ATS has been infiltrated with agents of ignorance!

yea3h, seriously, tell me about it!

speak up

Watch this video..........





to say the same exact a things, about it's, I was!
Nice thread.

Originally posted by Doglord

Originally posted by downisreallyup

If you say "aliens exist" and I say "no they don't", it then becomes necessary for each of us to present objective evidence either for or against, if indeed any kind of progress is to be achieved.

Incorrect, it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist. If someone claims that a thing does exist, he must then offer proof supporting that contention. Those arguing that something doesn't exist, or is unlikely to exist, are only responsible for evaluating and responding to the evidence provided by those arguing that a thing does exist.

It seems to me that much of your "issue" has to do with a basic misunderstanding, or possibly even ignorance, of the structure of logic and reason.

Did I say anything about PROVING? Nope! Another attempt at deflection by using misquoting. I simply said that if conversation is to progress, both sides should bring forth reasonable arguments based on evidence. I know that something can't be "proven" to exist, but things can be looked at from a postulation perspective based on logic and reason.

That's funny that you would accuse me of not being logical

I've been a highly successful software engineer for over 30 years and anyone who knows me knows that I am nothing but logical. Just the fact that you would conclude what you did about me shows your lacking in the logic department... to wit, I will establish:

1) I never claimed in my example that both sides could prove anything.
2) I stated quite correctly that both parties should provide evidence for their respective positions, preferably using rules of evidence.
3) I stated that this was so the conversation could PROGRESS in some sort of positive manner.

I soundly reject the idea that evidence is only up to the person who wishes to prove something DOES exist. If that were a sound position, that is what would be done in courtrooms. The fact is, when it comes to God, aliens, free-energy, big foot, etc., nobody has PROOF one way or the other if something exists. Even if you see something with your own eyes, you can't be 100% sure, and certainly nobody else can be sure.

To show that there are two ways to understand proof of something, let me quote a man who was fairly intelligent:

No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong. Albert Einstein

So, in like manner, no amount of evidence can every prove that these things don't exist, and only a single example can prove they do exist. If that is the case, then the skeptics position should always be "I don't know if these things exist or are true. I will await for some evidence to be presented." But that is not what we hear here, nooooooooooooooo! We hear "these DO NOT EXIST! Anyone who thinks they exist are stupid FOOLS! It is an absolute fact that these things CANNOT exist!"

THAT is my complaint, right there. The people who claim that something does not exist do so with no evidence, and in fact, they can never provide any evidence, and they state their position with absoluteness, and even insult the people who don't agree with them.

On the other hand, the people who think these things exist try their hardest to provide evidence, stating facts, providing references, but those who "don't believe" just ignore their evidence, castigate it, or otherwise scorn it. The very people who can never prove their position have the audacity to state their position as fact, while the people who can prove their position have their evidence rejected for any and every possible reason.

Sheer stupidity and ridiculousness!

reply to post by downisreallyup

The very people who can never prove their position have the audacity to state their position as fact, while the people who can prove their position have their evidence rejected for any and every possible reason.

Well said!
Great post!
Star!



[edit on 19-12-2009 by dodadoom]

Originally posted by downisreallyup
You claim that I am so ready to believe this is possible, and I see that you who doubt are so ready to disbelieve it... it's as if you hope it is a fraud.

I know where your problem lies… You take stuff on here too personally…
I did not read your thread that you are complaining about, and really could care less about “Free Energy”, as in every instance that we have seen in the past they have turned out to be frauds. So what you are stating above is nothing more then an assumption of what you think is going through my mind, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth, and I was simply answering your question of, “WHY ARE THEY DOING IT?”…

Maybe their doing it because Free Energy defies the first law of Thermodynamics.
Maybe their doing it because we have seen fraud after fraud claiming “zero point energy”.
Maybe their doing it because extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof that you have not satisfied.
…And maybe you’re taking the above things personally, when they are simply normal skepticism.

Your new, so lighten up, and don’t take everything so personally. There are far fewer real conspiracies out there then folks here would have you think.

Personally, I’ll believe in zero point energy when I can run my house off it, not because someone claims to have found a way to do it on the internet.

Originally posted by kyred
reply to post by downisreallyup

 

You are like, oh, how do I say it. New here. And I'm supposed to believe that new people are here to save me from ignorance and disinformation. Infiltrated? Heh. WTF?

Incorrect assessment of my comment. The emphasis was not on NEWNESS, it was on the issue of how conversations are carried out, and whether a person at least makes an effort to provide some reasoning behind their statements.

S&F

simply Yes

ignorance=power

but now it's week end for everybody

They work hard since norway lights arrives now they will take some break
10 harassing days

set a meeting for monday morning

like in every company

[edit on 19-12-2009 by mixmix]

Originally posted by downisreallyup
reply to post by LocoHombre

 

At any rate, this site is all about conspiracy, and part of discussing conspiracy is to discuss the tactics used by conspiracy participants. What is your problem with that? If you don't want to discuss conspiracy, even those parts of it that touch ATS directly, then why are you on ATS? That is what we do here... discuss conspiracy, and this particular board topic it is specifically addressing the very thing I brought up in the post.

I keep seeing these posts that this site is about CONSPIRACY. Well the name of the site is Above Top Secret not Conspiracy Theory. I see lots of threads on here that have nothing to do with a conspiracy. It really gets old when I see people jump into a thread that obviously has nothing to do with conspiracy, it could be a discussion about anything and we get these "where is the conspiracy?' posts and a lot of ranting by people who apparently would be happy to argue with the wall for the sake of argument. Also the dimwits who simply declare that their opinion is God's honest truth and no need for any more discussion..move along next victim please. Would be nice to see a few more manners if that is possible these days.

yeah seriously, ats is not what it used to be....its funny how your talking in a forum on a website that believes in aliens yet you always settle for arguments which go against belief in these entities and more towards what the mainstream media supports

reply to post by defcon5

"Maybe their doing it because Free Energy defies the first law of Thermodynamics."

This is where people need to take another look at current science on this subject. Zero Point Energy does NOT violate the first law of thermodynamics, and has it has been acknowledged by the physics community that it does not. ZPE is an implementation of possible ways to use the Casimir effect to extract energy from the vacuum and those ways are being pursued by many legitimate researchers. There are in any thing like that going to be some outright frauds, some well meaning people who think they have something and eventually some breakthroughs.

It should not be dismissed so quickly.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by downisreallyup
You claim that I am so ready to believe this is possible, and I see that you who doubt are so ready to disbelieve it... it's as if you hope it is a fraud.

Maybe their doing it because Free Energy defies the first law of Thermodynamics.
...
Your new, so lighten up, and don’t take everything so personally. There are far fewer real conspiracies out there then folks here would have you think.
...
Personally, I’ll believe in zero point energy when I can run my house off it, not because someone claims to have found a way to do it on the internet.

First of all, none of the reputable radiant energy generators claim to violate the 1st law, in fact, the Bedini motor is expressly explained to NOT violate thermodynamics. So this argument is a red-herring. I really think that the people at Seorn don't fully understand why their machine works. The only good explanation I've heard if from Bedini.

Secondly, my being new has nothing to do with anything. I take things personally when people discredit things I say without offering anything in response except insults. Let them provide facts or arguable information and I will be most happy to engage them, fact for fact, argument for argument, point for point, link for link, and if in the end they persuade me, I will be happy to thank them for helping me understand better.

Lastly, if you are brave enough, take a solid look at the following document from calphysics:

Calphysics Institute article on ZPE

Originally posted by expat2368
reply to post by defcon5

 

"Maybe their doing it because Free Energy defies the first law of Thermodynamics."

This is where people need to take another look at current science on this subject. Zero Point Energy does NOT violate the first law of thermodynamics, and has it has been acknowledged by the physics community that it does not. ZPE is an implementation of possible ways to use the Casimir effect to extract energy from the vacuum and those ways are being pursued by many legitimate researchers. There are in any thing like that going to be some outright frauds, some well meaning people who think they have something and eventually some breakthroughs.

It should not be dismissed so quickly.

expat, you are absolutely correct on this I think that what is evident with regards to the free energy issue is that many are not up-to-date with physics. New discoveries are happening all the time and yet people still hold to the old ideas they learned a long time ago.

reply to post by defcon5

Hey D.
I think you have a good point here however.

There are far fewer real conspiracies out there then folks here would have you think.

There was a thread about how much of the info on ATS people thought was true.
Most of the answers were very low, I thought.
I actually think about half the stuff here has 'some basis' in truth to it.
As we have found researching these theories, not much is cut and dry though. We may just be an overly paranoid lot!
After all, Spock (mr. logical) said we are a primitive and paranoid society!
Makes you wonder anyway.

As Watcherintheshadows said on another thread, it is a grey area!

Is it time for ATS to create a "huggles" forum so that all who are vexed can keep gracing us with all these "sharing my sad feelingz" threadz?

I think it is!

reply to post by shayanmh


Since you were not clear on who you are referring to I’ll put in my two cents on this. ATS has not always been about Conspiracy Theories or Aliens, as expat2368 said. I joined because at the time I was interested in the more religious topics, which were more prevalent back then. Since those days some of the other topics have become more prevalent, while others have dwindled to a trickle. Each person is here because of their individual beliefs, interests, knowledge, and background, if we all agreed on everything it would be a very boring site. As you mention the “Old Days” of ATS, you should realize that ATS actually began as more of a skeptic site that stood in contrast to wacko CT sites such as GLP due to our ability to sniff out BS frauds and hoaxes. Why do you think that one of the owners goes by the handle of SkepticOverlord…

Originally posted by expat2368
I keep seeing these posts that this site is about CONSPIRACY. Well the name of the site is Above Top Secret not Conspiracy Theory. I see lots of threads on here that have nothing to do with a conspiracy. It really gets old when I see people jump into a thread that obviously has nothing to do with conspiracy, it could be a discussion about anything and we get these "where is the conspiracy?' posts and a lot of ranting by people who apparently would be happy to argue with the wall for the sake of argument. Also the dimwits who simply declare that their opinion is God's honest truth and no need for any more discussion..move along next victim please. Would be nice to see a few more manners if that is possible these days.

With regards to my comment about conspiracy, you are correct. This site is about conspiracy and other alternative, non-mainstream topics. With regards to the places that I've usually gone to discuss, they usually had some conspiracy component, so my assessments center mainly on those topics that are in the conspiracy category. If the same thing happens in other categories, I really don't know.

reply to post by schrodingers dog

Is it time for ATS to create a "huggles" forum so that all who are vexed can keep gracing us with all these "sharing my sad feelingz" threadz?

I agree with you.
too much new thread about what ?
new thread should be blocked by ATS before publishing

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Is it time for ATS to create a "huggles" forum so that all who are vexed can keep gracing us with all these "sharing my sad feelingz" threadz?

I think it is!

Yes, I agree, and perhaps since you have quite a few threads where you vent your vexations and sad feelings, may I suggest that you be the mod on that forum

The "be the change you wish to see" mantra is surely a virtuous one ... but it really only works if it is applied literally and figuratively across the board. Now I did a quick count and there's almost 70 of you who are mods and above. Each became that for all the above mentioned reasons and more ... let's say out of the 70, half of staff is "dormant" in any given time frame. That leaves over 30 active staff members on any given month. If each of you vowed to do just 1 thread a month, just 1, we would have at least 30 ADDITIONAL high quality threads a month ... averaging to 1 a day. I mean look at the thread TheRedneck just authored just a few days ago. THAT is a mf thread!

You make me proud the way you took such careful stock of how the mods are performing and laid it all out... superb job

Real shame about TheRedneck pilfering your thread! Makes my rant seem quite small compared to yours!

reply to post by downisreallyup


What on earth are you talking about?

How does a thread encouraging members who are excellent enough to become moderators to contribute more compare with a thread about you whining that we should prove to you that aliens don't exist?

Real shame about TheRedneck pilfering your thread! Makes my rant seem quite small compared to yours!

Oh and not for nothing, but TheRedneck didn't post on that thread.

Sheesh.

[edit on 19 Dec 2009 by schrodingers dog]

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Quite simply, my thread is not about anything other than encouraging those members who like to do the tactics I described to stop doing it, and to start discussing things so that they actually move the thread along. If a person doesn't have something useful to say in the thread, perhaps they shouldn't go into it. After all, if they only POP in to register their crass little comment, I don't see how that helps anyone, and only serves to bolster the arrogance of the one who did it.

And by the way, the aliens comment in my thread was only BY WAY OF EXAMPLE, and I do think the context made that clear.

I only go into the threads that are about topics that interest me and that I think I can make a contribution to. Is that why you came into this thread? To make a contribution or to throw a stone? I looked at your threads, and I see you were also complaining in some of yours. Like a guy said to me above... don't take everything so personal...sheeeesh!


[edit on 19-12-2009 by downisreallyup]

reply to post by downisreallyup


wall of whining text post.

here's an idea, don't post hoaxes, do some actual research with actual scientific data, and not made up math systems, and hmm.. oh i don't know.. man up a bit and learn to accept criticism might help too. long story short, its not disinfo agents, or anything of the sort.. your posts and theories are just crap.