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Why the hatrid towards American soldiers, by Americans?

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posted on Dec, 19 2009 @ 09:10 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 
Not even close to the same thing. Your neighbor, really insulting. Just a thought.........you do pay taxes right, so in effect your arming the same people being discussed, our troops, .....did you indirectly pull the trigger, remember squeeze? Since you have no problem, along with the other seditious American posters here have no problem with telling our troops it's o.k. to go to prison for disobeying a lawfull order, buck up.....commit a felony by not paying your taxes. That way you're not a "killer" by proxy, and after all, it's better that you're in prison, than helping commit "murder" by proxy isn't it?



[edit on 19-12-2009 by adifferentbreed]




posted on Dec, 19 2009 @ 09:45 PM
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Im not american but i have served with american forces (who on the whole have perfect bodies and i spent the whole time trying not to think about their abs lol), but we all chewed the same dirt...

You yanks did the same thing to the vietnam vets, and now i see paradies of those poor guys who were CONSCRIPTED hence FORCED into action, and when they got there, the usual thing happens where you realise that it isnt about politics; we are here, we are getting fired upon (You civvies
should get off your soapbox and see what that is like!), our mates are dropping like flies, those same mates who bought me a pint in the pub last week and we had a great time; then all of a sudden we are here, going from one extreme to another, and that mate who bought me a pint in a pub last week is now in my arms minus a head... Going from the safety of the pub to being shot at in the matter of a week.. It stops being about politics too survival very quickly!! And it it also starts to be about the guy next to you... Not queen or country, but them... And you who sit in judgement of us; why dont you bravely step from behind your computer, sign up, and try to make a difference from the inside?? Try chewing our dirt. Try getting over your best mate dying in your arms, try living a normal life after being in intense combat for protracted periods.. Especially when a car back-fires and you end up in a neighbours garden?? Try being put in charge of peoples very LIVES, and muti million pounds worth of equiptment, then when you get out, you end up stacking shelves in wallmart!!

Believe me, we have ALL gone against orders from generals and politicians who are not on the ground and do not know what it is like!! We have all disobeyed illegal orders, yet they get hushed up.....

We have had our victories on that!! But you guys please support us!! We are that thin green line that stands between democracy and despotism. We are the guys and girls that post your mail (vets), that empty your trash, that serve you in resturants.... And we are the people who would die for you in a heart beat!!!

Politics doesnt deserve your support unless its right and just, and NO lie.. But we do ALL the time.... We ARE you....

[edit on 023131p://f18Sunday by Selahobed]



posted on Dec, 19 2009 @ 11:42 PM
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reply to post by adifferentbreed
 




Not even close to the same thing.


Isn't it? Why? How is it different?



you do pay taxes right
That way you're not a "killer" by proxy


I have not paid, nor have I been liable for, federal income taxes since approxmately 1999. However, why is that relevant? I was suggesting that the people who are pulling the trigger are at least as responsible as the people telling them to. How does it make sense to imply that that I'm an indirect enabler...when my whole point in the post you're replying to was to suggest that it's reasonable to blame the people directly involved instead of the people not directly involved?



Your neighbor, really insulting.


You have my permission to feel insulted if you want. But I challenge you to justify your position.

Someone --> tells you to kill your neighbor --> you do.

Politician --> tells soldier to kill someone in a foreign country --> he does.

Why are those so different? Especially if you're the personbeing killed, do you really care whether it was a politician or a general or a random passerby who gave the order? Or are you more concerned about the person pulling the trigger?

I suggest that if you kill your neighbor because someone told you so, you are more responsible for the death than the person who told you do to so. Similarly, if a soldier kills someone simply because somehow told him to, I suggest that he's more responsible for it than the person who gave the order.

Just following orders is not a proper defense.



posted on Dec, 19 2009 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


According to US law, by aiding in the "crime", you are guilty. i.e., if someone is killed during the commision of a crime those associated with the crime are just as guilty. You don't pay taxes.....hmmmmm. That says enough for me.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 12:24 AM
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reply to post by adifferentbreed
 




if someone is killed during the commision of a crime those associated with the crime are just as guilty.


You're avoiding the issue: whether or not the law places blame on people associated with a crime...the people performing the crime are guilty too.

This thread poses the question: "why are people angry at soldiers." And my answer is simple: because they're killing people. Dance all you want about whether someone is giving them orders to, and whether those people are also to blame. Doesn't change the fact that those soldiers are killing people. And some people are angry about that.

Why is this so difficult to understand?



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 12:37 AM
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reply to post by adifferentbreed
 


I do not pay income tax because I'm not liable to. I do only so much payed work to live my modest life and have some small reserve. My income is hence so small that I don't have to pay income tax. Why? Because modern western world is nothing more than unjust rat race and I want to participate as little as possible. Lowering my consumption also reduce my VAT payment and generally strengthen my independence. Instead of buying new thing, when old one broke, I buy tools and learn how to repair it. I do not want be rich in common sense of word. TPTB profits from every $ I get or give. So not everybody not paying taxes must be criminal.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 12:48 AM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


First.....I didn't say angry, I said hatred.......big difference. So not following orders or fulfilling the contract you signed is justification for hatred. I mean some of the people who post about our troops and veterans on hear are absolutely dispicable. I've asked before....what have any of you seditious people done about it?" Not a damn thing.....easy to judge from behind a key board...never having to look someone in the eye. I feel the question really is relevant why the hatred.....again, not why are you angry, why the hatred? Do atrocities occur, yup.......do the same ones happen in our country every day yup......thugs exist in every part of society....the military included. How about some of this putrid talk for those that commit the same crimes here at home, with out lawfull orders........not gonna happen except in certain instances for fear of being labeled something by professional victacrats, that's why. The military has always been an easy target for liberals with out the cajones to serve their country......but it's getting down right ridiculous........Oh it's illegal, have Congress do something about it when they are done rapeing the rest of the country, it's immoral.......so is most of the world,.......it's expensive........so is taking care of every person here illegally as well as those too lazy to get off their butt and get a job, it makes us look bad to the world......who cares? They still get to suckle the great teat of America.....they may not like it, but they like the backing........never gonna end is it............there is no wrong or right anymore.....that died after WWII, now it's only how can I demoralize someone doing something I'd never in a million years be capable of, just to make myself feel better.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 12:59 AM
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reply to post by zeddissad
 




I do not pay income tax because I'm not liable to. I do only so much payed work to live my modest life and have some small reserve. My income is hence so small that I don't have to pay income tax.


Exactly. There are a lot of people who can get away with not paying income taxes. Pretty much everyone on social security with no other income, anyone who makes less than 10-20 thousand per year depending on filing status, more if they still have dependants, anyone living abroad making less than 90K/year...there are a lot of ways to avoid paying income taxes. It actually used to be really easy to do back when the deduction for living abroad didn't have the 330 day residency requirement.

Of course, owning a property free and clear and not owning a car makes it a lot easier to survive under the minimum income number.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 01:18 AM
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reply to post by adifferentbreed
 




I feel the question really is relevant why the hatred.....again, not why are you angry, why the hatred?


Personally I don't hate soldiers. They've simply made choices that I would not. But you've asked why some people disapprove of them...and I've already answered that question. Whether the "emotional severity" of their disapproval extends into anger or hatred is fairly irrelevant.

Think of it this way...imagine that a total stranger...someone you don't know and will never meet...killed somebody. How would that make you feel? Now...imagine that your son killed somebody. How would that make you feel?

For some people, when "our" soldiers kill, that's a more emotionally relevant event than when "total strangers" kill someone. Why? Because in a way they feel personally responsible. It's not so distant.

Whether anger, hatred, or merely stern disapproval..that is why people feel the way they do.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 05:28 AM
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well i completely agree with your thread,
still i won't hate soldiers but i blame them.. what they do is follow order, whatever the order is..
these soldiers have also brain who are in afghanistan and iraq.. they can understand the whole war is nothing but a political game for elites for their benefits...
they are being used for killing people,...
and they are proud ?.....for the oil ..i guess??



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by adifferentbreed
It seems, as time goes by that more and more posters here delight in posting anti American videos, as well as decrying the troops in really vile ways. Do bad things happen? Yes, but for every negative video posted, you could just as easily post a positive one.
I guess commiting sedition, without fear of prosecution, due in no small part to our liberally biased media, is easier than actually making a change. Before posting about how evil and vile our troops are, perhaps realize they are doing a job you never could do. It seems, alot of people on here tend to paint the military with a rather broad brush.....how would that work on other topics, I wonder?
Since a right wing Christian bombed an abortion clinic, all Christians are Evil.
Since a few Muslims have killed their off spring through honour killings, all Muslims are bad.
Since black rappers seem to glorify the thus life, all blacks are thugs.
None of these comments make any sense at all......yet this same logic is applied to our troops all of the time. Why?


To begin with, I have not seen any preponderance of any media "decrying the troops in really vile ways". If you're pointing to YouTube videos posted there, I have to point to the many times on this forum where YouTube is decried as non-evidence.
The thought that anyone would delight in portraying our troops as the perpetrators of vile acts strikes me as truly vile. I am one who believes that any crime committed during acts of war, are crimes perpetrated by those that created said war. Reading the posts here, I'm not alone in this belief.
I can't bring myself to believe the soldiers involved in any such acts weren't trained and conditioned, and maybe ordered, to do so. Any prosecution should be balanced by the mindset created by the training.
As to "committing sedition"; I doubt that any U.S. citizen not in the military should ever fear prosecution of that: en.wikipedia.org...
Finally, I don't think you really believe that no one else could do what you and so many others are doing, you've just been trained and conditioned to believe that.
You and your brothers in arms are needed, sadly all too often. I hope you can understand the gratitude I feel for your sacrifice in this post. If it's not apparent, Thank You. Those of you who have gone to war for our country are heroes, regardless of the legality of the war. I truly understand and appreciate your desire to serve.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by Dogdish
 

In the Espionage Act of 1917, Section 3 made it a crime, punishable by up to 20 years of imprisonment and a fine of up to $10,000, to willfully spread false news of the Ameircan army and navy with an intent to disrupt their operations, to foment mutiny in their ranks, or to obstruct recruiting. This Act of Congress was amended Sedition Act of 1918, which expanded the scope of the Espionage Act to any statement criticizing the Government of the United States. These Acts were upheld in 1919 in the case of Schenck v. United States, but they were largely repealed in 1921, leaving laws forbidding foreign espionage in the United States and allowing military censorship of sensitive material.
Don't know about that, organizations such as Code Pink certainly are guilty of this, and certain MSM members as well.......



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by adifferentbreed
 

Hiya!
This is from the (Wikipedia) link:
United States
[edit] Civilian

There have been 24 attempts in the United States to regulate speech that has been deemed seditious. In 1798, President John Adams signed into law the Alien and Sedition Acts, the fourth of which, the Sedition Act or "An Act for the Punishment of Certain Crimes against the United States" set out punishments of up to two years of imprisonment for "opposing or resisting any law of the United States" or writing or publishing "false, scandalous, and malicious writing" about the President or the U.S. Congress, but specifically not the Vice-President. This Act of Congress was allowed to expire in 1801 after the election of Thomas Jefferson to the Presidency. He had been the Vice-President at the time of the Act's passage.

In the Espionage Act of 1917, Section 3 made it a crime, punishable by up to 20 years of imprisonment and a fine of up to $10,000, to willfully spread false news of the Ameircan army and navy with an intent to disrupt their operations, to foment mutiny in their ranks, or to obstruct recruiting. This Act of Congress was amended Sedition Act of 1918, which expanded the scope of the Espionage Act to any statement criticizing the Government of the United States. These Acts were upheld in 1919 in the case of Schenck v. United States, but they were largely repealed in 1921, leaving laws forbidding foreign espionage in the United States and allowing military censorship of sensitive material.

In 1940, the Alien Registration Act, or "Smith Act", was passed, which made it a crime to advocate or to teach the desirability of overthrowing the United States Government, or to be a member of any organization which does the same. It was often used against Communist Party organizations. This Act was invoked in three major cases, one of which against the Socialist Worker's Party in Minneapolis in 1941, resulting in 23 convictions, and again in what became known as the Great Sedition Trial of 1944 in which a number of pro-Nazi figures were indicted but released when the prosecution ended in a mistrial. Also, a series of trials of 140 leaders of the Communist Party USA also relied upon the terms of the "Smith Act" - beginning in 1949 - and lasting until 1957. Although the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the convictions of 11 CPUSA leaders in 1951, that same Court reversed itself in 1957 in the case of Yates v. United States, by ruling that teaching an ideal, no matter how harmful it may seem, does not equal advocating or planning its implementation. Although unused since at least 1961, the "Smith Act" remains a Federal law.

Laura Berg, a nurse at a U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs hospital in New Mexico was investigated for sedition in September 2005[13] after writing a letter[14][15] to the editor of a local newspaper, accusing several national leaders of criminal negligence. Though their action was later deemed unwarranted by the director of Veteran Affairs, local human resources personnel took it upon themselves to request an FBI investigation. Ms. Berg was represented by the ACLU[16]. Charges were dropped in 2006[1].
[edit] Military

Sedition is a punishable offense under the United States Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 94[17].

It (sedition law) is in my opinion unconstitutional, especially evidenced by the way this country was founded. It seems that the results of previous attempts to prosecute would prove my opinion correct.
Then again, these are strange days, and the Constitution doesn't seem to hold sway anymore.
This is the first I've heard of the Code Pink ladies. I think I like what they do, at least what I've found through Google... Here's one of their slogans:

"Love the troops, Hate the War"



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 10:16 AM
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From what I can see, Its not the soldiers per say but rather how they are used. (in multiple senses of the word)



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 10:27 AM
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So what they have done to recruiters in California doesn't qualify? Does it not say affect recruitment?



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by adifferentbreed
 


Well, this is from my quote, above:
These Acts were upheld in 1919 in the case of Schenck v. United States, but they were largely repealed in 1921, leaving laws forbidding foreign espionage in the United States and allowing military censorship of sensitive material.

The law is basically not there anymore, if the wiki link is correct.

I only know about what they're doing to recruiters from their website. It seems as though there would be prosecution if it were an option.
Is this the issue, the zoning laws?

After my ASVAB tests, I was promised the world from the Marines. Since then, and from many others stories, I've developed the opinion that they're in it for the money. This makes it difficult to sympathize.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by adifferentbreed
It seems, as time goes by that more and more posters here delight in posting anti American videos, as well as decrying the troops in really vile ways. Do bad things happen? Yes, but for every negative video posted, you could just as easily post a positive one.
I guess commiting sedition, without fear of prosecution, due in no small part to our liberally biased media, is easier than actually making a change. Before posting about how evil and vile our troops are, perhaps realize they are doing a job you never could do. It seems, alot of people on here tend to paint the military with a rather broad brush.....how would that work on other topics, I wonder?
Since a right wing Christian bombed an abortion clinic, all Christians are Evil.
Since a few Muslims have killed their off spring through honour killings, all Muslims are bad.
Since black rappers seem to glorify the thus life, all blacks are thugs.
None of these comments make any sense at all......yet this same logic is applied to our troops all of the time. Why?


Bash the bad troops... that's my plan...

Seriously though, if anyone wants to bash American's with guns, start with the unregulated scumbags that kill for money, often against the interests of the troops and America... that's right I'm talking about you Blackwater and you the The CIA.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 11:10 AM
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Not particularly aware of that. The military is rather like the police. Probably 90% join with the best of intentions. But, weak and feeble minded as most people are, a good percent of the 90% get suckered in to believing in the cause. It is especially true since speaking up isn't a good career move. But, at heart I believe at least 50% and probably up to 80% of the military or police still have a good heart and detest wrongful actions. The problem is they have a hard time determining what wrong action is.

It's easy to confuse the "military" with the hard core mercenaries (private contractors) that are used by the military.

I would suspect that efforts to demonize the military are just propaganda to facilitate anarchy. Prejudging is not a good practice. It's better to see what actually happens.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by Dogdish
 


Their website.....zoning laws? C'mon, I know it's Sunday morning but really?



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by adifferentbreed
 


Here's what I googled: recruiters in California code pink
Here's what I got: www.google.com... =&aqi=

Go ahead and say what it is they've done. I certainly won't take anything they've done personally.
Their website said zoning laws. Obviously their website will be biased toward their cause, but it seems there is very little information available.
Here is a site from the other side of this fence: michellemalkin.com...

Is there more? Get it out here, all I can do until then is plead ignorance.



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