to come at such a great cost to the palestinian people?



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 01:35 AM
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reply to post by The Blind Eye
 


Yeah, and Syria has an even tighter strangle hold on Lebanon, which was designated as a Christian Nation, and subsequently taken over by a Muslim nation.

Tell me, are you fine with the recently reported wide spread, state sanctioned, rape of Christian girls in Egypt?

When Islam stops terrorizing the world, then maybe people who give an ounce of credence to the Palestinian situation.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by The Blind Eye
 


Ah your not telling the truth first don't put words in my mouth your showing bias. Second yes the Palestinians need to take responsibility for there own.If Hamas would spend half the money they do on guns and rockets on building infrastructure we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. They dont have to depend on Israel other middle east countries get along fine without Israel.

The problem the Palestinians run into is even countries like Egypt and Syria keep there borders closed to them.Ever wonder why Egypt built a huge wall.Ive been to Egypt they consider Palestinians to be nothing but terrorists. The PLO and Hamas has caused so much trouble that Egypt is not about to jeopardize there tourism industry and that is why they keep armed guards on there border. Doesn't sound much different than Israel does it?


There only hope to break this cycle is to build infrastructure the Gaza strip was one of the most beautiful areas in the med used to have very expensive resorts.Then it became unstable with the PLO taking hold and now theres nothing left. Hamas at first tried to correct this they were working on schools hospitals but it turns out that was a ploy to wrestle power from the PLO so now there right back into the same boat just a different captain.

Now for you if you have problems with Israelis (who doesn't) thats fine but don't try to shift all the blame This fiasco has been caused by leaders on both sides more concerned with saber rattling than solving the problems.Bottom line when the Palestinians have had enough this will end i think the Israelis are all ready there. They just don't know what to do anymore and resort to the easiest method of control force.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by December_Rain
reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


To understand it if you go back to year 2000 it was the rise of Second Intifada was the second Palestinian uprising, a period of intensified Palestinian-Israeli violence, which began in late September 2000. The death toll, including both military and civilian, is estimated to be 5,500 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis, as well as 64 foreign citizenswww.btselem.org....



12-year-old Palestinian Muhammad al-Durrah became an icon of the Palestinian uprising in 2000 when he was killed on September 30, 2000 after being caught in a crossfire. Controversies continue over whether Palestinians or the Israeli Defense Forces killed him, or whether he even died at all.

en.wikipedia.org...




But all this does not even start here...it started on November 2, 1917

Balfour Declaration 1917: British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour sends a letter to Lord Rothschild, President of the Zionist Federation, declaring his government would "view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish"


The declaration stated: "His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

The background for the Declaration: At the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of the Zionist movement, including Dr. Chaim Weizmann and Nahum Sokolow, had tried to recruit Great Britain in promoting the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael. Britain was aiming to conquer Eretz Yisrael during the war in order to guarantee its control over the northern Suez Canal. The declaration was a means by which to raise American-Jewish support in the American war effort, as well as Russian-Jewish support in the continuation of the war against Germany.

www.knesset.gov.il...

[edit on 2-1-2010 by December_Rain]



The Balfour Declaration is precisely what spawned this entire subject. It's not only the most important part of this debate, but the point least discussed as well. To be pro Israel you must completely ignore this document, as well as all the terror it brought with it. This single, illegal, document created much more horror than what was caused by it's creation of Israel. Through bribery, blackmail and deception, this immoral agreement had a horrible effect on many nations.

It served to bribe England, while facing total annihilation, by promising American military support guaranteeing them victory over Germany in WW1. Despite the fact Germany was Americas ally and Americans were against involvement in WW1. England quietly agreed to these terms to provide half of an innocent Palestine as a Jewish owned state.

A massive smear campaign was launched against Germany by way of the mainstream media in the US. Our former friends in Germany were denounced baby killers and worse in a successful effort to persuade American opinion on WW1 involvement. Although the Germans offered peace instead of annihilation to their all but destroyed military, England chose the despicable Balfour Declaration instead. The rest is history!

Germany only understood Americas betrayal when this document finally came to light.

I've never heard those claiming to be pro Israel be able to explain the legitimacy of the Balfour Declaration? How can you defend this? It would be like Canada making a deal with Cuba to own California. Not acceptable!



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 09:32 AM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 


So what you are saying is... all that palestinians have to do is reinvest in their own confined space. This is easy to say/do, if the palestinians had wealthy immigrants moving in to support such expenses, but who is going to make such an unstable investment in a land where your property/investment could be taken away from you, where your use of utilities are restricted and where the flow of commerce is restricted... and the populous has no money to spend on your products or services?

On your note of other arab countries putting up fences, their fear is not terrorism, their fear is that such a migration of people in need would have a very adverse effect on their economies. i.e. for Egypt to loose it's tourist trade would be devastating ... but this is all off target from the real problem at hand (such as most of your detours and derailings)... what we should be asking ourselves is why do so many palestinians want to uproot their families and abandon their homes? ...and for those who choose to stay why do so many go to such extremes (resort to violence) to stand their ground and express their discontent with the powers that be?

[edit on 3-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by The Blind Eye
 


Contrary to your belief Palestinians are not held in concentration camps and do have the ability to leave.I work with a man from gaza they have the ability to leave your lying again. In fact they can immagrate to the United States if they so choose!

[Federal Register: February 4, 2009 (Volume 74, Number 22)]
[Presidential Documents]
[Page 6115]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr04fe09-106]



Presidential Documents




[[Page 6115]]


Presidential Determination No. 2009-15 of January 27,
2009


Unexpected Urgent Refugee and Migration Needs
Related To Gaza

Memorandum for the Secretary of State

By the authority vested in me by the Constitution and
the laws of the United States, including section
2(c)(1) of the Migration and Refugee Assistance Act of
1962 (the ``Act''), as amended (22 U.S.C. 2601), I
hereby determine, pursuant to section 2(c)(1) of the
Act, that it is important to the national interest to
furnish assistance under the Act in an amount not to
exceed $20.3 million from the United States Emergency
Refugee and Migration Assistance Fund for the purpose
of meeting unexpected and urgent refugee and migration
needs, including by contributions to international,
governmental, and nongovernmental organizations and
payment of administrative expenses of Bureau of
Population, Refugees, and Migration of the Department
of State, related to humanitarian needs of Palestinian
refugees and conflict victims in Gaza.

You are authorized and directed to publish this
memorandum in the Federal Register.


(Presidential Sig.)

THE WHITE HOUSE,

Washington, January 27, 2009

As much as you would like to think Palestinians have no control and are hapless children they are not. If i were Palestinian your attitudes would insult me you basically state they are unable to take care of themselves.


Oh and why do so many Palestinians want to leave easy answer there government doesn't care about there people.Hamas steals relief shipments intended for the people to continue there fight with Israel at all costs.This causes the Palestinian people to suffer severely.As i stated before the only way things will change is if they throw Hamas out and start spending that foreign aid on infrastructure and make the area stable for international commerce. Until then they are doomed to repeat the same old pattern over and over. step one terrorists attack Israel. Step 2 Israel steps down on the border. Step 3 they launch rockets at Israel step 4 Israel sends in troops to clear out the threat killing many innocent people. step 5 they reopen the border due to international pressures. Go back to step 1!


[edit on 1/3/10 by dragonridr]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by dragonridr
Contrary to your belief Palestinians are not held in concentration camps and do have the ability to leave.I work with a man from gaza they have the ability to leave your lying again. In fact they can immagrate to the United States if they so choose!

I never said they are held in concentration camps, i said they are held captive in a type of appartheid. Calling me a liar on top of this error in assumption, is just another weak detour/derail attempt.


Originally posted by dragonridr
As much as you would like to think Palestinians have no control and are hapless children they are not. If i were Palestinian your attitudes would insult me you basically state they are unable to take care of themselves.

I never claimed they had no options, i just stated the options that exist in their reality, not the israelis' reality of unlimited opportunities... which should not be confused as the same for palestinians... yet you apparently have full heartedly/naively embraced as one and the same. Citing the USA's open door policy as a viable solution, just reconfirms this fact.

...and further reconfirmed when presenting the following inquiry...


Originally posted by The Blind Eye...what we should be asking ourselves is why do so many palestinians want to uproot their families and abandon their homes? ...and for those who choose to stay why do so many go to such extremes (resort to violence) to stand their ground and express their discontent with the powers that be?

You once again completely side step these valid questions that are at the core of the prolem... by blaming it all on hamas? ...how about answering the questions instead? ...i know, you can't do it without incriminating the israel gov... which oddly enough the U.N., amnesty international and reliable/objective jewish scholars from around the world (as the AIPAC & ADL foundly call Self-Hating-Jews) don't seem to have a problem in doing, for they go by a different set of measures that factor in all solid existing data (not to be confused with non-sense people imagine in their .s) and filter out the disinfo. If you consider me "bias", as "bias" as the true authorities on the conflict) then i'll wear this label as a badge of honor.

I haven't bothered to check yet but i would say, based on the responses thus far, that you are getting anywhere from a B+ to an A+ on your effort in applying the OP's check list.


[edit on 3-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by Zerbst
 


Why in the world shouldn't an Israeli state and a Christian state be established after the break up of The Turkish Ottoman empire, and why should all of this land be given to Muslim control?

Just because Arabs conquered this area doesn't mean they get to control it forever.

Here is the real history.

countrystudies.us...


In a letter to McMahon enclosed with a letter dated July 14, 1915, from Abdullah, Husayn specified an area for Arab independence under the "Sharifian Arab Government" consisting of the Arabian Peninsula (except Aden) and the Fertile Crescent of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. In his letter of October 24, 1915, to Husayn, McMahon, on behalf of the British government, declared British support for postwar Arab independence, subject to certain reservations and exclusions of territory not entirely Arab or concerning which Britain was not free "to act without detriment to the interests of her ally, France." The territories assessed by the British as not purely Arab included: "The districts of Mersin and Alexandretta, and portions of Syria lying to the west of the districts of Damascus, Homs, Hama, and Aleppo." As with the later Balfour Declaration, the exact meaning was not clear, although Arab spokesmen since then have usually maintained that Palestine was within the pledged area of independence. Although the Husayn- McMahon correspondence was not legally binding on either side, on June 5, 1916, Husayn launched the Arab Revolt against Turkey and in October declared himself "King of the Arabs."


By what right must an descendant of Mohammad rule over all of the Middle East?

Why shouldn't Christians and Jews control their own states in their ancient holy lands?



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 12:44 AM
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reply to post by The Blind Eye
 


Apparently you didn't read my whole post i answered your question i suggest you go re read it again. But let me say this the Palestinians have just as much control over the conflict as the Israelis.To try to play it off that the poor Palestinians are being picked on is silly. I agree that Israel goes in kills innocent people this happens in war. And don't kid yourself Hamas is at war with Israel. To try to make them out as a defender for the people is a joke.

And you want to point out all these organizations that say how bad Israel is well guess what Hamas doesn't fair any better in fact id say worse. Israelis has nothing to gain by continuing this fight. In truth Hamas doesn't either Israel isn't going anywhere and they all ready run there country. This is nothing more than futile struggle to evict the Israelis from the holy land.

In a way i wish they would leave all and all it would help the United States but since that isn't going to happen. Then that leaves only one option the Palestinians need to throw the PLO and Hamas out (neither group is really Palestinian just another play thing for Syria) And take all that foreign aid and build a country they can be proud of.Trust me Israel wont bother them if they were not being attacked by terrorists and rockets, Not because of the goodness of the hearts but because provocation wont be there thus giving them no excuse. Theres so much bad blood and death on both sides that until all excuses cease there is no stopping this fight its a pattern played out over and over.



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