Communism, there is no worse destiny for mankind.

Originally posted by Tiger5
"communism on one hand is the very epitomy of what the élite want to impose on us and capitalism is based on profiteering and favours the rich, it is none the more "superior" or "better" unless you happen to be part of the minority who benefits from third world"

But aren't the rich also the elite?

Do youmean communism or totalitarianism?

T

No the rich don't have to be elite. Youre caught up too much in class warfare. If you hit the lottery or invent something that makes you rich, would you be intellectually honest enough at that point consider yourself " elite" ? Would you fall for all of the same trappings that you blanket on the elite?

Communism is totalitarianism. The 20th century is evidence of that.

reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf


If your lottery winner picked up their winnings would they enter a bell jar and seal themselves away?

No they would find others rich people in 9cases out of ten. In rare cases they will give it all way but very few of us want to be poor! It stinks to be poor! My point is after a few years of association with similarly wealthy they will join or seek to join and be courted to join the elite. There are level of snobbery with the elite but believe you me once they have aquired the trappings of wealth they will seek to pass themselves of and align with the elite and hence be indistinguishable.

Communism is totalitarianism. Funny with this current generation American (the home of freedomamd capitalism) has lurched closer to totalitarianism. Even the Bushes have advocated more government and more state entry into the home. That is all around you. That is why I am against all forms of totalitarianism.

Originally posted by Tiger5
reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

If your lottery winner picked up their winnings would they enter a bell jar and seal themselves away?

I for one would buy a very large boat and tour the world. That just me.

No they would find others rich people in 9cases out of ten. In rare cases they will give it all way but very few of us want to be poor! It stinks to be poor! My point is after a few years of association with similarly wealthy they will join or seek to join and be courted to join the elite. There are level of snobbery with the elite but believe you me once they have aquired the trappings of wealth they will seek to pass themselves of and align with the elite and hence be indistinguishable.

Boy you sure have human nature figured out dont you? Good luck with that.



[edit on 21-2-2010 by Thirty_Foot_Smurf]

Originally posted by Xtraeme
reply to post by gdeed

 

Based on the videos, which I assume mimic your personal beliefs, it becomes clear that Lenin acted the way he did because he believed Darwin's theory showed that humans were little more than evolved apes which to Lenin implied people could be conditioned like animals. Also the purist notion of dialectical disagreement causing necessary conflict can also be seen as another motive for such harsh treatment of the Russian people with the assumption being that the citizens must be forced, not argued with, to come to agreement.

Obviously Lenin was taking these ideologies to their extremes, eliminating all notions of morality, seeing difference as the enemy rather than as a benefit to his people, and in general perverting the notion of the means of production being for the equal benefit of all people. It's not hard to see that Lenin and Stalin's Russia was the product of several philosophies. The least of which seemed to be socialism, in the sense that the people were taken care of, and more the idea that people must be forced to behave a particular way.

Clearly it was not the socialistic aspect of communism that was at fault, but rather a lack of compassion and common sense. People are not homogeneous, nor does we want to be, which is why the US's capitalistic republic largely works. However where capitalism fails is it promotes efficiency with complete disregard for the humans in the system that have stumbled along the way.

And surprise, surprise, the reason capitalists say this is good thing is because it promotes Darwin's survival of the fittest similar to what Lenin was promoting during his reign of terror.

Now I'm not saying that the Darwinian notion of efficiency is bad in its own right (because its not), but I am saying what's needed is a balance amongst all philosophies. People neither want to be managed by the state nor do we want to be destroyed simply because certain humans don't fit the ideals of the paradigm they were born in to. As in every society there will always be people at the bottom of the food chain that still deserve basic human decency despite not fitting in to the perfect design of society's goals.

For example, in a meritocracy, excellence being the ultimate goal-post, not all people should be treated in accordance with the value they contribute back to society. Because like any class-based system where social class is strictly defined, a meritocracy can just as easily be a dystopia as it can a utopia (i.e. read Michael Young's, Rise of the Meritocracy).

So the key take-away here seems to be this: no one philosophy is better than any other because over enough time-and-space any given problem addressed by a philosophy will be conquered and thus a new challenge will emerge. In understanding this it's easy to see that efficiency isn't the end-all-and-be-all because when we eventually get to a post 0-exigency world (implying either robotics, fusion, or any other host of technology) efficiency won't be as important because society through efficiency over time eventually makes all people unnecessary.

[edit on 19-12-2009 by Xtraeme]

hey mr.gdeed why dont you answer this guy right here he has actually giving not only a answer but has added logic something you should learn about and dont just answer that commies are bad and other bull#$^* i want you to explain to me why its bad i want you to tell me dont show me videos because they mean nothing they where made by someone else and if anything your just following him because it justifies they way you feel but the main problem regardless if your ideas are justified by someone else it does not make it correct

[edit on 21-2-2010 by truth_of_truth]

communism is a very very beautiful idea..how peoples living in symbiosis..
But the way the human genetic greed fall out, it´s only going to be an beautiful idea..

Originally posted by swecret
communism is a very very beautiful idea..how peoples living in symbiosis..
But the way the human genetic greed fall out, it´s only going to be an beautiful idea..

Killing people that haven't quantified their right to live is a very very beautiful idea..its how the productive people of a communist society live in symbiosis. But the human genetic greed of self preservation gets in the way so its only ever going to be a beautiful idea. sigh...

reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

“not entirely no you just got hung up in that”??

"Capitalism is the ultimate in natural law. It is survival if the fittest in the lassies fair economical arena."

There it is, what you clearly stated, and I haven’t edited that quote down or anything.
It seems to me that you contradict yourself by saying that “governments who employ capitalism fail because it turns on its own citizenry” (& im assuming you were referring to the former, since that it was the subject of my sentence that you quoted) and then going on to promote profiteering within the rest of your response.
I have no need for your assumptive accusations. I stand for freedom and the truth and equal rights. i used to advocate "socialist democracy" in the past because i think it was the political term that comes closest to my ideals, if its utopian, fine call it so but I have stated many times before but what we’re being given here is an illusion of “choice” or “either, or”, when there really isn’t, it all comes down to the same thing, ultimately leading to the slaughterhouse but clearly you’re blinded regarding that fact.
I don’t need to be told to “do some homework” I laugh at you coming at me like im some pre-school kid so spare me your condescending mannerisms and quotes by people like vanderleun who post pitiful articles and crap like "left wing bingo cards" on sites like americandigest.org??
please

[edit on 27/11/09 by harlinskee]

[edit on 27/11/09 by harlinskee]

Originally posted by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

Originally posted by Tiger5
"communism on one hand is the very epitomy of what the élite want to impose on us and capitalism is based on profiteering and favours the rich, it is none the more "superior" or "better" unless you happen to be part of the minority who benefits from third world"

But aren't the rich also the elite?

Do youmean communism or totalitarianism?

T

Communism is totalitarianism. The 20th century is evidence of that.

took the words right out of my mouth

Originally posted by harlinskee
reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf


Pease what? Truth is truth no matter who says it. If you cant destroy the message destroy the messenger right?

I cant honestly see where youre getting off track here. I'm not contradicting myself either. It seems as though youre stuck in a looping thought process. Let me say it again.

"Capitalism is the ultimate in natural law. It is survival if the fittest in the lassies fair economical arena."

The lassies fair economic model is the most nimble and self correcting model. Again do some homework.

"Capitalism is the ultimate in natural law. It is survival if the fittest in the lassies fair economical arena."

There it is, what you clearly stated, and I haven’t edited that quote down or anything.
It seems to me that you contradict yourself by saying that “governments who employ capitalism fail because it turns on its own citizenry”

You really need to re-read my earlier post guy I said no such thing. My quote is as plain as day. Communism turns on its own citizenry not Capitalism. Get it straight.

I used to advocate "socialist democracy" in the past because i think it was the political term that comes closest to my ideals

Not surprising since I cant think of a faster way toward communism.

I don’t need to be told to “do some homework” I laugh at you coming at me like im some pre-school kid so spare me your condescending mannerisms and quotes by people like vanderleun who post pitiful articles and crap like "left wing bingo cards" on sites like americandigest.org??

Like I said truth is truth no matter who says it. Would you rather me pull something off the huff post?

I will spare no condescending mannerism if you cant even read the posts correctly. And then add insult to injury by commenting on your misunderstanding.


[edit on 21-2-2010 by Thirty_Foot_Smurf]

Originally posted by truth_of_truth

hey mr.gdeed why dont you answer this guy right here he has actually giving not only a answer but has added logic something you should learn about and dont just answer that commies are bad and other bull#$^* i want you to explain to me why its bad i want you to tell me dont show me videos because they mean nothing they where made by someone else and if anything your just following him because it justifies they way you feel but the main problem regardless if your ideas are justified by someone else it does not make it correct

[edit on 21-2-2010 by truth_of_truth]

Let me give this a shot truth-

Your guy is talking philosophy gdeed and I would be talking reality.
Big difference. Show me where communism has been successful.
What successful Communist country do you want to live in?
donny

Originally posted by Thirty_Foot_Smurf
Originally posted by harlinskee
reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

 

Pease what? Truth is truth no matter who says it. If you cant destroy the message destroy the messenger right?

that saying is one that to me comes straight from the mouth of someone who has poorly chosen his source (a demotivational poster?) and cannot defend its' author.
the quote you chose (and tried to make your own) said this:

there are some lies that lodge so deep in the hopes of man that they can never be killed no matter ho many are executed to make it true.

funnily enough, many atheists would say the same thing about Christianity, south americans about the spanish etc. it is a quote that you can apply to a wide range of different contexts, and is not specific to Communism.

your sources are relevant believe it or not, especially when it comes to trying to argue with me and telling me to "do my homework", because forgive me, but you certainly dont come like no teacher.

"Capitalism is the ultimate in natural law. It is survival if the fittest in the lassies fair economical arena."

The lassies fair economic model is the most nimble and self correcting model.

and before trying to tell me to "do my homework", i would appreciate it if you learnt how to spell, i find it quite insulting.

You really need to re-read my earlier post guy I said no such thing. My quote is as plain as day. Communism turns on its own citizenry not Capitalism. Get it straight.

"what so you're then coming to the conclusion that capitalism is the "superior" system because it "more closely matches the darwinian theory of evolution"?"

"Not entirely no. You just got got hung up in that. I'm also saying that governments that employ it fail because it turns on its own citizenry."


it seems like "it" in this sentence is referring to capitalism does it not. not meaning to be rude mr. 30 foot smurf but i still think you're the one whose confused, leading me further into confusion and then complaining about being "misunderstood"

i have said what i needed concerning political ideologies, and seeing that you have nothing to respond to regarding those parts of my response, i therefore see no point in answering further to your clearly muddled up posts. ive taken my stand and that was my 2 cents, basta.

Originally posted by harlinskee



If you don't like that saying tough. I'll defend it to the end. I don't care if you don't like who said it it doesn't make it any less true. You don't like the message so you try to destroy the messenger. You've made that perfectly clear. do you disagree with that statement? You cant. The 20th century proves it to be absolutely and without question true.

Typical of your type when you feel cornered you always go to divert the conversation to race or religion. Fine, I'll take that as a compliment.

And as for the spelling...Dude...I invite you to go back and check all your posts for spelling and grammar...I was temped to start correcting your mistakes in my replies but I just don't have that much time.

I spelled laissez faire that way because it agreed with my spell checker.

Man I gotta say...Its like to potty train a baby trying to explain this to you. You are just thick. You pasted my responses out of order to cover your ass. Way to go guy..way to go.

[edit on 21-2-2010 by Thirty_Foot_Smurf]

reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf


defend what you wish, i argued what i found was wrong with it and you failed to come with an adequate response. as for spelling & grammar mistakes, this isnt actually an english essay so i care not for the odd typos and punctuation marks omitted, it was just that i was quite surprised that you would spell a term that was so central to your fiscal conservatism so disgustingly incorrectly.
i myself believe that the market does not regulate itself, it is manipulated like a puppet on strings.
do not pretend to know me or pigeonhole me as a "type", it only serves to ridicule yourself further. and i state again that i have made my point concerning ideologies, not without lack of information or due to ignorance, and you still have come with no response to it. i can only conclude that you're only looking for conflict. i dont think ive acted hostile in the slightest, apologies if you interpreted it that way.

Originally posted by harlinskee
reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

 

defend what you wish, i argued what i found was wrong with it and you failed to come with an adequate response. as for spelling & grammar mistakes, this isnt actually an english essay so i care not for the odd typos and punctuation marks omitted, it was just that i was quite surprised that you would spell a term that was so central to your fiscal conservatism so disgustingly incorrectly.
i myself believe that the market does not regulate itself, it is manipulated like a puppet on strings.
do not pretend to know me or pigeonhole me as a "type", it only serves to ridicule yourself further. and i state again that i have made my point concerning ideologies, not without lack of information or due to ignorance, and you still have come with no response to it. i can only conclude that you're only looking for conflict. i dont think ive acted hostile in the slightest, apologies if you interpreted it that way.

Communism....there are some lies that lodge so deep in the hopes of man that they can never be killed no matter ho many are executed to make it true.


What you found wrong with it was the source and but it doesn't make it any less true. Is the statement a lie? if you say yes it is a lie then you are wrong and the 20th century is evidence of that. do a little homework into how many communist countries have turned on their own citizenry and then how many of those citizens they killed.

My response was that you are wrongheaded when it comes to the market system. It is self correcting but when they try to pull the strings; as is evident when you introduce government control; that is exactly what screws the market self correcting ability up.

Its all political. Good luck with all your prosperity when applying that principle.


[edit on 22-2-2010 by Thirty_Foot_Smurf]

Originally posted by truth_of_truth

hey mr.gdeed why dont you answer this guy right here he has actually giving not only a answer but has added logic something you should learn about and dont just answer that commies are bad and other bull#$^* i want you to explain to me why its bad i want you to tell me dont show me videos because they mean nothing they where made by someone else and if anything your just following him because it justifies they way you feel but the main problem regardless if your ideas are justified by someone else it does not make it correct

[edit on 21-2-2010 by truth_of_truth]

There is nothing good about communism because it brings out the worst in human nature. Communist are very greedy, they want to live off others without puting forth effort. In a perfect world there would be nothing wrong with that but this is not a perfect world and most people have to earn their own way. Communist have no intentions of earning their own way it they did they would be capitalists.

reply to post by gdeed


well capitalism is made for slavery it breeds a environment where only profits matter and not the people me im not a commie im a socialist i believe in a world run by the workers we workers should control the means of production everything is for everyone money creates slaves



"I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate (the) grave evils (of capitalism), namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society."
— Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?, 1949

[edit on 22-2-2010 by truth_of_truth]

Originally posted by truth_of_truth
reply to post by gdeed

 

well capitalism is made for slavery it breeds a environment where only profits matter and not the people me im not a commie im a socialist i believe in a world run by the workers we workers should control the means of production everything is for everyone money creates slaves

Captialism has eliminated slavery, socialist and communisits keep it alive.

"I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate (the) grave evils (of capitalism), namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society."
— Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?, 1949

[edit on 22-2-2010 by truth_of_truth]

Stalin, Castro, Chaves, Kim Jong and many more social do gooders have followed that idea to the tee and created mass misery for millions.

Albert Einstein has come up with some good ideas, and some very bad ones too. Sure it sounds good on paper but it sucks in real life because it has never worked. Capitalism is the only system that has consistantly stopped poverty and slavery.

reply to post by gdeed


it has created the idea of freedom but has in reality made everyone a slave with the illusion of freedom

Einstein was a mathematician not someone who could be trusted with governance. Just look at his personal life.. Sure he was a brilliant mathematician but had poor judgement elsewhere.