Originally posted by Lillydale
Hmmmm....so which is it? The parts have all been cataloged by SN or they were not because the NTSB NEVER DOES THAT, it has NEVER BEEN DONE, is NOT BEING DONE HERE, and HAS NO NEED TO BE DONE. I guess I get confused when OS stories trip over each other.

I hope I'm not butting in here, but could you let us know what the FBI has said about the cataloging of the pieces and wreckage from the Pentagon impact?

I ask that because surely you have spoken to them and they have read you in on all the aspects of this ongoing terrorism investigation or else you wouldn't sound so certain that there has been no identification of the piece-parts of the aircraft.

And of course they are going to get in touch with you or CIT or PfT or Loose Change or some other lunatic organization to keep you updated on the investigation.

If they HAVEN'T kept you informed, how can you state that no pieces have been identified?

Originally posted by GhostR1der

Originally posted by hooper
As far as I know only the FDR was identified

Wouldn't they want to harp on about a matched serial number from landing gear or other hard airframe component? If you've never been close to any large passenger jet landing gear, you really begin to appreciate the engineering and strength of the landing gear, plus many other strong components. And the utter ridicule of not identifying multiple parts of a 100 tonne plane with a legitimate, scientifically proven, normal air crash investigation method - as well as with the WTC aircraft accident investigation sites!

Sorry, Ghost.

YOU are not listening. You are the amateur at crash investigations. Not the NTSB.

I posted a couple pages back a link to the book "FireFight" by Patrick Creed. Complete with an explanation of the decision that serializing all the parts was unnecessary.

Now 911files says that there are, nonetheless, a bunch of parts that are catalogued.

The EXPERTS determine the ID of the plane by completely different methods than those that might seem logical to amateurs.

But that's why they are experts. And amateurs are amateurs.

Tom



[edit on 22-12-2009 by thomk]

"You know, its like having a crazy person who is driving a car, screams "God is great"

Your blatantly unrelated, insulting and racist implication that Muslims are crazy and yell is God is great is noted and accepted as being completely irrelevant to this discussion. Although, I do not think it is irrelevant toward establishing the credibility of the writer.

"and, accelerating, plows into a group of people on the corner at 45mph, then into a parked car. Are the crime scene investigators and police going to pop the trunk and check the trunk light's S# and the cup holder's S# to see if it was for sure the same car that hit the people and then check the brakes to make sure that it wasn't just a brake failure, ignoring the rest of the car and blood and bodies and eyewitnesses?"

Interesting that you bring up the automobile accident analogy. Do you know what an insurance adjuster checks when he comes to appraise the damages to your crashed vehicle? The 17 digit VIN number, which is a serial number unique to all vehicles.

Do you know why he checks this VIN number and writes it on his appraisal? To check and make sure that you are the owner of the vehicle and that it was the actual vehicle involved in the accident. Standard stuff, no rocket science here.

I assume the same basic investigative principles apply for positively identifying airliners after accidents, such as checking serial numbers. Unless, of course, you do not want to positively identify the aircraft, just like you do not want to release any video evidence of the occurrence.

As for the statement about eyewitnesses verifying it was Flight 77 which allegedly crashed into the Pentagon, can someone please explain how any witness would know the Flight Number of an aircraft they allegedly witnessed crashing into a building? Is the Flight Number plastered in huge letters and numbers all over the exterior of the plane? This has to be one of the most off beat explanations of all time.

I thought this discussion was about positively identifying an aircraft using material evidence and serial numbers, not about witness statements and radar evidence. But then again, it is not difficult to see why certain individuals drifted the conversation off into such unrelated matters. Sometimes it is better to avoid answering a simple question than to make yourself look like a jackass by providing idiotic answers which have nothing to do with the question.

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by thomk
Long story short:

NTSB does not, and never has, used serial numbers of parts to identify planes. There are other, much more reliable methods, of determining the identity of any crashed plane.

"DOES NOT"

"NEVER HAS"

Thanks to Swingdangler on another thread...

According to Susan Stevenson of the NTSB on 12/26/2007
"Yes. NTSB investigators rarely encounter a scenario when the identification of an accident aircraft is not apparent. But during those occasions, investigators will record serial numbers of major components, and then contact the manufacturer of those components in an attempt to determine what aircraft the component was installed upon."

Sorry but why should I take your word for what the NTSB does or has ever done over someone from the NTSB telling us what the NTSB does or has ever done.

Maybe you need to stick to trolling the threads you can get away with lying in.

Thanks for demonstrating an ability to split irrelevant hairs.

OK, for your personal amusement:
"NTSB does not, and never has, used serial numbers of parts as their principle method to identify planes. There are other, much more reliable methods, of determining the identity of any crashed plane.

During those RARE OCCASIONS when the ID of the crashed plane is in doubt (such as when a WWII plane is found, or plane parts are found on the bottom of the ocean), the NTSB may use the S/N of parts to HELP ID the plane."

I stand by my original statement when applied to modern Commercial airliners. Those planes are tracked too well these days.

Of course, on 9/11, the ID of none of the planes was in doubt. And all the standards methods were used and adequate.

And I, frankly, don't give a rat's butt what you believe, Lilly.


Tom

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
I assume the same basic investigative principles apply ...

And that, right there, is what gets you guys into trouble.

You assume. But you never check your assumptions against that annoying thing called "the real world".

Just sayin'...

Tom

Originally posted by GenRadek
The plane that plunged into the Pentagon was no accident. Its quite obvious really. So no, it will not be treated as an accident. And there was quite a bit of debris from a Boeing 757 with AA markings. Also passenger DNA was recovered. So it was ID'd as flight 77. Question has been answered.

Yes we all know the DNA survived while the plane shredded and melted around it then created a fire so intense as to blow a hole in a wall. Thank goodness everyone, including the terrorist were in a pile in the back of the plane eh?

It was ID'd as flight 77? When? You say they found plane parts. Which part of AA marking or 757 specifically says AA77? I know, Barbara Olsen filled them in so they did not bother to check, right?

So I am just curious. At what point were they sure this was AA77 flown into the building by terrorists on purpose? Remember, this is a real investigation into a real terror attack so any of that -'it was obvious' junk will not fly. I would really like to know either a time or specific event at which they were sure this is what happened and decided there was no need to investigate the wreckage.

Oh, you know what else might be fun? Explaining how any of what you said jives with that fun little post about how the FBI spent forever identifying and cataloging every part.

Funny how this thread has two opposite OS explanations and none of you see the issue there.

A few points.

1. No photos w/sources of parts fouind at Pentagon.

2. Proper ID of the aircraft must be made for criminal investigation and for airlline to collect insurance.

3. If fire was hot enough to destroy plane it would have also destroyed DNA.

4. How did bodies end up in the building when according to reports passengers were taken to the back of the plane? The back of the plane did not get it into the building.

Originally posted by hooper
You snidely infer that DNA can not survive a plane crash.

THREAD TITLE "WHEN DID THEY ID AA77's PARTS.

I never said or inferred any such thing.

You are going to have to find the appropriate place and then supply a quote or something else. I am afraid that people have either forgotten how to read or just stopped trying.

Originally posted by dereks

Of course if they were identified as belonging to AA77, the CT's would have just claimed it was just another cover up, or the government changed the numbers, or they lied etc etc.

Yep, all one needs to do is look at the FDR example.

1- FDR's are found at the Pentagon and Shanksville, and supports the "os".
CT conclusion: they're faked, and therefore there is a need for a new investigation.

2- FDR's are NOT found at the WTC.
CT conclusion: we don't know what planes crashed into them, and therefore a new investigation is needed.

There is of course multiple lines of evidence that converge to show to ant rational person that 77 was in fact the plane that crashed at the Pentagon. Truthers dismiss all these mulitple lines of evidence with a similar hand wave.

Rational people realize that after these example, truthers WILL NOT accept any evidence that goes against their delusions.

From this thread alone...

Originally posted by Lillydale
I mean it took no time to get clear concise answers to where they got the DNA

They got one set of DNA from the remains of the bodies of the poor souls who were on those planes.

They got matching DNA from hair brushes, personal effects of those same people, if available. If not, they got DNA from close relatives.

I read that they got DNA comparisons for one of the hijackers from his luggage that did not make the plane.

They requested DNA samples from relatives of all the hijackers in the Middle East. I read that, not surprisingly, those relatives refused.

Originally posted by Lillydale
And the DNA proves...? That people with that DNA one existed. So far there is not one credible story of how the DNA survived, its chain of custody,

Inference #1 that DNA could not survive.
Inference #1 that investigators are falsifying DNA evidence.

Originally posted by Lillydale
So they identified people that were not on the plane as well as managed to get the DNA to match people they had no reference DNA or id for.

Inference #2 that investigators are falsifying DNA evidence.

Originally posted by Lillydale
explain to me how the same plane that made it through all those walls, and THEN, vaporized managed to spit out the DNA. ... The DNA only proves that the letter agency that dropped of this DNA had some place to go get it. If that plane did not crash into the Pentagon, then they had a pretty ready source of DNA to pretend that it did - minus the terrorists.

Inference #2 that DNA could not survive.
Inference #3 & #4 that investigators are falsifying DNA evidence.

Originally posted by Lillydale
This nonsense about DNA is just that. I guess it make sense to think that the LAPD is planting DNA all over murder scenes but the government has not yet figured out how to kill people, take DNA samples, and then drop them at the lab? Was anyone at the lab there to collect the DNA. Who know the chain of custody?

Inference #5, 6 & 7 that investigators are falsifying DNA evidence.

Originally posted by Lillydale
No witnesses, no real DNA EVIDENCE, no identified plane parts, no anything at all but radar and FDR data. The only thing they are proof of is that you have been made to think you have proof.

Inference #3 that DNA could not survive.
Inference #8 that investigators are falsifying DNA evidence.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Show me any DNA that was collected on the scene. What was it from? How was it collected?

Inference #9, 10 & 11 that investigators are falsifying DNA evidence.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Yes we all know the DNA survived while the plane shredded and melted around it then created a fire so intense as to blow a hole in a wall.

Inference #4 that DNA could not survive.

Originally posted by hooper
You snidely infer that DNA can not survive a plane crash.
...

I suppose your next tack will be to throw doubt on the veracity of DNA identification or accuse the technicians making the ID's as being "in on it". Good Luck.

Originally posted by Lillydale
I never said or inferred any such thing.

It's not nice to fib.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by thomk]

Originally posted by thomk
They got one set of DNA from the remains of the bodies of the poor souls who were on those planes.

As far as you know from what you were told.

They got matching DNA from hair brushes, personal effects of those same people, if available. If not, they got DNA from close relatives.

As far as you know from what you were told.

I read that they got DNA comparisons for one of the hijackers from his luggage that did not make the plane.

Oh, my bad. Case closed then.

Let me try this again, even though it is in the statement itself - as far as you know from something you read.

They requested DNA samples from relatives of all the hijackers in the Middle East. I read that, not surprisingly, those relatives refused.

Ahhhhh and we just haaaaaaaaave to stop here. Prove this is at all the case. Please elaborate as much as possible too. I keep getting so many interesting conflicting reports from OSers on how they matched terrorist DNA that it is hard to keep up. I want sources, details, or people to stop just saying things that are not true. If you can add some honesty to this, I would be happy to address the rest.