It is very frustrating to try and intelligently discuss a matter when a thread is hijacked and derailed by people who have no desire for truth. It is really unbelievable how people behave here at times, when I'm sure they would never get away with such tactics in their jobs... or maybe they do

I am referring to the various tactics that I have seen employed here on ATS that are clearly either intentional disinfo and deflection, or extreme cases of impaired mental processes.

Here are some of the tactics I am referring to:

1) If a topic dealing with Zero-Point Energy is introduced, there emerges a raft of people who spring forth claiming "impossible", or "hoax", when they have not introduced one shred of proof that it is a hoax. And no matter what points you bring up to try and convince them, they do not come back with counter-ARGUMENTS, they come back with more epithets of derision. This is highly suspicious of a prejudiced agenda of disinformation, and here is why:

A) If the subject was really a hoax, why are they so enthusiastic about saying so? Why are they so passionate about resisting it with chanted mantras of "hoax", and not with one shred of evidence? Why are they so driven to keep man bound in the current shackles of current understanding? They are clearly afraid of something, but what? What is motivating them, if not some agenda to dissuade others from pursuing the truth in the matter?

B) If they really had any solid arguments against the supposed hoax, why do they not present them? Why do they not make a solid case to support their accusations? Why do they commit such slander against others, not providing one shred of evidence to their claims? They say things like "if that were me, I would do it this way, and because they are not doing it that way, it must be a hoax!" and other types of nonsensical circular-reasoning and flawed logic.

C) If they are truly just trying to defend a position that they believe to be true, why are they not willing to have their claims cross-examined? Are they really that unskilled in debate? Everyone knows that in a courtroom the prosecutor starts off with the premise that the defendant is guilty, while the defender starts off with a presumed innocence. Then each argues from their prejudiced point-of-view. The lawyers are not seeking truth... they are trying to convince an impartial jury of their position, and it it the jury's job to find the truth. Are we not supposed to be like the JURY? Anyone who behaves like a lawyer must have some agenda other than truth, in which case we must then ask, who is paying the retainer fee?

2) Another tactic often seen is to misdirect the arguments so they focus on things that really don't matter, and are not germane to the point at hand. For example, if a particular scientist has some trumped up accusations against him, this is brought forward as proof that the original point is wrong. It is used in court also... destroy the credibility of the witness. The problem with this technique is that it is no guarantee that the witness is lying or wrong. And if you bring up that the scientist was framed or unjustly maligned, that is laughed at as ridiculous! Here, on a conspiracy site, the idea of unjust slander is laughed at!

3) Another tactic is to do smorgasbord responses, which is especially frustrating. Basically, they are doing what the MSM does... misquote or selectively quote in order to give a different perspective than what was meant. If you say "the scientist was wrong about that particular item, but then in subsequent tests, he found his error and corrected it...", the disinfo responder will just quote the first part "the scientist was wrong... he found his error...", and then they will say "See, you even admitted he was wrong!" This is just such blatant manipulation and deception!

These are just a few tactics that come to mind immediately, but there are many more that I have witnessed first hand.

My question is, WHY ARE THEY DOING IT? In one case that happened recently, there was a real attempt at trying to discuss the science behind ZPE energy systems, and there were some that just refused to discuss with intelligence. No matter what was said or presented, they kept repeating their mantras of disinfo and deflection. I had a hard time believing they were actually that stupid or thick, so my only conclusion was that they must be doing this intentionally with some malicious agenda in mind.

I fully agree that people should be able to voice their intelligent rebuttals and that intelligent skepticism is healthy and necessary to finding truth. What is NOT HELPFUL, however, and actually COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE is blind and ignorant rejection, masquerading as skepticism.

If you say "aliens exist" and I say "no they don't", it then becomes necessary for each of us to present objective evidence either for or against, if indeed any kind of progress is to be achieved. Even opinions should be informed and based on something other than pure biased conjecture, for what value does that really hold? If we are not here to learn and progress, that what is ATS really all about?

After all, what is the process for denying ignorance? Perhaps there should be some "rules of engagement" that help to foster meaningful debate and help to neutralize the disinfo "agents" and daft-brained thread derailleurs.

I agree but have no answers except that I believe most of those you describe only read the title thread make up their mind immediately and begin posting.Last week I started a thread from an article in the World Weekly News as a joke(and to prove a point ) and it took 18 post before someone mentioned it was a poor source and the S.O. deleted it.Goes with the territory.
I have been called everything here from racist to troll to genius by people who don't know me or my motivations pretty presumptuous on their part.But like I tell any newbie I respond to in an introduction "around here you better have a thick skin".

[edit on 18-12-2009 by genius/idoit]

Oh, and in case anybody thinks I am dissing ATS, think again. I love ATS and the mental stimulation in can provide at times. That is really why I wrote this thread. I am hoping that some people will take a look at this issue and take it to heart because I'd love to see the quality of thread discussions be raised. There are SO MANY important issues facing us all these days that it would be a shame that they not get dealt with because some people with negative agendas derailed the attempts.

Please, can we discuss this matter, and especially possible ways to remedy it.

In my frustration over this problem I've even had the thought of launching a new website that enforced solid debating behaviors for the betterment and quality of discussions. I can think of many ways for a website to make the quality of discussion better, but in the end it would take a lot of work and it would likely never match ATS is number of people. But perhaps it is not the number of people that come to website that really matters, but instead, it is the number of quality people who provide meaningful and helpful contribution that really matters. Besides, it's usually a lot easier to fix the existing wheel than it is to reinvent a new one.

Oh, here's THIS thread again.

seriously, i think everyone gets the point by now. this is the, what, 1,000,000,000,000th thread on this?

[edit on 18-12-2009 by LocoHombre]

I've noticed alot more "WTF" coming up in those same kinds of posts you mention.

It may not actually be SAYING "WTF" outright,but that's what registers in our minds.

Never a good sign of intelligence if people resort to foul language,in my opinion.

(I'm guilty of swearing myself,don't get me wrong! It's just that I don't see what it contributes to intelligent discourse in a forum like this.)

Also,I see there are many clever spellings for the "F" word that are used quite liberally!

When I see threads disintegrate into the kind described,I tend to bow out,because I find the company offensive.

I don't expect it to change either. The "IGNORE" button is a handy option for what I deem "repeat offenders"! The board must have figured it would come in handy sometimes,or it wouldn't be there! (Thank you,ATS!)

Originally posted by downisreallyup

If you say "aliens exist" and I say "no they don't", it then becomes necessary for each of us to present objective evidence either for or against, if indeed any kind of progress is to be achieved.

Incorrect, it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist. If someone claims that a thing does exist, he must then offer proof supporting that contention. Those arguing that something doesn't exist, or is unlikely to exist, are only responsible for evaluating and responding to the evidence provided by those arguing that a thing does exist.

It seems to me that much of your "issue" has to do with a basic misunderstanding, or possibly even ignorance, of the structure of logic and reason.