It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Climategate deniers like to point to the peer review process and support of thousands of scientists as evidence for man-caused global warming. But more researchers are talking about their own unpleasant encounters with the cozy cabal of global warming cops who routinely rigged peer review, giving each other a boost while conspiring to quash publication of anything from skeptics.
Yes. Practically anyone can “edit” Wiki. It does have “reviewers”, but more to the point he stated “source”…not “writers” as you inserted.
He was referring to the sources for the written material at the end of the Wikipedia page which do in fact link to scientific research or “scientists”.
Portraying the conclusions of the vast majority of scientists that are actually qualified to analyze Global Warming as Al Gore’s pet issue…well that is..how did you put it?
In actuality the person who most prminently brought Global Warming to the attention of the public was James Hansen, head of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies.
Originally posted by malcr
In all viewpoints, left-right, religious-atheist etc etc there are extremists. Those who like to distort information to their own ends. Now you can be a moron and listen to these people or not.
NB Listening does not mean agreeing you could have an opposite viewpoint that listens as above! only dismissing the odd extremists and listening to reasonable people is the answer.
So re: connelly a person known for extreme viewpoints and incidentally had editorial privileges revoked for reasons NOT related to GW articles!!!!!!!!!!!! point to note for those who can think.
Next point: wikipedia is known to have it's problems due the method used to populate it i.e. anyone can! So nobody should use wikipedia as the definitive reference. Point to note for those who can think.
Finally : read some goddam scientific studies done by people who have qualifications in the subject matter. That means the medieval warming is well documented, understood and explained and DOES NOT detract from modern human induced global warming. I can understand the temptation to hide it though since most people won't take the time to read and understand instead they will "educate" themselves with the tabloid headlines "Medieval global warming not man made". Note how that headline is 100% accurate and yet worded in a way that implies modern warming is therefore not man made as well. But oh boy how dumb to believe the inference!
Aren't you skeptics ashamed of the current tactics employed? All this mud slinging in the hope that some of it sticks. It's disgusting and you should be ashamed.
Why can't you provide factual researched evidence?
Originally posted by heyo
The rest of your post is just ad hominem attacks.
Naturally I was surprised to read on Wikipedia that Oreskes’s work had been vindicated and that, for instance, one of her most thorough critics, British scientist and publisher Bennie Peiser, not only had been discredited but had grudgingly conceded Oreskes was right.
I checked with Peiser, who said he had done no such thing. I then corrected the Wikipedia entry, and advised Peiser that I had done so.
Peiser wrote back saying he couldn’t see my corrections on the Wikipedia page. I made the changes again, and this time confirmed that the changes had been saved. But then, in a twinkle, they were gone again. I made other changes. And others. They all disappeared shortly after they were made.
Turns out that on Wikipedia some folks are more equal than others. Kim Dabelstein Petersen is a Wikipedia “editor” who seems to devote a large part of his life to editing reams and reams of Wikipedia pages to pump the assertions of global-warming alarmists and deprecate or make disappear the arguments of skeptics.
Originally posted by wx4caster
4- man made co2 emmisions are simply not physically capable of causing the increase in global temperatures.
this froma scientific stand point only proves that one of the following hypothesis is correct.
1) an increase in co2 has caused an increase in global temperature
2) an increase in temperature has caused an increase in co2
3) an outside variable is causing both global temperatures and co2 to increase.
now before we can even THINK about trying to say that the industrial age has caused it, we have to decide which one is in fact the real scenario.
Letters to Nature
Nature 410, 355-357 (15 March 2001) | doi:10.1038/35066553; Received 17 May 2000; Accepted 15 January 2001
Increases in greenhouse forcing inferred from the outgoing longwave radiation spectra of the Earth in 1970 and 1997
John E. Harries, Helen E. Brindley, Pretty J. Sagoo & Richard J. Bantges
1.Space and Atmospheric Physics Group, Blackett Laboratory, Imperial College, London SW7 2BW, UK
The evolution of the Earth's climate has been extensively studied1, 2, and a strong link between increases in surface temperatures and greenhouse gases has been established3, 4. But this relationship is complicated by several feedback processes—most importantly the hydrological cycle—that are not well understood5, 6, 7. Changes in the Earth's greenhouse effect can be detected from variations in the spectrum of outgoing longwave radiation8, 9, 10, which is a measure of how the Earth cools to space and carries the imprint of the gases that are responsible for the greenhouse effect11, 12, 13. Here we analyse the difference between the spectra of the outgoing longwave radiation of the Earth as measured by orbiting spacecraft in 1970 and 1997. We find differences in the spectra that point to long-term changes in atmospheric CH4, CO2 and O3 as well as CFC-11 and CFC-12. Our results provide direct experimental evidence for a significant increase in the Earth's greenhouse effect that is consistent with concerns over radiative forcing of climate.
and once you do that, try explaining to the world why it has done so at leat 4 other times in the last million years, AND how it did so with no modern human industrialization. I guess there were many many more animal farts than we could ever imagine.
I would suggest you need to brush up on the physics.
2) not required, we release twice as much CO2 required to account for current increases in atmospheric CO2. Releasing 30ish billion tonnes of CO2 is all we need to know. However, even if it was a normal ice-age scenario with CO2 as feedback, this doesn't negate the physical properties of CO2. That is, even when acting as a feedback CO2 still acts as a GHG.
3) See 2. Although it doesn't negate other variables forcing temps. We can add in other GHGs (CH4 etc), for instance.
1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Releasing copious amounts leads to alterations in radiative balance. An effect that has been observed in the atmosphere and was predicted over 100 years ago.
We can see the alterations of outgoing longwave radiation...
Letters to Nature
Nature 410, 355-357 (15 March 2001) | doi:10.1038/35066553; Received 17 May 2000; Accepted 15 January 2001
Increases in greenhouse forcing inferred from the outgoing longwave radiation spectra of the Earth in 1970 and 1997
John E. Harries, Helen E. Brindley, Pretty J. Sagoo & Richard J. Bantges
1.Space and Atmospheric Physics Group, Blackett Laboratory, Imperial College, London SW7 2BW, UK
The evolution of the Earth's climate has been extensively studied1, 2, and a strong link between increases in surface temperatures and greenhouse gases has been established3, 4. But this relationship is complicated by several feedback processes—most importantly the hydrological cycle—that are not well understood5, 6, 7. Changes in the Earth's greenhouse effect can be detected from variations in the spectrum of outgoing longwave radiation8, 9, 10, which is a measure of how the Earth cools to space and carries the imprint of the gases that are responsible for the greenhouse effect11, 12, 13. Here we analyse the difference between the spectra of the outgoing longwave radiation of the Earth as measured by orbiting spacecraft in 1970 and 1997. We find differences in the spectra that point to long-term changes in atmospheric CH4, CO2 and O3 as well as CFC-11 and CFC-12. Our results provide direct experimental evidence for a significant increase in the Earth's greenhouse effect that is consistent with concerns over radiative forcing of climate.
and other studies indicate the increase in downward longwave radiation.
and once you do that, try explaining to the world why it has done so at leat 4 other times in the last million years, AND how it did so with no modern human industrialization. I guess there were many many more animal farts than we could ever imagine.
For someone who presents themselves as some sort of authority, that's a ridiculous logically fallacious strawman. The sort I'd expect from the run of the mill layman.
Just because people died of heart failure naturally in the past doesn't preclude my causing heart failure by pumping you full of KCl.
No-one but deniers propose that if humans are influencing climate now, they must have influenced all past climate.
Originally posted by wx4caster
Orly?
So you are saying that humans are producing an increase in co2 sufficient enough to produce a rise in earth’s temperature?
In the earth, a little less than 28% of earth’s spherical face is occupied by humans.
Of that 28%, there is only about 30% of that land that is inhabited (don’t forget Antarctica)
So 8.4% of the earth’s spherical surface is inhabited. But of that there is a portion that does not have any more co2 emissions than pre global warming.
Now. Seeing as co2 is a trace gas making up less than ½ of a tenth percent. (or less than 1/2500th ) of the atmosphere, man that gas has GOT to be stopped!
But wait there is more!
Of that 1/2500th how much are earthlings responsible for? About 5% or so.
That means that 0.000019% of the earth’s atmosphere is co2 that is produced by humans. AND that 0.000019% is supposed to be raising earth’s temperature enough to cause global catastrophe.
Now… knowing that… just what kind of co2 are we producing? Super evil co2? Perhaps man made co2 is a more efficient heater than naturally produced co2…
Now brush me up on my physics good sir, and show me how 0.000019% of the earth’s atmosphere is going to kill us all.
Man, god forbid if we ever find a way to increase water vapor, or methane, or no2…
No that is NOT all we need to know, because 30ish billion tons doesn’t mean didly squat when you are talking atmospheric weight, and out of that “30ish billion tons” you quote, how much settles? Co2 is heavier than “air”, and unlike mmgw, scientific law tells us that heavier gases will settle over time, and in the troposphere, pollutants and particulates settle in a few days to a week. Now I understand that atmospheric mixing will keep some of the stuff a part of the mix, but still a portion of it will settle, and a portion of it will be used by plants and such.
Unfortunately it was written in January 2001, since this paper has been written, the earth has actually cooled… bad timing for the globe to turn on the ice box.
I also like how you have shown something that is out dated that supports your theory in an effort to sound right… WTG
If I die of a heart attack, I can be examined. Silly, there is no autopsy for earth, and we really do NOT understand exactly what is going on here. You don’t want to set and think about what cause the other warm periods before human co2 emission? Why not? They are observed and just as real as the one today, with higher levels of co2 and warmer temperatures. All minus the smoke stack.
I understand that if the world does warm that it would be bad. But what is worse is a bunch of politicians trying to tax people on the presumption that the earth is warming because humans are to blame, when the science is either not there, omitted, altered, or fabricated, in order to keep up the hysteria in the face of a near ten year cooling trend.
Now… please brush up my physics.
Originally posted by wx4caster
lol i dont need freshman classes, i have my degree already thank you, bachelors of science in meteorology from mississippi state, class of 01. and i am employed using my degree. i am AMS Certified, certified through the navy for not only surface weather technician, upper air technician, but also:
tactical forecaster
maritime forecaster
theater forecaster
aviation forecaster
strike forecaster
i have experience with weather regimes, not only in the US but also in the atlantic, middle east, and med.
ok so you want to see where we are at with past warming periods? here is one graphic
and one that reflects the actual cooling since 2001 vs the forecasted calamity.
i dont beat a straw man, or no one. just because i have valid points does not mean that we are beating anything.
why was the earth warmer before humans could have been the reason? and several times? in a cyclic manner?
yes CO2 settles. All things settle in the atmosphere.
there are vertical oscillations for sure, escpecially below the tropopause, and this can cause a lot of the heavier gases to remain mixed, but those vv's are not always sufficient.
now... you say that we increased the co2 by 105ppm and that we are responsible for 27% of the co2 in the atmosphere. ok. so 27% of .0038% (which is total amount of co2, it being a trace gas and all...) is 0.001% of the earths atmosphere. 1/1000th of a percent. that is what we humans are responsible for, and that 1/1000th of a percent is really going to cause all these horrible hurricanes and disasters???
and what am i on about 30 billion tons? well an average every day thunderstorms weish over a million tons if that gives you perspective. the real nasty ones can weigh as much as 10-15 million tons, and a hurricane can weigh as much as a trillion tons.
the oceans contain much much moer co2 than the air, so does the land. (although the ocean is much more stock full of the stuff), and there is a constant interchange of co2 back and forth between land water and air.
where are you getting this from? computer models?? "i thinks" from the science community???
i work with numerical models every day. the gfs is no good after 4-5 days or so, and even after 3 it is sketchy. anyone who forecasts beyond 3-5 days may as well throw darts. even good models like the nam, or nogaps (not my favorite, it is fnmoc) canadian models, they try to go out but to think that a computer can model atmospheric anything that far out with any degree of accuracy is fooling themselves.
i know climate is not weather. we have climo books that tell us what the conditions are supposed to be for this time of year, by month and season and so on...
you are not getting it at all.
you cannot prove that man made co2 emissions are causing the earth to warm, yet there are so many out there that try. i get it that pollution is bad. i have said that over and over. no one wants to made mud pies out of industrial sludge so to speak. we all want clean parks.
spare the human race the rod on this one because there is some outside force or variable that we are not seeing. i can say with a dereen of certainty that if we humans still rode horses and had no industrial works, that this increase in global temps would still be occuring, and so would the increase in co2.
we are talking trace gas, with eratic absorption windows. now nitrogen, or water vapor... thats completely different. co2?? come on man.
PNAS September 25, 2007 vol. 104 no. 39 15248-15253
Identification of human-induced changes in atmospheric moisture content
B. D. Santera,b, C. Mearsc, F. J. Wentzc, K. E. Taylora, P. J. Glecklera, T. M. L. Wigleyd, T. P. Barnette, J. S. Boylea, W. Brüggemannf, N. P. Gillettg, S. A. Kleina, G. A. Meehld, T. Nozawah, D. W. Piercee, P. A. Stotti, W. M. Washingtond, and M. F. Wehnerj
+ Author Affiliations
Abstract
Data from the satellite-based Special Sensor Microwave Imager (SSM/I) show that the total atmospheric moisture content over oceans has increased by 0.41 kg/m2 per decade since 1988. Results from current climate models indicate that water vapor increases of this magnitude cannot be explained by climate noise alone. In a formal detection and attribution analysis using the pooled results from 22 different climate models, the simulated “fingerprint” pattern of anthropogenically caused changes in water vapor is identifiable with high statistical confidence in the SSM/I data. Experiments in which forcing factors are varied individually suggest that this fingerprint “match” is primarily due to human-caused increases in greenhouse gases and not to solar forcing or recovery from the eruption of Mount Pinatubo. Our findings provide preliminary evidence of an emerging anthropogenic signal in the moisture content of earth's atmosphere.
Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Thank you for your experience, knowledge, and common sense. Your post makes some excellent points. I would take YOUR opinion over Melatonin's any day. You didn't have to, but you gave your credentials, and all Melatonin can do is mock you, and others, while admitting that his academic record is pathetic.
you both appear to be gut-thinkers.