When did they ID AA77's parts?

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by Lillydale

 

Sorry, but your little response is based on the conveniently unspoken or unwritten premise that EVERYBODY, but you, is lying.

That is a bit of a stretch. Relatively few people would actually have to tell any lies in order to pull off a coverup like this.

Everyone in the chain of custody, everyone at the airport, everyone at the airline, everyone at the lab, everyone at the crash site, everyone in the FBI, etc., etc., etc..

What a fantastic imagination you have. Please explain to me how this chain of custody leads to a group of lies? Why would the lab have to lie if the FBI dropped off the DNA they were supposed to find? How does the person that dropped it off know where it came from before the person giving it to him? The only person that would have to lie would be the original 'recovery' team and that is it.

Why would anyone at the airport have to lie? I never said he did not get on the plane. I am not sure you actually read my post. If you did, you did not understand it, obviously.

This is a bad attempt to discredit what I said by attaching false negatives to it by exaggerating and making up things that have nothing to do with what I said. This is the act of someone who does not understand what they are reading or want to purposely mislead. Which would that be?

This line of "reasoning" (and I use the word very lightly) is pretty much the defintion of paranoia. Everything you believe is erratically sewn together with threads of assumed guilt. You demand that others prove your negatives (the FBI must prove they are NOT lying) in order to maintain this viewpoint.

Quote me once asking anyone to prove a negative. In fact, if you even follow any of my posts you will know I am kind of a jerk about that whole prove a negative thing because OSers constantly demand that I prove AA77 DID NOT CRASH at the Pentagon. So um....yeah.

This was not even a well thought out attempt to shush me. Hooper, please step aside and leave it to swampfox and even the "pilot" and I use that term loosely - Weedwhacker. At least I would have had a genuine run for my money. This just makes me sleepy.

Just to be clear now...The only liar had to be the recovery team. Everyone after that has no reason to know or doubt where it comes from. I have no idea why you would think they would. I really have to wonder why you might think that I might have such shoddy logic as I never posted such a thing.

You are trying to paint me as paranoid but you have to completely make up this crap about the airline and airport lying. Nothing I said gave any indication that I thought there was any lying going on there. If you have to make things up to try to make me look bad instead of even attempting to make your precious OS look good, it speaks volumes about what you have to offer in support of the OS and denying ignorance in general.

Try again and if you still have to lie and attack me, be more entertaining.

reply to post by Lillydale

The only liar had to be the recovery team

Excuse me but you are kind of mixing up your terms here. "Liar" is singular and "team" is plural. Which means everyone involved in the recovery would have to be liars. Which means they all were willing to go along with the mass murder of their fellow citizens.

Oh - and how about the airlines? There had to be more than a few people to go along with your little magic trick.

You continue to dig this hole deeper and deeper and then insist you see light at the end of the tunnel. Now that entertaining.

Originally posted by hooper
Excuse me but you are kind of mixing up your terms here. "Liar" is singular and "team" is plural.

2 or more teamS would be plural. 1 TEAM is singular. Do you want to debate English or are you going to prove AA77 hit the Pentagon? You are getting weaker with the fights you pick.

Out of my entire post, the only thing you saw that you could attack was my multiple/singular pronoun match? Are you for f****** real?!

Which means everyone involved in the recovery would have to be liars. Which means they all were willing to go along with the mass murder of their fellow citizens.

Yup, that does not change the way grammar works. The team lied. The people on the team were all liarS. I hope you are learning something about English today since you are trying so hard NOT to discuss the topic.

How many people were on that team? Are you trying to claim that the recovery team that actually located and recovered the DNA consisted of the entire chain of custody as well as the lab employees, airline employees, and airport employees? I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

I never said there was only one person who had to lie. I said it was a team. I am sorry that you are confused about what the word "team" means. That would indicate more than one liar. That does not indicate EVERYONE BUT ME IS A LIAR. It is a relatively small group of folks.

How many people actually recovered the DNA?

Oh - and how about the airlines? There had to be more than a few people to go along with your little magic trick.

Why? You can say it, but what is your argument, case, point here? What about the airlines???????????????????????????????????

You continue to dig this hole deeper and deeper and then insist you see light at the end of the tunnel. Now that entertaining.

I can do little more than laugh now. You made no attempt to engage in a real debate about the facts in this thread, the topic, or my response to you. You wasted an entire case insisting something without explaining why and incorrectly correcting my grammar. Go start a grammar thread and I will be ALL OVER IT.

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT AA77. Each post you make has less to do with the topic and you simply skirted every point in my post. You have nothing to offer on this and I am still not entertained, just irritated now.

reply to post by Lillydale


So please show me the "factual" basis for determining that all persons involved in the recovery of human remains were liars and co-conspirators.

The we can discuss the "factual" basis for determining that the human remains were all planted. Oh, and while you looking this all up, please make sure you can verifiy that only members of your "recovery team" handled the remains.

Are you suggesting that all human remains at all the sites were all funneled into one control unit and then that unit switched out the material that was actually recovered at the site with the remains that were dervied from the executed passengers before being sent to the labs for analysis?

Or maybe the recovery team was all on the up and up, but the lab boys just faked the results.

Any way you go the circle gets bigger and bigger, and your little fantasy starts to melt away.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by Lillydale

 

So please show me the "factual" basis for determining that all persons involved in the recovery of human remains were liars and co-conspirators.

I am not going to play your game. You already wasted my time with two empty nonsense posts. I posed some questions to you in both of my replies. You have ignored them. Now you want me to answer to you?

Go back up, address what I already asked you and then it is your turn to ask questions. If you do not want to play by my rules, then you have nothing to say and no answers and are admitting I cornered you and that is why you are trying to sneak out from under it and change the course of discourse.

If your next post is to say nothing but the fact that I just wrong a run-on sentence, I got it for ya right here.

reply to post by Lillydale

How many people actually recovered the DNA?

Well, first off, nobody recovers DNA. They recover what they believe to be human remains. Then the remains are examined and DNA is retrieved. As to how many - you tell me. I've seen photos of the sites where there were dozens if not close to hundreds of people involved in the recovery process. And this would have to apply to the WTC, Shanksville and the Pentagon. Were they all in on it? I would suppose the simple answer would be no - of course not. If there were hundreds involved and they were all part of the "inside job" then 9 years out somebody would have said something. So more than likely the persons doing the recovery and collection were not involved. So we go to the next link in the chain. Moving the remains from the field to the lab. There would be thousands of individual elements, all would need to be intercepted and replaced with elements from the remains of the actual passengers, who we have to now assume were relocated and dispatched and their bodies used to produce the phony remains. For the time being we'll ignore the dozens of co-conspirators that would be required for that task and concentrate on the old switcheroo. Now, human remains of the actual passengers show up at the lab in Maryland. They are analyzed and matched with DNA taken from the near blood relatives of the deceased and/or from other sources (articles of clothing or personal grooming from the homes of the deceased). Unless, of course, all technicians at the lab are also co-conspiratros, which, from a logistics standpoint would make much simpler. Then all they would have to do is throw some misc. tissue samples together than phony up the reports. But this is starting to enlarge the circle again of co-conspirators which is a realy chink in the armor of the conspiracy.

So lets assume the remains provided to the lab were genuiney derived from the passengers. Where are our weak points here? Well, one I can think of is what happens if one of the analysis doesn't like the way the remains look? Someone with experience in airplane catastrophes and thinks the remains are not consistent with that experience? I guess in the conspiracy world that is a pretty easy obstacle to overcome - simply knock the lab guy off and destroy and reports. Another chink in the armor.






Oh - and how about the airlines? There had to be more than a few people to go along with your little magic trick.



Why? You can say it, but what is your argument, case, point here? What about the airlines???????????????????????????????????

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by Lillydale

 

How many people actually recovered the DNA?

Well, first off, nobody recovers DNA. They recover what they believe to be human remains. Then the remains are examined and DNA is retrieved. As to how many - you tell me. I've seen photos of the sites where there were dozens if not close to hundreds of people involved in the recovery process. And this would have to apply to the blah blah blah conjecture speculation guesses i dont know blah blah

You do not know so do not try to swing it around as an argument. I believe it was a rather small group that actually recovered remains. Do not play the WTC Shanksville game in this thread. They do not apply and you did not even use them in any manner relative to the thread. All you managed to do was give a basis for your imaginary inflated numbers. Shhhhh.

So we go to the next link in the chain. Moving the remains from the field to the lab. There would be thousands of individual elements, all would need to be intercepted and replaced with elements from the remains of the actual passengers, who we have to now assume were relocated and dispatched and their bodies used to produce the phony remains. For the time being we'll ignore the dozens of co-conspirators that would be required for that task and concentrate on the old switcheroo.

Why ignore it??????

If you are are going to claim it, BACK IT UP. You are the one saying it would take all kinds of people. I say it could be done with 3. Can you dispute that? I imagine if you could, you would not be saying 'let's ignore it.'

Now, human remains of the actual passengers show up at the lab in Maryland. They are analyzed and matched with DNA taken from the near blood relatives of the deceased and/or from other sources (articles of clothing or personal grooming from the homes of the deceased). Unless, of course, all technicians at the lab are also co-conspiratros, which, from a logistics standpoint would make much simpler.

No it would not make it simpler. Show us how adding more people to the conspiracy makes it easier than just tossing them what they are supposed to find? You are just saying things to try and inflate your baseless argument and it is sad at best. You are guessing and hoping and adding nothing factual to back it up.

I say 3 guys grabbed the remains, switched them out and from then on everyone else just did their job.

Then all they would have to do is throw some misc. tissue samples together than phony up the reports. But this is starting to enlarge the circle again of co-conspirators which is a realy chink in the armor of the conspiracy.

Yes, your fantasy is getting bigger and bigger. Cute story. If it was based on anything real, that would make it really cool.

So lets assume the remains provided to the lab were genuiney derived from the passengers. Where are our weak points here? Well, one I can think of is what happens if one of the analysis doesn't like the way the remains look? Someone with experience in airplane catastrophes and thinks the remains are not consistent with that experience? I guess in the conspiracy world that is a pretty easy obstacle to overcome - simply knock the lab guy off and destroy and reports. Another chink in the armor.

What if? What if? What if? What if someone was psychic and was having an affair with..... Dude, please. Be real. This is not about what you can imagine. It is about what we can find proof of. STOP.

Oh - and how about the airlines? There had to be more than a few people to go along with your little magic trick.



Why? You can say it, but what is your argument, case, point here? What about the airlines???????????????????????????????????

I am not sure why you quoted me here but I will not argue with myself.

You still refuse to address my questions. You pretended to by picking one and using it to start your fairy tale. If you want to play the guessing game and ask me to disprove it then it works both ways. 3 guys switched out the remains and what they dropped off looked just like it should have. Want me to disprove you? Disprove me?

It does not work that way. There is real evidence. There are facts here. If you want to tell stories, start a blog. I am sorry you do not have answers to the things I have asked. Obviously you brought nothing to the table this morning and I regret doing my hair for this now.

Please address the facts at hand and if you plan to tell fairy tales and then ask me questions then at least be a man and face the questions already posed to you. This is far too many posts of chasing you through fantasy land. It is a waste of my time and the time of everyone reading this thread hoping to learn or teach something. You obviously have the right to do it but I hope you remember when you look in the mirror that you spent the morning hiding from a little girl's questions because you were afraid of trying to answer them. Instead you just kept telling her stories because it was ones step away from lying but a leap from addressing the matter at hand. Bravo!

The chain of custody can be long and involve a lot of logistics. All it takes is someone to loose track for even a minute and the chain of command can be broken.

By the way several FBI agents on 9/11 were accused of taken personal objects from the crime scene as mementoes.

[edit on 14-1-2010 by REMISNE]

reply to post by Lillydale


I'm sorry if you don't like my narrative but I am trying to understand the logisitics of the deception. You think only about 3 people were allowed to collect remains at the Pentagon. If these were not the actual remains of the actual passengers, then what were they? Or were the remains switched out in the field - where? At the actual point of discovery? Or at a collection point?

You keep going on about "facts" but I haven't seen you actually posts any pertinent "facts". What are the facts that you have that you think are beyond dispute and revealing as to the conspiracy?

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by Lillydale

 

I'm sorry if you don't like my narrative but I am trying to understand the logisitics of the deception.

Awesome! Start a thread!

You think only about 3 people were allowed to collect remains at the Pentagon.

You think it was hundreds? Why is either more or less plausible? Have the facts handy yet?

If these were not the actual remains of the actual passengers, then what were they?

Well that is the issue isn't it. I do not really go for the swap out part so I apologize for bringing it up. It was an easy way through the discussion. My real belief is that they were nothing. They were stories. The real remains were dropped off at the lab but no human remains were actually found at the Pentagon. Just the stories that they were. There has yet to be any evidence of any remains from passengers. I believe I started a thread about it.

Again, I apologize for even saying it. That was totally my bad.

Or were the remains switched out in the field - where? At the actual point of discovery? Or at a collection point?

Sorry. I do not believe any actual remains were found.

You keep going on about "facts" but I haven't seen you actually posts any pertinent "facts". What are the facts that you have that you think are beyond dispute and revealing as to the conspiracy?

First of all, I just played your little game and you still have questions yet to answer. You offer me this excuse about trying to understand. NUH UH! I asked you questions several posts back. MAN UP! Deal with them before you try to corner me. I will no longer answer jacks*** until you deal with all the questions I have already posed.

This is a common trick among you guys. You ignore questions and continue to spew out falsehoods and stories and outright lies. When questioned on the validity of these stories, you move on and start pummeling the other guy with questions. I hate to call names so please stop behaving as a coward.

I am not sure what facts you are waiting for. I did not present any wild theories or tell any tall tales. Whenever you deal with my questions, perhaps I will be willing to offer facts up for you.

By the way several FBI agents on 9/11 were accused of taken personal objects from the crime scene as mementoes.

This destroyed any chance of chain of custody and made the crime scene investigation suspusious.

reply to post by REMISNE


Oh really? You of course can explain why an internet rumor makes the chain of custody suspicious???

reply to post by hooper

It doesn't seem much like an internet rumor to me:

www.fbi.gov...
www.cbsnews.com...
www.nytimes.com...
www.justice.gov...
www.justice.gov...

Why do you think it's just an internet rumor?

Originally posted by hooper
Oh really? You of course can explain why an internet rumor makes the chain of custody suspicious???

It is so fun and easy to post facts, you should try it sometime. I suggest you look at the FBI's own website.

www.fbi.gov...
Items were taken by workers as mementos of the tragedy and recovery effort, including by FBI employees. An investigation of the removals by FBI employees, undertaken by the Department of Justice Inspector General, has resulted in citations of misconduct and in policy recommendations governing crime scenes.

reply to post by REMISNE


And exactly how does any of this detract from the chain of custody? Oh, and thank you for reinforcing the idea that releasing any of the information that you feign such interest in is quite pointless. Even if all the plane part numbers, airline records, FBI reports, etc. were released you are now in a position to dismiss them with a little hand waiving and continue down the path of delusion.

Originally posted by hooper
And exactly how does any of this detract from the chain of custody?

Well its hard to explain to someone who knows nothing about crime scene investigations.

Since the items were removed it makes the chain of custody null and void.

Also the crime scene has now been contaminated.

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by hooper
And exactly how does any of this detract from the chain of custody?

Well its hard to explain to someone who knows nothing about crime scene investigations.

Since the items were removed it makes the chain of custody null and void.

Also the crime scene has now been contaminated.

Well, I guess its now case closed. You are obviously well pre-positioned now to dismiss all and any data or information that is released about the fate of Flight 77. It is all the product of what you have unilaterally declared a "contaminated" crime scene. And I guess you always were. So why feign such outrage about unreleased data that you had absolutely no intent of ever accepting?

Originally posted by hooper
So why feign such outrage about unreleased data?

Maybe becasue i know something about crime scenes and know what should be released.

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by hooper
So why feign such outrage about unreleased data?

Maybe becasue i know something about crime scenes and know what should be released.

To what end? You've already declared the data the fruit of a poison tree, so what good would it do? Remember? The FBI took "mementos" ergo all the chain of custody docs are therefore rendered moot.

In your experience - is crime scene information - photos, fingerprints, lab results, etc. generally released to the public during an ongoing investigation? If not, why would this situation be treated differently?

Originally posted by hooper
In your experience - is crime scene information - photos, fingerprints, lab results, etc. generally released to the public during an ongoing investigation?

Well I can look up and find information other crime scenes like Flight 800 so why can't we find anything on the 9/11 planes?

[edit on 18-1-2010 by REMISNE]