The majority of Americans came to America in the last century and didn't kill Indians or enslave bl

reply to post by Doc Velocity


You are correct slavery was not invented by Americans, it was however instituted as a social and cultural institution in America, and America as in the British North American colonies, by a small group of elites. The blame for slavery can be placed squarely on humanity as a whole, and more precisely in this instance can be spread around to include African slavecatchers and Arab traders along with the White Devil.

I've heard all the arguments about the Civil War, and it doesn't matter what war you are referring to anywhere in history, there are primary reasons and secondary reasons for it, and legions of different powerful people on both sides that all have their own agendas. Certainly economics played a part but,

The Civil War was all about slavery. That was the primary reason. There would have been no strife at all between the North and the South were it not for the Northern intolerance of slavery. There would never have been any secession argument in the first place were it not for the issue of slavery.

I recommend the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me" for what I believe to be the definitive unbiased look at the Civil War and slavery, and Abraham Lincoln's motives and true feelings about slavery.

This kinda thread always makes me laugh at the hypocrisy.
just about every society has had slavery,the US was one of the first in history to STOP doing it.
I say screw history books look at the news.
upset about enslaved ancestors?
sad about natives of 300 yrs ago?

The KILLING NEVER STOPPED.
indigenous peoples are STILL getting their asses kicked for land or resources.TODAY,just not in your neighborhood so who cares?as long as it doesn't make you unhappy.

SLAVERY NEVER ENDED.
it's still alive and kicking.Especially in Africa(and it ain't white folk at the wheel either).Don't hear much about that do we but that's because it doesn't make you sad.
your great -great grandfather's plight is much more pressing let's discuss that.
freedocumentaries.org...
don't believe me?
do a google search if you can manage one.
still figuring out how to use this forum.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by the_grand_pooh-bah]

american slavery was different than other forms of slavery; the agriculture work was largely intolerable; in other times and areas where slavery existed it was a pool of beings who excelled at particular skills.american slavery opened the door for other nations to have slaves in the guise of how slavery is viewed now.

reply to post by Chainmaker

Slavery was eventually abolished due to the demands of White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant Christians, a party was formed specifically to outlaw slavery, the first presidential candidate of this new party was Abraham Lincoln, and the party was the Republicans.

Nope, you didn't have to be rich or wealthy to own a slave. Even what could be considered "middle class" could own a slave. And i'm speaking from accounts of former slaves and slave owners. Most of them weren't rich, but had enough to own a slave.

I'm not saying everyone had one, just enough to justify having over 1 million slaves in this country...now let's not act like the only slaves in America where the ones tending the fields.

Slavery was eventually abolished due to the demands of White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant Christians, a party was formed specifically to outlaw slavery, the first presidential candidate of this new party was Abraham Lincoln, and the party was the Republicans.

Wrong again. The first group that protested slavery was the Quakers who then became Abolitionists. LOL the republicans were never "against" slavery as in the sense it was morally wrong. They just didn't like the fact that the South was pullin in money off slavery and in turn political power. Besides they wanted all that labor for their factories!

A bloody war was fought over the issue of slavery, a war of white on white, and 620,000 men died, not including those wounded and maimed for life. Perhaps compare the casualties between World War 2, Vietnam, and Iraq with the Civil War casualties for a better idea of the price that was paid to end slavery.

*sigh* the civil war wasn't exclusively white on white. You see? This is exactly the kind of ignorance myself and others speak off on this board. Blacks tried to sign up with the Union in the very beginning and were turned away. But in the end because they were getting their ass handed to them, the Union used not only white troops but Native Americans and Black Americans.

After the Civil War, millions upon millions more people immigrated from Europe, and none of them had anything to do with the slavery that the whites already here had paid dearly to end with a bloody war.

Once again that is wrong. The civil war was not about slavery.

Hopefully no one actually thinks the Native Americans were living together in a peaceful utopia before the Europeans showed up, because being human, the tribes were cyclically slaughtering each other before Europeans ever came around.

Oh yea, you got proof of that? I agree it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows but i bet it was better than when the Europeans arrived.

The vast majority of modern day Americans arrived long after the Native Americans had been decimated by disease and the corralled into reservations

LOL i just gotta laugh at that statement...lol. The gold is what brought just about everyone here in the first place.

As it stands the Native Americans, between having free college available to them, and the casinos, and having the benefit of living in a technologically advanced first world nation, I don't think they are doing too bad.

Everyone needs to think about how lucky they are to live in America, not whine about the past.

Not to be offensive to anyone, but that is spoken like a true white person educated in public schools . If i had a dollar for every time that line is broken out. It's almost as hilarious as the "Hey, blacks are better of here than Africa!" Take a bow because your line of thinking is what is expected.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by cenpuppie]

[edit on 20-12-2009 by cenpuppie]

[edit on 20-12-2009 by cenpuppie]

[edit on 20-12-2009 by cenpuppie]

Are you serious Blacks never received reparations(40 acres and a mule) as promised(believe if we did I would be running a beautiful organic farm) and only 40 or so years ago granted the right to move freely without the threat of homicide by lynch mob or klan.

I understand when you say you as a white person didn't do these things but you have what is called white privilege. Whites generally receive advantages that others dont.
Take for instance in slave times when the white children went to the school, if a slave or black was caught educating themselves they would be mutilated or murdered(Tarred,feathered and burned, testicles cut off)

Does anyone remember segregation, jim crow law, lynching or that the US goverment has crushed or murdered every black leader or group of power or influence. I dont recall any other group of people that have dealt with this.

The fact thats blacks and africans are different should speak volumes.

I dont know any of these so called cry baby black people, I think the media has you brainwashed as much as you want to present how intelligent and important your opinions are. It gets deeper but I choose not to waste time, My whole family is college educated including grand parents.

If your sincerely interested use google . If you think racism no longer exist then you live on a different planet.

Last but not least please realize there are just as many people of colors that deal with the topics on hand here on ATS so that stereotypical judgment could be the difference between someone saving your life or taking it..

bless

well then that leads to the question of what forms of slavery are permissible?

I'm thinking financial might be ok morally but I still don't like it.
maybe short term indentured slavery?

Oh yeah just to update slavery in africa was different from americas.


In africa people did not die in warfare it was symbolic, until the british hit africa. That is why chaka zulu is championed because he fought violence with violence. In african slavery you wouuld take the women and make them your wife and the slaves would integrate into the tribe. It was nothing like the whip and chain, lynch happy saga we had in the states

reply to post by Doc Velocity


Interesting posts with lots facts. Nice one. And keep your tongue in.

Originally posted by gdeed
Yet the two big beefs about Americans are that they killed Indians and stole their land and they brought black slaves here. Baloney!
Millions of Chinese, Italians, Germans, Irish and people from every corner of the world came to America to escape tyranny in their own countries and to have a chance to make a life for themselves. They didn't kill or enslave anyone! So back off, all you haters of Americans!
Reparations are designed to dived and conquer America, and they are winning with deceit and baloney!




[edit on 20-12-2009 by gdeed]

-This land was stolen. toss out the name indians and insert the word people. This land was stolen from the people that inhabited it. They where killed because they chose to try and protect what was theirs. Thats murder and thievery.

-black people being brought here against there will is the tip of the iceberg. Black people where tortured, killed, raped and forced into labor and where paid with an extension on life.

fast forward to modern days. its the ignorant, disrespectfully sad views that people still have about both cultures that sickens us. That is the beef. people that come here from whatever countries are just as racist but cant act upon their feelings because it would be met with unflintching oposition. Its almost like a tradition that has been passed down through generations: "minorities" are inferior and should be treated as such. The title minority is just as disrespectful as the breath that a racist person takes everyday.

Oh sure.
America had BAD slavery.
everyone else had pizza parties and cotton candy and stuff.
I get it now...

reply to post by magnetik

Are you serious Blacks never received reparations(40 acres and a mule) as promised(believe if we did I would be running a beautiful organic farm) and only 40 or so years ago granted the right to move freely without the threat of homicide by lynch mob or klan.

Basically. People act like once black americans were freed, everything was good. Heh, undoing in 40 years what has been going on since this countries conception. And if it was up to white people (because only around 12% of them felt like black people were asking for too much too fast. I learned that in text book) i'd still be at the back of the bus. Poor black americans fought for not civil rights, but equal rights, you know those same rights that only applied if you was white.

Does anyone remember segregation, jim crow law, lynching or that the US goverment has crushed or murdered every black leader or group of power or influence. I dont recall any other group of people that have dealt with this.

Shh, from what i've read on this forum...the past don't count when it comes to that...just all the accomplishments made by others. Show love to the chinese to my homey, they got the negro treatment too while they were connecting east to west coast.

I dont know any of these so called cry baby black people, I think the media has you brainwashed as much as you want to present how intelligent and important your opinions are. It gets deeper but I choose not to waste time, My whole family is college educated including grand parents.

Whew ain't that the truth! Too many degrees in my family, getting a bachelors seems like your just starting.

RESPECT D.dreamer you pretty much summed it up. I as a person of color hold no beef from the past trials and tribulations , but only of the present. I try to recognize everyone's struggles and history because we are all connected by one real history

Here's a different perspective from a full-blood American...

My father's side of the family is comprised of several of the oldest European groups to settle America. It is comprised of French explorers and trappers who at one time or another either assisted the British or assassinated the British; Scottish mountain men who at one time or another either married the Indians or murdered the Indians; and German mercenaries brought in by the British to wipe out the American Patriots (tip o' the hat to my bloodthirsty anti-American Hessian relatives out there).

All of these volatile bloodlines collided somewhere in Pennsylvania just after the Revolution and then came South before turning West, marrying and murdering their way across the frontier.

In truth, they weren't all that discriminating in who they married or murdered — it could be anyone, for any reason. Understand, however, that in the post-Revolutionary-War frontier, there was a very thin line between murder and survival, and often there was no distinction whatsoever.

These ill-tempered souls were among the first white settlers of Texas; accordingly, they ended up marrying and murdering Mexicans in the protracted fight for Texas Independence.

Thereafter, some of my less noble ancestors went into the lucrative business of murdering settlers and travelers for their money and valuables. Again, they weren't terribly discriminating in who they hijacked and left for dead. These ancestors of mine were not the sensationalized bandits of the West, they weren't the colorful gunslingers or train robbers or bank robbers — however, if you're a serious student of Old West crime, you would probably recognize the names in a heartbeat.

Did they fight in the Civil War? Oh, yes, the ones in Texas did, massacring Federal forces trying to enter the state at Texarkana. I don't think my ancestors murdered the Union soldiers for any political ideology — I mean, some of my ancestors were marrying blacks at that time. So they probably fought in the Civil War just for the sake of killing.

Now, my mother's side of the family didn't arrive in America until the late 19th Century, so they missed a good deal of the slaughter. But my mom's family was very, very British, very civilized, with some blood of royalty in their veins. They were a civilized family coming to America in the Gilded Age, when the USA was finally becoming civilized itself.

How the hell this civilized English family collided with and married the bloodthirsty all-American family is a profound mystery — well, not really profound, but it's a puzzler.

The point of this trip down memory lane is to preface my next question:

To WHOM Do I Apologize??

My people have reproduced with virtually every race, we have fought and beaten-down and killed EVERYBODY for a variety of reasons — some noble, but mostly ignoble — so, to whom do I apologize?

It's like Pogo said, "We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us!"

Point being, you can't apologize for that which is beyond your control, for those misdeeds of your ancestors, because right now TODAY you're the victim as well as the perpetrator, genetically speaking. It's all mixed up. And the memory of it is all mixed up. And the history of it is all mixed up, thanks to the historical revisionists and ancient crime apologists.



— Doc Velocity







[edit on 12/20/2009 by Doc Velocity]

Doc Velocity No disrespect but , How are you full blooded American if your ancestors are from Europe ? 2 of my Great Grand Parents are full blood Americans as in Native to this land

[edit on 20-12-2009 by magnetik]

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by gdeed

 

What exactly are you trying to say? That no black people were enslaved and no Native Americans were killed?

If they didn't do it then who did?

Who ever did it are long gone. Americans are the Mexican, the Cubans, the Puerto Ricans, the Canadians, the Europeans that came here hundreds of years “after” those atrocities, The Asians, the Muslims, the Jews and on and on.

The "Vast" majority of Americans had nothing to do with bringing blacks to America. The vast Majority had nothing to do with stealing land or killing Indians.
In fact most people came to America and became Americans to get away from those kinds of atrocities.

The problem is that many of the people that came here had to do the go along to get along in order to be under the radar from the BLACKS and INDIANS. For the IRISH (they used to call us spud N****rs, patty, didn't even think we where part of the human race) we where treated horribly but many of us at the time still acted to keep others down in order to be on the "team". And if you say because of immigration and these immigrants didn't have slaves (normally you had to be a rich person to have slaves because of the costs and in fact alot of the whites in the south and before it was outlawed in the north hated it because they used slaves for work and it brought down the wage for free whites) and/or didn't kill indians, who was killing them and taking there land up till the 1970's. Or who made JIM CROW laws that disenfranchised the black male from being able to support his family, be a bank CEO, or whatever up till recently in the 80's and up. It wasn't that slave master, it was the society that was around that slave master that benefited from keeping THOSE people down. You see just like a household of abuse, the wife/people of this society enabled the slave owner and others in the power structure to continue this behavior long after the slave owner and others are gone.

We as a society that has been caught in a system that perpetuated itself through fear and hate. And I see cracks opening everyday of this system dying. Like everything that is dies, it fights tooth and nail trying to justify it's existence no matter what. And yes you me and others didn't do this or that to indians or blacks, but we benefitted from the ill gotten games of this apartheid for years.

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by gdeed

 

What exactly are you trying to say? That no black people were enslaved and no Native Americans were killed?

If they didn't do it then who did?

Who ever did it are long gone. Americans are the Mexican, the Cubans, the Puerto Ricans, the Canadians, the Europeans that came here hundreds of years “after” those atrocities, The Asians, the Muslims, the Jews and on and on.

The "Vast" majority of Americans had nothing to do with bringing blacks to America. The vast Majority had nothing to do with stealing land or killing Indians.
In fact most people came to America and became Americans to get away from those kinds of atrocities.

The problem is that many of the people that came here had to do the go along to get along in order to be under the radar from the BLACKS and INDIANS. For the IRISH (they used to call us spud N****rs, patty, didn't even think we where part of the human race) we where treated horribly but many of us at the time still acted to keep others down in order to be on the "team". And if you say because of immigration and these immigrants didn't have slaves (normally you had to be a rich person to have slaves because of the costs and in fact alot of the whites in the south and before it was outlawed in the north hated it because they used slaves for work and it brought down the wage for free whites) and/or didn't kill indians, who was killing them and taking there land up till the 1970's. Or who made JIM CROW laws that disenfranchised the black male from being able to support his family, be a bank CEO, or whatever up till recently in the 80's and up. It wasn't that slave master, it was the society that was around that slave master that benefited from keeping THOSE people down. You see just like a household of abuse, the wife/people of this society enabled the slave owner and others in the power structure to continue this behavior long after the slave owner and others are gone.

We as a society that has been caught in a system that perpetuated itself through fear and hate. And I see cracks opening everyday of this system dying. Like everything that is dies, it fights tooth and nail trying to justify it's existence no matter what. And yes you me and others didn't do this or that to indians or blacks, but we benefitted from the ill gotten games of this apartheid for years.

Originally posted by cenpuppie
reply to post by Chainmaker

Nope, you didn't have to be rich or wealthy to own a slave. Even what could be considered "middle class" could own a slave. And i'm speaking from accounts of former slaves and slave owners. Most of them weren't rich, but had enough to own a slave.

I'm not saying everyone had one, just enough to justify having over 1 million slaves in this country...now let's not act like the only slaves in America where the ones tending the fields.

The majority of white households in the South did NOT own slaves. You DID have to be at least moderately wealthy to own even one. The vast majority of slaves were owned by the super-rich elite plantation owners.

Wrong again. The first group that protested slavery was the Quakers who then became Abolitionists. LOL the republicans were never "against" slavery as in the sense it was morally wrong. They just didn't like the fact that the South was pullin in money off slavery and in turn political power. Besides they wanted all that labor for their factories!

The Quakers were radical White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants. The Quakers represent the same radical Christians that are now so despised and ridiculed today. I'm sorry you don't understand that. The Republican party was formed specifically for the pupose of outlawing slavery for moral reasons, it was formed by a split within the Whig Party, the radical abolitionists broke away from the Whigs who continually compromised on the slavery issue.

*sigh* the civil war wasn't exclusively white on white. You see? This is exactly the kind of ignorance myself and others speak off on this board. Blacks tried to sign up with the Union in the very beginning and were turned away. But in the end because they were getting their ass handed to them, the Union used not only white troops but Native Americans and Black Americans.

The Civil War was fought by VAST majority whites. I am not being ignorant in referring to that war as white on white. It was politically white on white and the soldiers fighting were almost nearly all white.

Once again that is wrong. The civil war was not about slavery.

Yes it was. I dare you to read the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me" You might be enlightened.

Oh yea, you got proof of that? I agree it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows but i bet it was better than when the Europeans arrived.

The proof of that has already been posted by Doc Velocity.

LOL i just gotta laugh at that statement...lol. The gold is what brought just about everyone here in the first place.

People came to America for freedom and economic prosperity, leaving everything behind. Looking for economic prosperity can include honest hard work or dishonest greed and theft. Certainly examples of both can be found in American history.

Originally posted by cenpuppie
reply to post by Chainmaker

Not to be offensive to anyone, but that is spoken like a true white person educated in public schools

. If i had a dollar for every time that line is broken out. It's almost as hilarious as the "Hey, blacks are better of here than Africa!" Take a bow because your line of thinking is what is expected.

Both those lines are broken out because they are true. Minorities in America have every opportunity now in 2009, and it sounds like your family has taken advantage of their opportunities and that is good.

Not to be offensive to you, but it seems that you hold reverse-racist views of American history. Your post attempts to take away all the positive actions of whites in American history and only allows for whites to be greedy, thieving, oppressors who were only ever capable of a good deed if they had an ulterior motive.

You do a disgrace to the hundreds of thousands of men who died in the Civil War fighting for the end of slavery, not for economic reasons. They laid down their lives and without them you would not have the opportunity you have today. Not every soldier in the Civil War was there for righteous reasons, but many abolitionists on the side of the North were, and I wish you could acknowledge that.

Again, people need to count their blessings. Every American has so much opportunity compared to most of the rest of the world. What we call poverty is a life of luxury to a large percentage of the world's population.

And one more time, read "Lies My Teacher Told Me"

Originally posted by magnetik
Doc Velocity No disrespect but , How are you full blooded American if your ancestors are from Europe ? 2 of my Great Grand Parents are full blood Americans as in Native to this land

Thank you for asking that question, magnetik, I really mean that. Now, I'm going to go through this one time, and I hope I don't have to repeat myself later.

First of all, I stated that my European ancestors repeatedly interbred with the Indians, which is the term I prefer over "Native American," and we've got so much native blood in my family, collected from the East Coast to the Gulf Coast to the American Southwest, we by God look like Indians, and we are tough like Indians, and we commune with the Earth like Indians, and we don't like other Indians, just like the real Indians do.

So, I'm more Indian than Fred Bear or Frank Waters, okay. And I'm a better hunter with a long bow than Fred Bear — I'll just put that out there for you archers. That qualifies me as Indian, for sure...

But 100% American is something else. See, I have a little trouble with Indians who insist on calling themselves Native American — The name "America" comes from Amerigo Vespucci, an Italian map-maker of the 15th Century who hypothesized that there was another continent out there in the Atlantic between Europe and India.

That's what European seafarers and trading companies were shooting for, a straight line to India. In popular history, the first European explorers thought they had reached India when they contacted the tribes of this continent. Which is how the tribes of North America came to be known as Indians... or Injuns, which I like even better.

I grew up unafraid of using the words "Indian" and "Injun" — it wasn't a slur at all. To me, it's like a badge of whimsical honor. Look at the incredible mistake of the Europeans, they're geographically-challenged, they thought I was an Indian! To me, it's a laugh, but I'll wear it as a badge of honor, and I know some people out there feel the same way. You know. Don't take my Indian away.

Native American, to me, means you're identifying with a 15th Century Italian mapmaker who was guessing there was a continent out there on the other side of the Atlantic. I mean, you're giving up your tribal name to take on an Italian name, for godsake.

So... Yeah, my family is steeped in the blood and history of North America, we were the goddamned Indians, we were the French, we were the burly OverMountain Men, we were the Hessians at Trenton (who got their asses kicked, BTW)...

Historically speaking, that's 100% American.


— Doc Velocity

if you honestly believe america is the name for a person named amerigo; i can see why your post sounds the way it does.