Illegal for Senators to vote Yes on Obamacare

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
God forbid that our kids can now expect to be cared for in the event that they get hurt. Damn man I really liked the good old days when a kid could crash and get left hanging if they were not insured. What has the world come to? My father in law just found out he has cancer, thank god they didn’t pass they health care stuff yet!

If nothing else the health care stuff is a guarantee that if you or any of your family is hurt then they will be cared for. Yeah it’s a socialist program, but what would America really be without the social services. I imagine you would see large portions of the populous living in the dirt for lack of a better word. Maybe tent cities all over the place. Why exactly would you deny us Medical Care?

[edit on 21-12-2009 by Donkey_Dean]

Man, I really liked the good old days when people took PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for themselves and their families. I really enjoyed the good old days when the government stayed out of my business and didn't tell me what to buy or how much of it. I really enjoyed the good old days when people were actually educated and understood that having the government intrude in people's personal lives a BAD thing.

Who is denying YOU medical care? You are currently free to see any doctor you choose - for now anyway.

Sure you can see what ever doctor you want for now but you have to pay for it. who wants to pay for medical bills when there is an xbox or ipod that you can buy instead.

[edit on 21-12-2009 by Raven Hemp]

reply to post by kozmo


That’s an idiotic statement. They are millions who are disabled or unable to maintain what you consider PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. We care for those less fortunate than ourselves and that’s what has made America great. The health bill is long overdue!

Its gonna pass! OH YES ITS GONNA PASS!

Were you insured when you were 18-19 and bumping up and down the road like you were immortal? Don’t confuse yourself friend, you can get hurt anytime anyplace. There is one thing in life that is certain. You will require life sustaining treatment sometime in the future, you will need coverage. Just because a person does not have enough bread to pay for coverage for himself and family should not doom his family should they need medical care.

Do you have any idea how many successful retired persons are forced to sell all they have and become indigent upon the state because of medical issues. If you pretend for a moment that your current provider wouldn’t drop you like a rock the minute you got really sick you are sadly mistaken.


[edit on 21-12-2009 by Donkey_Dean]

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


The word "Direct" is the key which completely guts this argument. The BS being shuffled around Capitol Hill right now talks only about having the government tinker with Health Insurance. Don't let the "Health Care" label fool you.

Under the current legislation, the Government would have their fingers in one particular pie (the so-called "Public Option") in where they would be able to say what is and is not "covered" (by which they mean paid for by the insurance). There is nothing going around Capitol Hill saying that the government can directly tell a Doctor not to perform a procedure or a patient not to get it. They can only say whether or not they will pay for it. That is, by definition, indirect.

Add to that the fact that any "Government Run" healthcare will, in fact, end up contracted to a private insurance company and you add still another layer of deflection between the government and the actual care being provided.

I am sick to death of people who have the time and relative intelligence to look up legal precedence like this, but are too blinded by propaganda to understand what they are actually trying to fight against.

reply to post by Donkey_Dean


you do realize they had health care issues when the constitution was written and if it was that important they would have put something in then.

Originally posted by kozmo

Originally posted by OldDragger
Utter nonsense.
Congress is regulating commerce. not medicine.
read your Constitution Obama haters, it's specifacly mentioned as a power of Congress.
The issue with healthcare reform is monetary. That's why the corrupt Repubs and Insurance companies care about it. Oh, and let's throw in some Democrats too! And Lieberman is bought and paid for by insurance.
I'd like to see this imbecile argue this in court. He'll do just as well as Orly
IT"S ALL ABOUT MONEY! IT"S ALWAYS ABOUT MONEY!

Another uneducated and uninformed American!

Obviously you haven't bothered to read the Constitution! Congress has the right to regulate INTER-STATE COMMERCE - NOT commerce!

That is commerce BETWEEN and AMONG the states, not WITHIN the states.

Folks, Old Dagger is another perfect example of the product of public indoctrin... er, education!

U. S. vs Darby (1941), in unanimously overruling Hammer vs Dagenhart, demonstrated how much the Court had changed its approach to Commerce Clause in a generation. Using a "substantial effects" test, the Court upheld the Fair Labor Standards Act--an important piece of legislation that effectively set national minimum wage and maximum hour laws by prohibiting the interstate shipment of goods manufactured in violation of the federal standards.

Once having established that congressional exercises of power were valid if shown to regulate activities "substantially affecting" interstate commerce, the Court proceeded to open up more opportunities for exercise of the commerce power by holding that an activity only trivially affecting interstate commerce might nonetheless by regulated if all of the regulated activities of various individuals--taken cumulatively--had substantial interstate effects. In Wickard vs Filburn (1942), for example, the Court upheld a $117 penalty imposed on a Ohio farmer for growing wheat on 12 more acres than he was permitted to under the Agricultural Adjustment Act. The Court relied on Wickard in the 2005 case of Gonzales v Raich, upholding the power of Congress to authorized seizure of doctor-prescribed marijuana allowed under the laws of California and other states. The Court in Gonzales noted that local use of medical marijuana had a cumulative effect on the black market for marijuana.

www.law.umkc.edu...

As you can see above there is Supreme Court precedent for upholding congressional claims of authority over local commerce. The key being that the local commerce would have an effect on matters outside of the state. Since health insurance industries are not local entities, policies made in one territory would have an affect in all others.

The court has already decided this. Now, if the court wants to overturn previous rulings on Congress' authority over interstate matters, that would be their right.

But so far this hasn't happened. Why do you think that is?

[edit on 12/21/2009 by clay2 baraka]

http://

The Constitutionality of Health insurance Reform, Part II : Congressional Power

Gee despite some blowhards there are other opinions on this subject!
Not naming names! Wonder who!

[edit on 21-12-2009 by OldDragger]

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
reply to post by kozmo

 

That’s an idiotic statement. They are millions who are disabled or unable to maintain what you consider PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. We care for those less fortunate than ourselves and that’s what has made America great. The health bill is long overdue!

Its gonna pass! OH YES ITS GONNA PASS!

Oh, I hope it does pass - so that the masses, the majority of which OPPOSE it - will be highly motivated to put an end to the tyranny that is our government.

Now as far as the disabled... There was a time when a man's FAMILY and friends lent a hand to help them out. Yes, believe it or not, there was a time when the FAMILY was the social safety net. But since the liberals have taken the time to destroy the family and destroy the Church, all that is left is big-daddy government. Caring for people who are too lazy to care for themselves is what has made America the travesty it is! Sadly, that is the majority of people caught in the "Safety net."

Originally posted by 4nsicphd

Originally posted by RelentlessDespot
Forcing Americans to buy health insurance is quite far from constitutional.

Second line

And third...

Dhange the word "health" to "automobile".
It's all moot anyway bigots. The vote, which if anyone actually read the news rather than being Foxed, was not on the plan itself but was on cloture, is over. You lost again, Rethuglicans.

The real difference is automobile insurance is required by states because the use of an automobile could be hazardous to the health, life, and or property of yourself or others.

Last time I checked, auto insurance was not a Federal Law,

Since when is not having health insurance a danger to the health, life, or property of anyone except possibly the uninsured? Health insurance, or lack thereof is not a deadly weapon.

reply to post by clay2 baraka


Sorry, but the "Butterfly effect" hardly authorizes Congress to usurp or over-step its authority. By extension, my breathing affects someone's business in California... are you advocating for unfettered Congressional control over everything???

reply to post by Libertygal


I believe the standard for law is" when the state has a complelling interest", has zip to do with danger.
God forbid the Federal government should actually do something to benefit the citizens!

reply to post by kozmo


You need to get over yourself a little bit. Why exactly would you not support medical reform? After all our cureent system is so severly broken, it is so very unfair and crude.

Many retired persons can expect to lose all they have because of health issues. They current system works like this.

1. You work until retirement.
2. You have some good years.
3. You get sick and the medical industry wants 100’s of thousands of dollars. Or they pile on medications that consume more than your monthly income. With no way to work you are forced to sell off your belonging.


Ask any older person what the biggest problem in America is and most will answer Health Care. Just because your healthy now is no reason to run this legislation into the ground.



[edit on 21-12-2009 by Donkey_Dean]

reply to post by Donkey_Dean


Hmmm... Why yes, I was insured! I was insured when I was 22, 29, 33, 37 etc... I have been insured my whole life! Why? Because it was MY RESPONSIBILITY!!! I made certain that I paid my premiums before buying a plasma TV, an iPod, a Wii, a steak dinner or any number of things that most welfare recipients spend their money on each month! When my "indigent" grandparents fell ill, they moved in with family members who cared for them and/or we pulled our money together to get them the treatment they required. During times when treatment was simply unaffordable, we worked within our means to provide for them the best we could.

Believe it or not, we are ALL going to die some day. It is NOT my responsibility to pay for your healthcare or anyone else's unless I so choose! Step out of your fantasy land nirvana and come join the rest of us in the real world!

reply to post by Donkey_Dean


In the early 18th century, before he served on a committee of five who drafted the Declaration of Independence in 1776, Ben Franklin already had the solution to health care reform in America when he proclaimed, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”

www.uspharmacist.com...

reply to post by kozmo


Yes it is your responsibility to pay your taxes. I personally have no problem with my taxes caring for the less fortunate, but that’s just me. I also think the new plan will require everyone to have coverage or face fines. Which is supposed to bring down medical costs and premiums. So if you have carried coverage since you were a kid then you should only expect a reduction in your premiums. You should be happy friend, happy in knowing that no one will be left out in the cold anymore when it comes to medical care.

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
reply to post by kozmo

 

You need to get over yourself a little bit. Why exactly would you not support medical reform? After all our cureent system is so severly broken, it is so very unfair and crude.

Most retired persons can expect to lose all they have because of health issues. They current system works like this.

1. You work until retirement.
2. You have some good years.
3. You get sick and the medical industry wants 100’s of thousands of dollars. Or they pile on medications that consume more than your monthly income. With no way to work you are forced to sell off your belonging.

Hey, let's get somethings straight - I AM ALL FOR medical reform. However, there is nothing in this bill that "reforms" anything. You want to "REFORM" healthcare? Try eliminating intra-state monopolies and allow insurance companies to sell over state lines. Enact Tort Reform. Level the playing field among insurance companies and require better underwriting practices. Require state audited malpractice panels and penalties for physicians who are found to provide substandard care. There are dozens and dozens of things that could be done to "Reform" healthcare. This bill, in its current form, does NONE of them - with the exception of not allowing an insurance to drop you when you become ill. That one single exception is the ONLY thing that makes sense. The rest of this is simply the government taking control of your healthcare.

Hey, I get it - you're liberal. By the time you come to understand what has happened it will be WAY too late to fix it! You'd be wise not to confuse your idealism with realism!

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
reply to post by kozmo

 

Yes it is your responsibility to pay your taxes. I personally have no problem with my taxes caring for the less fortunate, but that’s just me. I also think the new plan will require everyone to have coverage or face fines. Which is supposed to bring down medical costs and premiums. So if you have carried coverage since you were a kid then you should only expect a reduction in your premiums. You should be happy friend, happy in knowing that no one will be left out in the cold anymore when it comes to medical care.

How is adding millions of people to the insurance rolls who cannot pay for it going to reduce my premiums??? Methinks you buy into the propaganda a little too easily. I'm a business man and in over 20 years I have never once witnessed how giving away millions of anything reduced costs. Typically, it just made those who pay, pay more to cover those who don't!

Originally posted by Raven Hemp
reply to post by Donkey_Dean

 

In the early 18th century, before he served on a committee of five who drafted the Declaration of Independence in 1776, Ben Franklin already had the solution to health care reform in America when he proclaimed, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”

www.uspharmacist.com...

I’m sorry but I have to say it. That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Prevention is the cure what ails us huh? Do you have the slightest clue as to how broken our health care system really is? It is very close to an all out theft ring that will without doubt get hold of you and your family. Continue with the current system and you will lose all you have to these crooks, unless you’re lucky enough to pass early.

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean

Originally posted by Raven Hemp
reply to post by Donkey_Dean

 

In the early 18th century, before he served on a committee of five who drafted the Declaration of Independence in 1776, Ben Franklin already had the solution to health care reform in America when he proclaimed, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”

www.uspharmacist.com...

I’m sorry but I have to say it. That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Prevention is the cure what ails us huh? Do you have the slightest clue as to how broken our health care system really is? It is very close to an all out theft ring that will without doubt get hold of you and your family. Continue with the current system and you will lose all you have to these crooks, unless you’re lucky enough to pass early.

Stop with the BS baiting, eh!? When my grandfather was diagnosed with terminal cancer he REFUSED all of the big money treatments. WHY? It was a financial burden that didn't make sense anyway. He was going to die and he knew it! He faced his mortality like a man and did the right thing. Rather than bankrupt himself and be a financial burden on his family, he travelled the world and celebrated his life! You are approaching this like healthcare is a right - it's NOT!