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Chavez brings the house down in Copenhagen

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posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi

I suggest you learn the definitions of the political ideologies you oppose and use to erroneously justify your logically inferior arguments and study a bit of actual world history before you respond to any more posts in this thread. Your flawed logic has gotten you nowhere.



YEAH OK...


I'll run right out and do that.




posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 12:58 AM
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How pathetically misinformed so many are in the West, agreeing with the socialist dictator that capitalism must go. I fear greatly for our future. Any system that aggregates more power into the hands of fewer people is to be hated and feared ; and that my friends is why socialism is rotten to the core. It makes the flawed assumption that a few utopian idealists holding the incredible power of the wealth of nations will make a better place for us to live in. Wrong wrong and wrong again.

Look at the exemplars of socialism that we have, Stalin killed 70 million, Mao 90 million, Pol Pot and Kim Il Sung and Castro millions more. Chavez who admires Castro would be killing a lot more if he could only have more power. Obama would love to have the same power as Kim Il Sung.

Capitalism on the other hand let's the people decide who wins and who loses. If someone makes a cheaper or better mousetrap, they win and the people win. Competition is good. It's when you create monopolies, often government enforced, that you create inequities The US healthcare system, run by big-pharma is a good example. The worst monopoly of them all is the socialist government. You can't just stop buying their product, they give you no other choices. So you get inferior goods and services that are forced fed to you by the full power of the government and their police apparatus. The Obama health care scheme will force big-pharma care at their dictated prices to the masses. Just wait and see what socialism can do to, I mean 'for' you.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 01:02 AM
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I lived in Venezuela for a few years. One of the most beautiful places in the world, People are great, unfortunately the culture is lacking with abysmal standards of education. They're not stupid by any means, but terribly ignorant.

Chavez is very Venezolano. Barrio street smarts but unsubtle and unsophisticated. Not a good statesman or even leader of his own people.

He's picked up the Castro rhetoric of the Evils of Capitalism. But let's not forget he's a guy holding the purse strings of billions of dollars in oil revenues.
So suddenly he is one of the most important people in the world. And he's quickly learned to enjoy control, power, attention, vanity.

His policies are more directed to satisfy his own ego rather than the needs of his people. A common ailment among world leaders. Chavez has been conditioned. Drop a few buzzwords and platitudes in a speech and people light up, the world press is abuzz, internet forums analyze his every word

Where he do concentrate on domestic reforms and help the rest of Latin America get on track with changes that would make it possible for tens of millions to eat regularly and enjoy a better quality of life - he would be the saviour he likes to think he is. Instead he chooses a path of personal glorification, the Enemy of Capitalism, just as his mentor Castro did.

The world need good leaders not vainglorious warriors. The enemy Chavez thinks he's opposing is not really Capitalism, a means of production and wealth distribution. The enemy is corruption, of governments and of the soul. Chavez may have been a sincere idealistic person at one time. He is just another person in a position of authority who loves attention and power, using it to play games for his personal satisfaction rather than the benefit of the people who put him where he is.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 01:49 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Yes he does, but you are forgetting what our nation does around the world in the name of freedom, the two wars we are fighting base under that same assumption, if you look at that then we are not better than Chavez, at least he has not invaded the middle east yet.

But what is going in our nation is can not be denied, capitalism in America is only benefiting the few.



Only benefiting the few? Have you seen world poverty? US poverty is like being king in other places and you think we have it so bad here.

A broken clock may be right 2 times a day but that doesn't mean its not broken. Just because chavez can say 1 or 2 things that sound ok doesn't make him a good person or one that does good things for his country.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 03:12 AM
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Originally posted by cenpuppie
It's funny how the American media will brand someone as "dangerous" when they don't agree with American Greed Policy.


No, it isn't. He's not dangerous for disagreeing with our system. He's dangerous for buying billions in modern Russian weapons that WILL eventually be turned on his neighbors and even worse, his own people.

He is already preparing for war with Colombia :

news.bbc.co.uk...


He moved 15,000 more troops up to the border, accusing Colombia and its ally, the US, of planning an attack. Since Venezuelans were told by Mr Chavez to prepare for war and the Venezuelan army starting blowing up bridges that link the two nations, Colombia has been overhauling its defence strategy.


We have seen this same thing over and over in history, and no doubt the outcome will be the same. The U.S. will eventually have to be drawn into a conflict much later than we should. And people will look down upon us while accusing of us of not doing anything sooner to keep atrocities from happening.

Remember to check back on this thread when the above actually happens. I hate to say I told you so, but I will.


You go Chavez, more power to you.



Yah, you go Chavez alright, you go to hell.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 04:06 AM
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Originally posted by SevenThunders
How pathetically misinformed so many are in the West, agreeing with the socialist dictator that capitalism must go. I fear greatly for our future. Any system that aggregates more power into the hands of fewer people is to be hated and feared ; and that my friends is why socialism is rotten to the core. It makes the flawed assumption that a few utopian idealists holding the incredible power of the wealth of nations will make a better place for us to live in. Wrong wrong and wrong again.

Look at the exemplars of socialism that we have, Stalin killed 70 million, Mao 90 million, Pol Pot and Kim Il Sung and Castro millions more. Chavez who admires Castro would be killing a lot more if he could only have more power. Obama would love to have the same power as Kim Il Sung.


I don't think you spent much time studying Socialism my friend, you make no distinction between Socialism and Communism.
Das Kaptial may be a bitch to read, but Marx was an excellent thinker and critic of his contemporary society. Many of his theories are valid.

Stalin, Mao and Kim Il Sung had their own twisted versions of Communism, their totalitarian dictatorships are no more representative for Communism or Socialism than Ben-Laden is for Islam, or the Pope of all Christians. More than anything, they are representatives of their own epoch, a time when extreme political ideas created a lot of turmoil and grief.
Marx perceived Capitalism as a system that would not lie down and die without a fight, therefore he imagined the struggle against it as militaristic and revolutionary, until the 'final battle' had been won.
But it doesn't have to be like that.
The Scandinavian countries chose a middle way between socialism and capitalism. In Social Democracy, a strong state coach the Capitalist market, tax it heavily and use the wealth to create a regulated society of solidarity. It might not sound very sexy, but it works. These countries ALWAYS integrate the top ten nations in studies on economic wealth, life quality and general happiness, educational, technological and infra-structure issues etc, while purely Capitalist countries tend to end up further down in the ranking.

Remember, in a society where it's each man on his own, kids pay for their own food and education. There's no reason why they should piggy-back their parents.

Capitalism at its best is a system of commercial enterprises competing with each other for market shares, on equal terms. The dynamic in the system is that everybody tries to take control but nobody makes it.
Capitalism at its worst is a place where some industrials and organizations have become so economically powerful that they infiltrate everything and take control of all the institutions in society. They create a totalitarian class-society in the sense that they make their own law to maintain their hegemony, and keep counter-power organizations, new ideas and concepts down.

Another problem with Capitalism is its shortsightedness in terms of profit and investments for the future.
We are right now over-exploiting the natural resources of this planet, every data we have at hand confirms it. We also pollute our environment to the extent that it's getting out of hand. Which means we're bad managers, because we're not running the store properly.

Let's look at what Capitalism has done in the last 30 years or so. It has invested heavily in a totalitarian Chinese dictatorship with no respect whatsoever for human rights (Capitalism isn't very picky with its bed fellows), not out of concern for the Chinese people, but in order to attain a huge market in order to sell them anything from toothpaste to trucks. The result of this - apart from profit - is a China still contemptuous of democratic or republican values, but now the biggest polluter on the planet - together with the US - and claims its 'right' to further industrial expansion, which shoots up the Copenhagen summit.

Compare it to increasing the profit by letting more and more passengers on the boat, until it gets so heavy it sinks.

It's called bad management.


[edit on 20-12-2009 by Heliocentric]



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 05:34 AM
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Originally posted by SuperSecretSquirrel
Ignorant bastards.

I find it appalling how Capitalism and become synonymous with Corporatism.

Corporatism= What you get when the government is largely influenced by the corporate world.

Capitalism= An economic theory which relies on free markets.

PLEASE! Demonize corporatism all you can but leave my poor capitalism alone.



Couldn't have said it better myself... well put, correct and true.

We ourselves in this country have become victims of Corporatism it's like watching a bad sci fi movie.

But saying that Capitalism is to Blame is completely missing the reality.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 06:43 AM
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This thread has some interesting points, but much of it is rather (er) misinformed.

For all you Chavez lovers, who think he is some kind of "nice guy" you need to consider whether you would move to his country, because I suspect most of you would rather stay where you are.

Venezuela Human Rights 1
Venezuela Human Rights 2
Venezuela British FCO Travel Advice

The misused term "facisim"... I think that anyone who wants to mark someone else as an extremist calls them a facist, which is a misuse of the term. In point of fact, Chavez's nationalism has a greater facist slant than some people seem capable of admitting, as is the de facto one-party-state he seems to be creating. Capitalism is not linked to facism other than being in opposition, so those who seem to think capitalism leads to fasism are wrong. Methinks some people need to get a dictionary.

Regards




[edit on 20/12/2009 by paraphi]



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by donhuangenaro
with only two bombs in Japan more than 500 000 people died, I will not add other millions that your democracy killed in the name of imaginary freedom (read: profit)...


Hey, Gus, you might want to crack a book or two. Do you think that the US just woke up one day and said, "Hey, let's drop an atomic bomb on Japan! They haven't done anything to anyone and will least suspect it!"


Something was going on at that period of time called World War Two.

And for the communist form of government being so great, how come they were having vodka riots in Russia at one time?



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by donhuangenaro
with only two bombs in Japan more than 500 000 people died, I will not add other millions that your democracy killed in the name of imaginary freedom (read: profit)...


Hey, Gus, you might want to crack a book or two. Do you think that the US just woke up one day and said, "Hey, let's drop an atomic bomb on Japan! They haven't done anything to anyone and will least suspect it!"




People run around with their heads in holes in the ground.


Just one incident out of many

The Nanking Massacre or Nanjing Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking, refers to a six-week period following the Japanese capture of the city of Nanjing (Nanking), former capital of the Republic of China, on December 9, 1937. During this period, hundreds of thousands of civilians were murdered and 20,000-80,000 women were raped


[edit on 20-12-2009 by SLAYER69]



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


It is quite obvious you truly did and made your response a highly intelligent and articulate one.

Good job.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 03:54 PM
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It bothers me people keep pointing out to US style corporatism. Dont you think Chavez has his own way of conducting corporatism? In his dictatorship trying to keep socialism alive.Eventually he will fail, and his paranoid state will make him fall. WHat bothers me most is him repeatedly talking about US invading his country using the Antilles and claiming those islands belong to him. One day he might face the armies of Columbia, Netherlands and US, i cant wait to see the face of this lunatic when that happens..



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by Foppezao
 


I have not once claimed Chavez is good or right. Government and big business go hand in hand. He is just as bad as anyone else.

But the problem is people in this country have been so indoctrinated to the belief that the "free market" and capitalism is the best way to go that there is no telling them otherwise. "Communism" is just a bad word that no one knows the meaning of.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
OK... Now we understand whats with all the rhetoric.

Despite the hyperbole bandied online, strong political opinions won’t get your door kicked in at 3 AM like in the Gulag Archipelago. There are no Stalinist purges or killing fields here. And the FBI/CIA/ATF/DEA/PTA will not shoot you on sight simply because you speak against The Surge or march against the Economic Stimulus Plan.

But it’s certainly fun to claim a fear of it! You become an instant radical and feel intellectually enlightened to boot– patriotism is an uncritical, reflexive act, right?– only a deep thinker would hate his country (yet stay on to enjoy its privileges). And don’t worry about proof, because all that matters is the accusation.

Volume and conviction win the day, so toss that bibliography—grab half the story and make the rest up. If you get caught in a logic box, claim satire. Other countries see this lack of consequences and pile on.


Political stereotyping...

Hitler was a national socialist who killed millions of jews and gypsies, invaded europe and africa so lets it use him as an excuse to paint socialism as evil, despite the fact socialism comes in many forms and despite the fact for every 10 socialist leaders, 9 turn out to be great.

Stalin was a national communist and killed millions of russians during his paranoid rule. Anyone suspected of not being loyal to him was sent to siberia to work camps or killed. Great! What about all the other communist leaders that followed him? Did they follow his example? No!

By the way *NATIONAL* anything denotes imperialistic motives. America could be called a national capitalist country, but since corporatism plays an important part, we should call it national corporatism. Corporatism is a significant subset of capitalism!

If obama wakes up one day and decides he's had enough of "white supremacy" and has a significant following within the government, then who would stop him from committing genocide?
You might say, well we got constitutional restraints that won't allow such terrible things to ever happen.... BS!!! America is decaying very fast, martial law could be inacted at a moments notice and then everything would change.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Hitler was a national socialist who killed millions of jews and gypsies, invaded europe and africa so lets it use him as an excuse to paint socialism as evil, despite the fact socialism comes in many forms and despite the fact for every 10 socialist leaders, 9 turn out to be great.


Whilst I agree that the term socailist is often misused and it comes in a variety of colours, I am curious to understand from you which ones have had (or have) "great" leaders. Can you assure us that these great leaders have led led countries which have been open and transparent and where the population has not been subjected to the kinds of human abuses which are widely known.

Put simply, how many of us who live in democracies (however flawed) would like to go live in a country ruled by one of these socialist strongmen (for thay are all men).

I for the life of me cannot think of one socialist leader I would share my dinner with.

Regards



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by plumranch
 


I think oil may be a secondary reason for the invasion of afghanistan.

The primary reason appears to be maintaining a high level of opium production and controlling it's use. Refining it into heroin and for pharmaceutical purposes.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by paraphi
Whilst I agree that the term socailist is often misused and it comes in a variety of colours, I am curious to understand from you which ones have had (or have) "great" leaders. Can you assure us that these great leaders have led led countries which have been open and transparent and where the population has not been subjected to the kinds of human abuses which are widely known.

Put simply, how many of us who live in democracies (however flawed) would like to go live in a country ruled by one of these socialist strongmen (for thay are all men).

I for the life of me cannot think of one socialist leader I would share my dinner with.

Regards


I am curious as why you use the term *strongmen*? When I say socialism do you immediately think of stalin or hitler? Be honest now..


Also can you please tell me what political system europe had 2-3 decades ago because I am "confused". Was is it socialism or capitalism? Then explain why...

What about canada before and now? Please explain why...

Was russia and germany, pre-ww2 both socialistic? Is socialism and communism the same? If no, how do they differ?

I am waiting for you to complete my quiz...

[edit on 20-12-2009 by EarthCitizen07]



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by mikelee
Chavez continues to rattle his pitchfork just to get some publicity and talk trash whenever he can. The real story about this fool contradicts not only his buffonary but his rhetoric as well.


Chavez's socialism is as much about perpetuating his dictatorship over Venezuela and expanding his influence in Latin America as it is improving the lot of the poor (and if you can name a system on this Earth under which more people have been lifted out of poverty than free-market democracy, I'm all ears). It's especially ironic that Chavez would berate free-market nations for causing catastrophic climate change when he helps fund his own Bolivarian Revolution by selling his country's oil and natural gas to the United States.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
reply to post by Foppezao
 


I have not once claimed Chavez is good or right. Government and big business go hand in hand. He is just as bad as anyone else.

But the problem is people in this country have been so indoctrinated to the belief that the "free market" and capitalism is the best way to go that there is no telling them otherwise. "Communism" is just a bad word that no one knows the meaning of.


I think the problem in the US and most of the world is that they forget capitalism should have downswings. People thought after Volcker raised interest rate in the 80's to 15% that after that[when the rate dropped again] house prices would not fall again and could keep rising, and use their real estate as security for bad investments, whole models where made without the possibility that house prices would go down..besides the US should have let the credit bubble go flat instead of pumping more and more "air" into it..Capitalism has worked for centuries, it seemed we forgot how markets should work..
Anyway Chavez is an idiot for hyjacking this summit for bashing the US, would've been nice to see some input about sustainable development..

[edit on 20-12-2009 by Foppezao]



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by prof-rabbit
Well consider it's a drop in the ocean to the spending by the US on military hardware and a second drop on the amount given to Israel gratis in terms of weapons. Chavez is spending their oil revenue (or part thereof) on military upgrades.


To be honest, who does Chavez need to fear and defend against, and the same goes for Iran? Both are fear mongers that create their own bad guys to fuel their extreme agendas. Both countries could put all their military efforts into productive projects to build great nations without any enemies if they choose to do so, but both countries would love to grow and gobble up a few neighbors around them.



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