When did they ID AA77's parts?, page 1

reply to post by Lillydale

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And you know this how?

Who ever said that just made it up and here is the proof.

F.B.I. Counsel: No Attempt Made By F.B.I. To Formally Identify 9/11 Plane Wreckage

pilotsfor911truth.org...

The airplane parts were never Identify or labeled, or serial numbers, taken to be matched to belonging to said airplanes.
In my opinion, the lying FBI didn’t want those parts numbers because they do not belong to those planes. What is the best way to cover –up a crime, simply by hiding, or destroying everything? We already know that is not how a crash investigator does their job.

Great thread.

reply to post by GhostR1der

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Where is the evidence to prove it is not Flight 77? What is stopping someone from exposing the Flight 77 hoax? facts and evidence; lol.
The only proof offered the plane parts are not Flight 77 is talk and zero substance.


No one has or will prove the government is lying. No one will take their proof (vaporware so to speak), write a paper and get a Pulitzer Prize. Woodward and Bernstein did it for the Post with Watergate. Woodward and Bernstein exposed Watergate and forced the President to resign. Why can't someone do it for real instead of spreading wild speculation and fantasy? 8 years is enough time to earn a PhD on 911 but people claiming 77 is not identified are only repeating false information.

Flight 77 was identified on 911. No one in the world has proved different. That requires evidence and it is not there.

8 years and the evidence verify 77 as the plane (amazing no one has sued the media for being wrong; did they got something right?); RADAR data, FDR, DNA, and witnesses all verify 77 impacted the Pentagon. The big killer for engineers is the damage is exactly what a 757 would do at 483 KIAS. The Pentagon Performance Report supports 77’s impact.
Pentagon Performance Report
Pentagon Performance Report PDF file download

Why do people perpetrate this fraud that 77 is not the plane? Is capitalism the motivator for the conspiracy theory industry? Selling books, DVDs, and TV shows to the masses that are willing to accept hearsay, false information and wild fantasies keep the 911 conspiracy theories going. None of those behind the marketing of conspiracy products offer evidence; they will offer whatever they think the conspiracy market wants to hear no matter how anti-intellectual it is.

No one has refuted all the simultaneous RADAR sites tracking Flight 77 to the Pentagon? What is wrong, some technical problem with decoding the data. The data is available, why avoid the evidence by ignoring it. The RADAR data is evidence, it shows Flight 77 ends at the Pentagon. With the FDR you can see the height above the ground go from 273 feet to 233, 183, 89, 57, and the final RADALT reading from the FDR of 4 feet. These FDR entries match the eyewitnesses.

The detail, the small details kill the fantasy (the big fireball). The jet fuel fireball is exactly what a 757 with the fuel of Flight 77 would look like in a 483 KIAS impact. No one can refute this fact with evidence or experience.


Part of one of Flight’s 77 engine, after a 483 KIAS impact with the Pentagon and being found in the ruble. Has anyone told the loved ones of the dead, you know the dead passengers on Flight 77 found in the Pentagon identified by serial number (aka DNA) that it was all fake and they can rejoice their loved ones are not dead, it was all faked they are in Kokomo with the Beach Boys drinking beers in witness protection.

What is the single integrated operation plan to go with no Flight 77? Does anyone have a coherent story backed with evidence? No, because all the evidence shows 77 crashed into the Pentagon.

Originally posted by iSunTzu
reply to post by GhostR1der

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Where is the evidence to prove it is not Flight 77? What is stopping someone from exposing the Flight 77 hoax? facts and evidence; lol.
The only proof offered the plane parts are not Flight 77 is talk and zero substance.

Hey Jthomas. Asking for negative proof did not get anywhere for you before, it will not work now. If you are going to talk about proof. Prove AA77 hit the Pentagon. Saying it was on the news is hardly proof. Lots of things are on the news that turn out to be wrong. Are you suing them all?

reply to post by 767doctor

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Following a certain number of flying hours or, in the case of landing gears, a certain number of takeoff-and-landing cycles, these critical parts are required to be changed, overhauled or inspected by specialist mechanics. When these parts are installed, their serial numbers are married to the aircraft registration numbers in the aircraft records and the plans and scheduling section will notify maintenance specialists when the parts must be replaced. If the parts are not replaced within specified time or cycle limits, the airplane will normally be grounded until the maintenance action is completed. Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators , pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible

-George Nelson
Colonel, USAF (ret.)

In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.

reply to post by iSunTzu

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I disagree with your post and here is why.

Arlington Topography, Obstacles Make American 77 Final Leg Impossible

By Rob Balsamo, Pilots For 9/11 Truth
Update - 12/12/08
It appears some are still confused regarding the corrections of the below article and still do not understand that the video presented which contain the proper formula's as determined by Aeronautical Engineers is a "correction" to our article below. This update is to inform those who are still confused that the presentation of "9/11: Attack On The Pentagon" and the "G Forces" clip below offered for free, is the correction to our admitted math errors from our original article. For most this is not in question. For those who make excuse for the govt story, apparently they are still confused and still quote the 11.2 G's of the original article wondering when we are going to "correct" our mistakes, yet anyone who actually views the video presentation will readily realize such errors have been corrected.
Those who do make excuse for the govt story (and many who admittedly pay too much for their training, read: "milking the student") feel we should delete our errors in the original article below. We disagree. We show our errors and work through them. To date, this is the only article on this site which we have made mistakes and have since corrected the errors as shown in the video presentation directly below this update. Thank you for your understanding and we apologize for any confusion.
Update - 09/15/08

pilotsfor911truth.org...

Can The Govt Get Their Story Straight? - Location Of Flight Data Recorder

pilotsfor911truth.org...

Impossible to Prove a Falsehood True
by George Nelson
Colonel, USAF (ret.)
The precautionary principle is based on the fact that its impossible to prove a false claim to be true. Failure to prove a false premise true does not automatically make it false but caution is called for, especially in the case of a world-changing event like the alleged terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 . After five long years, our government has provided the public with no physical evidence to support its claim that the attacks were the work of Muslim terrorists, or even that the identity of the aircraft that struck their targets on September 11 was the same as those specified in the 9/11 Commission's report. As explained below, it would be a simple matter to confirm the identity of each of the four aircraft, and until such physical proof of identity is forthcoming, no conclusions can be scientifically drawn to support the official story as being accurate. This is a precaution against rushing to judgment. At this point, it could just as easily be assumed that the 911 hijackings were part of a black operation carried out with full cooperation of elements within our own government.
In July, 1965 I had just been commissioned a Second Lieutenant in the U. S. Air Force after taking a solemn oath that I would protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same. I took that oath very seriously, and it was my constant companion throughout a thirty-year military career in the field of aircraft maintenance.
As an additional duty, aircraft maintenance officers are occasionally tasked as members of aircraft accident investigation boards and my personal experience was no exception. In 1989 I graduated from the Aircraft Mishap Investigation Course at the Institute of Safety and Systems Management at the University of Southern California . In addition to my direct participation as an aircraft accident investigator, I reviewed countless aircraft accident investigation reports for thoroughness and comprehensive conclusions for the Inspector General, HQ Pacific Air Forces during the height of the Vietnam conflict.
In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even learned of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft --- and in most cases, even determining the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.
Following a certain number of flying hours or, in the case of landing gears, a certain number of takeoff-and-landing cycles, these critical parts are required to be replaced, overhauled or inspected by specialist mechanics. The plans and scheduling section will notify maintenance specialists with a work order when the parts must be replaced. When the parts are installed, the completed work order will have serial numbers of the parts married to the aircraft registration number and it will be returned to the records section for updating in the aircraft records. If the parts are not replaced within specified time or cycle limits the airplane will normally be grounded until the maintenance action is completed. Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators, pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible.
Considering the catastrophic incidents of September 11 2001 , certain troubling but irrefutable conclusions must be drawn from the known facts, and I get no personal pleasure or satisfaction from reporting my assessment of these facts.
United Airlines Flight 93
This flight was reported by the federal government to be a Boeing 757 aircraft, registration number N591UA, carrying 45 persons, including four Arab hijackers who had taken control of the aircraft, crashing the plane in a Pennsylvania farm field.
Aerial photos of the alleged crash site were made available to the general public. They show a shallow, smoking hole in the ground, but private investigators were not allowed to come anywhere near the alleged crash site. If an aircraft crash caused the hole in the ground, there would have literally hundreds of serially controlled time-change parts within the hole that would have proven beyond any shadow of doubt the precise tail-number or identity of the aircraft. However, the government has not produced any physical evidence that would prove beyond doubt, the specific identity of the aircraft that allegedly crashed at that site. On the contrary, it was reported that the aircraft, registry number N591UA, was still in operation for several weeks after September 11, 2001 .
American Airlines Flight 11
This flight was reported by the government to be a Boeing 767-200, registration number N334AA, carrying 92 people, including foreign nationals who had hijacked the plane. This plane was reported to have crashed into the north tower of the WTC complex of buildings.
Again, the government would have no trouble proving its case if only a few of the hundreds of serially controlled parts had been collected to positively identify the aircraft. A Boeing 767 landing gear or just one engine would have been easy to find and identify.
United Airlines Flight 175
This flight was reported to be a Boeing 767-200, registration number N612UA, carrying 65 people, including the crew and five hijackers. It reportedly flew into the south tower of the WTC.
Once more, the government has yet to produce even one serially controlled part from the crash site that would have dispelled any questions as to the identity of the specific airplane.
American Airlines Flight 77
This was reported to be a Boeing 757, registration number N644AA, carrying 64 people, including the flight crew and five hijackers. This aircraft, with a 125-foot wingspan, was reported to have crashed into the Pentagon, leaving an entry hole no more than 16 feet wide.
Following a cool-down of the resulting fire, this crash site would have been very easy to collect enough time-change equipment within 15 minutes to positively identify the aircraft registry. There was apparently some aerospace type of equipment found at the site but no attempt was made to produce serial numbers or to identify the specific parts found. Some of the equipment removed from the building was actually hidden from public view.
Conclusion
The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001 , resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. The hard evidence would have included hundreds of critical time-change aircraft items, plus security videotapes that were confiscated by the FBI immediately following each tragic episode.
With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased, rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Shanksville, Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. Regarding the planes that allegedly flew into the two WTC towers, it appears that heavy aircraft were involved in each case, but no evidence has been produced that would support the government's version of what actually caused the total destruction of the buildings, let alone proving the identity of the aircraft. That is the central problem with the government's 911 story.
As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to have been involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history.
Footnote: It has now been more than five years since the tragic events of 9/11/01 , and still the general public has seen no physical evidence that should have been collected at each of the four crash sites, (a routine requirement during mandatory investigations of each and every major aircraft crash.) The National Transportation Safety Board has announced on its website that responsibility for the investigations and reports have been assigned to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but the FBI has refused to publicly release any copies of their mandatory investigations. The FBI response to a request for copies of their reports under the Freedom of Information Act was a refusal. The agency claimed that their investigation reports were "in a file", and that the FBI was exempt from FOIA release, "due to the sensibilities of surviving families of the crash victims".

pilotsfor911truth.org...

Now back to topic:

When you parse your way through all the BS about the FDR, the answer is NO. The parts were never identified as belonging to AA77 but I am sure this is off topic.

And you know this how?

iSunTzu, can you explain why you believe flight 77 was identified and please show what evidences was given to the American people.

What has convinced you so hard that our government does not tell lies? Please try to answer this question, because this is very important, I would like to know.

Originally posted by Lillydale
reply to post by 767doctor

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Following a certain number of flying hours or, in the case of landing gears, a certain number of takeoff-and-landing cycles, these critical parts are required to be changed, overhauled or inspected by specialist mechanics. When these parts are installed, their serial numbers are married to the aircraft registration numbers in the aircraft records and the plans and scheduling section will notify maintenance specialists when the parts must be replaced. If the parts are not replaced within specified time or cycle limits, the airplane will normally be grounded until the maintenance action is completed. Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators , pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible

-George Nelson
Colonel, USAF (ret.)

I'm an airline mechanic, I already know all that. I said as much in my original post. Most people in the industry know it too. Moving on.....

In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.

Again, with the exception of the bolded part, I'm well aware of this and agree completely. As to the bolded section, thats what my original post is talking about: the claim that aircraft parts are used to ID a crashed aircraft. Except in very unusual circumstances, that is flat-out wrong. Nelson's description of how rogue parts may need to be identified if they had a role in the crash is entirely accurate. However, AA77 was not an aviation accident.

So I'll ask again. Where can I get such parts ID reports for other crashes? I've linked the NTSBs accident database and can find no such thing. I'm going to need evidence that part number/serial number matching is used to "positively ID" crashed aircraft, before I can accept such a claim.

Originally posted by 767doctor
Here's a little homework assignment for Lily, or anyone who trusts PFT as aviation authorities:

Find me one report stating that a crashed aircraft was ID'ed using part numbers and serial numbers. I don't need to see the parts or know the serial numbers, and I don't need a chain of custody report(all the things that you truthers constantly demand).

This shouldn't be too difficult to nail down.

reply to post by 767doctor

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You would not be demanding I produce this list unless you were bluffing or just knew it was something I can not access. That really does not matter at this point. What you are asking me to do is decide who's word is worth more about how AA77 should have been handled - some person on the internet who claims to work on airplanes orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr a retired Air force Colonel?

Sorry to break your heart sweet but we already have us a pilot on here that cannot actually express any more knowledge than an avid MSFSX user. We have someone in Iraq fighting for our freedom who also finds time to sleep for at least some time and then post here for 16 hours a day.

"I am a this" and "I am a that" really mean very little to me when every document I get my hands on has a confirmed member of the AF or airline industry, or alphabet agency name on it. You might as well tell me you saw the plane yourself and the dead bodies still strapped into seats.

Originally posted by Lillydale
reply to post by 767doctor

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You would not be demanding I produce this list unless you were bluffing or just knew it was something I can not access. That really does not matter at this point. What you are asking me to do is decide who's word is worth more about how AA77 should have been handled - some person on the internet who claims to work on airplanes orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr a retired Air force Colonel?

Thats the point, Lily. You shouldn't need to accept anyones word over another's. You can look for the evidence yourself and then you can decide who is right.

If parts are matched to crashed aircraft's records as a form of identification, this is something that can be checked with other crashes. If we cannot readily find anything of the sort for these other crashes, then the idea of crying foul in the case of AA77 is not warranted.

Sorry to break your heart sweet but we already have us a pilot on here that cannot actually express any more knowledge than an avid MSFSX user. We have someone in Iraq fighting for our freedom who also finds time to sleep for at least some time and then post here for 16 hours a day.

I can appreciate your skepticism and unwillingness to listen to anonymous people on the internet, or believe them in regard to their alleged area of expertise. But it really doesn't matter who the argument comes from; arguing from authority is a logical fallacy. We should be looking for evidence, not someone's "word" as an authority.



[edit on 21-12-2009 by 767doctor]

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by 767doctor
Thats the point, Lily. You shouldn't need to accept anyones word over anothers. You can look for the evidence and then you can decide who is right.

You are absolutely right. So far, I have seen no proof whatsoever that AA77 crashed into the Pentagon. NONE. If you have some, I would love to see it. I do not mean speculative crap or "go google it" answers. It has been 8 years. Just lay the proof out. I have done my looking and it sure looks to me like something very different happened there that day.

I don't like the word proof; it's too absolute. Do you accept that there is, at the very least, some evidence that AA77 may have hit the Pentagon?

Do you accept that there is some evidence of aircraft parts? RADES radar data from multiple sources? FDR data which depicts the final 40 hours of AA77's flight history? DNA evidence of passengers and crew who boarded AA77? 100+ eyewitness accounts of the crash?

If you accept that there is some evidence, we can go on. If not, there is no point in continuing further.


Back to the parts ID'ing for a moment. Do you agree that if such "positive ID" is standard NTSB practice, that there will be evidence available on the internet to determine as much?





[edit on 21-12-2009 by 767doctor]

reply to post by Lillydale

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The FDR was indentified as belonging to Flight AA77. That is all that is needed for the sake of indentification. There were no other planes involved in the crash or at the crash site which would require specific ID. Mechanical failure was not suspected in the crash. The part condition and ID was wholly irrelevant in the real world. Only in the CT world does it matter.

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