Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Mike Bellone's shocking claim on "Conspiracy Theory"

page: 3
38
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join

posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 01:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by Hephaestus
reply to post by MysterE
 


In the case of the London tube bombings. there was also a simulated terrorist attack drill running at the time of the actual "attacks" which caused much confusion amongst the emergency services here. Another strange coincidence??

[edit on 18-12-2009 by Hephaestus]


Believe this, as you obviously dearly want to. But, fact is it was a paper exercise involving 6 or 7 people in a room with zero connection to the emergency services.




posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 02:17 PM
link   
reply to post by Nola213
 


The majority of your post is chock full of the same tired old recycled claims that pop up on the CT websites...same old, same old.

The veracity of this 'Mike Bellone' character is the point, here. He has no credibility. Former Gov. Ventura, now, after putting his foot in it, even less. Jesse likely has gotten swept up and stimulated by the same foolish CT websites that so many others have...Bellone, though? His 15 minutes of fame expired some years ago, and he wants a renewal.

First, as pointed out in the OTHER ATS thread on this topic, IE, 'Was American 11 hijacked before takeoff?" the answer is an unequivocal 'NO'!

As mentioned, the man had NO actual sources to be privy to such a claim, and in any event, from my experience and understanding of the workings of the airline industry there is absolutely no way that scenario of a "hijack before takeoff" would ever occur. It is ludicrous. There isn't a pilot in the world, then, or now, that would have acceded to such a situation.

Now, for Nola again...this is on topic, since it was mentioned in the OP...the flight recorders. And, this comment:


Maybe they should start making these boxes out of passport paper, there's an idea.


That (failed) attempt at humor, or derision, appears to be a reference to the fact that a passport was found, having been ejected from the chaos of the crash of one of the jets into a Tower.

What is so hard for people to understand about the realities of the incredible, odd occurrences that are involved in these destructive events???

Only people that either spent their entire lives in a cave (no one here, obviously) or willfully wish to ignore other bizarre and strange things that happen just about every time there is a violent accident seem to find it hard to understand how small, lightweight items can survive even the intentional plane crashes seen on 9/11.

Hint: There were OTHER things that survived too...personal effects of passengers and crew...such as an ATM card, for example. Lightweight, paper or plastic, some fragmented, some virtually unscathed. It happens!!!

Seat cushions. There's another example! How many people, looking back on just about EVERY airplane crash on record, haven't seen at least one seat cushion in the aftermath? Why do you think a seat cushion, a few square feet in area, and three inches thick, could come out of an accident intact, but a small passport or credit card can't???

Shoes.

Eyeglasses,

Whatever, small, light weight. Not everything, of course, will survive, but out of all the little bits that are on board, pure chance dictates that some might.

The Recorders, on the other hand, are large-ish, heavy and dense.

Think of a breadbox...toaster oven...small microwave, etc, to get a feel for size.

Painted bright orange, with white stripes and lettering. This Bellone character said, at first, 'yellow with black' stripes...but changed his tune once he realized (probably Googled them) what they really look like...when they are NORMAL, undamaged, unburnt, etc.

Really, anyone who just accepts a CT website's claims (or any of those who parrot their nonsense) at face value without doing more research is fooling themselves.

The general "feeling" among the laypeople is that the SSFDR and CVR are virtually indestructible. they are not. They ARE designed to withstand a great deal of impact force (you can look it up, but few do...it's published as 3,400 Gs minimum...that's a lot). They have to survive fire, although no time limit is specified. They have to survive immersion in water.

There is no requirement to survive being crushed under the weight of 500,000 tons of building debris. AFTER being subjected for nearly an hour to an intense fire. Does anyone still think that the orange paint and white stripes would still be there, after being in a hot fire for that long?

Does anyone understand the energies involved in the collapse of the buildings? Remember how high the impacts occurred. Think back to your High School physics. Key words to jog memory: Potential Energy. (Stored energy due to gravity) People think, "Oh, but they were in titanium casings!" Titanium is, contrary to popular belief, NOT some super-strong metal. It is valued for its strength-to-weight ratio (better than aluminum alloys) combined with its heat tolerance. STEEL is still much, much stronger.

The recorders could have been built like small safes, with walls inches thick, etc. BUT, that isn't practical, in an airplane, where weight is always a concern. They are designed as a compromise, a trade off between the required function, and any weight penalty...plus the cost of material that goes into building them.

The recorders were not likely to survive in the WTC crashes. Of course, as always, there was a chance that some weird thing could have happened, being protected by other larger masses of debris, as the collapse occurred...(just as some surviving people were sheltered, and crawled out or were discovered buried, but alive, in the wreckage).

But, none of the four devices were that 'lucky'.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 02:19 PM
link   
I saw a video where Maxwell urged people to watch the pilot episode of "The Loan Gunmen" (2001). The pilot episode is about a file that was hacked from the Federal Government that detailed a plan to use commercial jets as missiles to attack targets to promote the military industrial complex post Cold War. The episode culminates in a jetliner just regaining pilot control just missing the Twin Towers. Where arguments were made that a jetliner could not have it's controls remotely commendered, they forgot that there are souls willing to do this for beliefs.

Just a coincidence of course. Writing on the wall is a complete understatement. AMAZING! Months later the plan went into effect.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 02:25 PM
link   
reply to post by AnotherSon
 


Yeah....and I saw a movie where terrorists hijack Air Force One....so what?

Oh, and another movie where people are being held hostage in a large office building on Christmas Eve, and one lone defiant NYPD cop on vacation in Los Angeles saves them all....

It's called a "story". As in 'creative fiction'. It's something that writers do...they create, imagine, write...and hope it makes them a lot of money someday.

Ya know....one day soon there will be really advanced robots in everyday use, and someone, somewhen, will point to the "Terminator" and cry "Aha!! That was the plan all along!!"



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 02:29 PM
link   
Black Boxes are nearly indestructibly they are these big orange yellow striped boxes. If they can find bone fragments and match it to a person's DNA how could they miss these big boxes.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 02:35 PM
link   
reply to post by JahKinG SouLJaH
 


See?

This is what I was talking about.

Why won't people do real research, instead of just accepting the CT websites nonsense?

You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(sigh)....here, did some quick research for everyone else.

Here is an example of a recorder, after a "normal" airplane crash:



See the casing bent and damaged?? That was from an airplane built in India, a Saras PT-2. Y'all can look it up.

I seriously doubt this device was on board an airplane that was intentionally flown into a building at over 450 knots, and then had the building collapse on it. yet, it sustained quite a lot of damage...this "indestructible" device.

Yeah, right.


Here's EgyptAir 990:


]

[edit on 18 December 2009 by weedwhacker]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 02:37 PM
link   

Originally posted by Dometheus
I have heard many version of what happened that day.
Some say that they were missiles, and the planes were CGI,
others say they were planes, but not the ones they said,
or it was a missile that hit the pentagon and in Pennsylvania.

My Question is simply: Where did all the people from the Original Flights go?

Good example:
When the Pentagon Engine was investigated it was the wrong engine
Pentagon plane rotor

So if it was a different airplane all together, where did the passengers go? SO along with the people who died in NY, all the passengers may have been killed before of after the impacts....WOW could it actually be?

And now that the talk of Black Boxes is going on, I have a question, Do the Black Boxes know what type of plane they are in, and can this be modified?


Just wondering, maybe Jesse should have investigated the Engine first.


End of Line......

[edit on 18-12-2009 by Dometheus]

[edit on 18-12-2009 by Dometheus]


Dometheus

I think it has long been established that the engine parts at the Pentagon are from a Rolls Royce RB211 engine. i.e. as fitted to AA77.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 03:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by Nola213

I'd like to see you spend more than 5 minutes, cause thats about all I spent. And out of the 10's of thousands large airligner crashes, I would be suprised if more than 2 percent Both of the boxes were not recovered.

According to the FAA they are recovered 99.7% of the time. However the Black Boxes involved in the WTC attacks underwent unique stresses. Not only did they crash into a steel column building at full speed, and get engulfed in a conflagration, the building subsequently collapsed on top of them. Given all that, I don't find it all that remarkable that they weren't found. The one from the plane involved in the pentagon attack was twisted almost beyond recognition, and it went through far less stress.


Now for 4 to go unrecovered all in the same area and day, when passport miracles, and DNA miracles were a regular, I just find this to be utter nonsense. No offense to you.

Paper surviving plane crashes is actually fairly common.



Do you.., in you heart of hearts believe the 9/11 commission was done in a proper fashion , within a proper timeframe, and that it settles the matter once and for all? I hope not, and I doubt it, because you seem like an intelligent person.


I think the "OS' is pretty much accurate yes.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 03:22 PM
link   

Originally posted by Dometheus


Good example:
When the Pentagon Engine was investigated it was the wrong engine
Pentagon plane rotor



A little off topic ( but what's new
) since it's about the Pentagon, but this is par for a 9/11 thread. Still, this misinformation needs to be addressed...

Sorry, that is a BAD example. At least, for what you think.

From the site "911review." no less. Full of errors. This is a GOOD example, though, of how they cleverly distort facts, in order to support what they want you to believe.

They compare, on that page you linked, the mostly intact and crumpled engine from the Britannia airliner...the one involved in a relatively low-speed SURVIVABLE accident, BTW.

The components of the American Airlines flight 77 engines were broken APART in that crash. The comparison photos are therefore designed to fool the average viewer. They show the big first stage FAN from the Britannia (we call that the N1) and then try to have you believe that the rotor pictured in the Pentagon pictures is from some other engine...they even suggest a MILITARY jet engine...the blighters!

They conveniently don't mention what the internal components of the RB211 look like.

Here you go, a cutaway view:



Here's another:



Now....we have to be careful as well....because the majority of these conspiracy theorists are just basement web blog tinkerers, with no actual education or experience in the fields that they pontificate about.

What they, and whatmost non-aviation oriented people don't know is that the Boeing 757, and yes, the Boeing 767 too, actually have THREE jet engines installed.

Surprised?

Don't be. Let me explain. The third engine isn't seen by the public. It is mounted in the tail. It doesn't provide thrust thrust to make the airplane move through the sky --- it produces electricity and high pressure air (pneumatics) for various purposes. It is called the Auxiliary Power Unit (APU). It is a turbine engine, aka a "jet' engine. Works on the same principles as the engines that hang on the wings, just is specialized for a different purpose.

But, that hypothesis (that the debris in the photos offered on the site you linked) might be the APU are discussed here.

So, you see....that site "911review" is either willfully ignorant, or willfully deceptive, or just plain ignorant, not sure yet which.




And now that the talk of Black Boxes is going on, I have a question, Do the Black Boxes know what type of plane they are in, and can this be modified?


Yes, the recorders are specific to only one type of airframe/engine combination at a time.

No, they cannot be 'modified' if you're asking in the sense of "Can the recorded data be manipulated?"

There are hundreds, no exaggeration, of separate values being recorded simultaneously. ALL in binary code. Ones and Zeros. Stored on circuit boards...that's why the 'SS' is in front of 'FDR'...Solid State. Older Flight Data Recorders were more limited, fewer data points, and used a metal foil 'tape' moving slowly under needles that traced lines in the foil. Then, more data was recorded on units designed to use magnetic tape as a storage medium. As in, also, Cockpit Voice Recorders, which for years used just a continuous loop strip of magnetic tape, like in the old 8-track cartridges. It usually had to only record four 'tracks' of audio. More advanced units now are also solid state. No moving parts. Like a digital recorder...well, that's what they are, essentially.


Well, you don't have to take my word for any of this, do some research for yourself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Took me all of about three minutes (and that was with an interruption) to find this. Just one of no doubt many resources out there, of normal, everyday aviation stuff.

www.asc.gov.tw...






[edit on 18 December 2009 by weedwhacker]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 06:07 PM
link   
reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Very disingenious argument for the survivability of the black boxes weedwacker.

"There is no requirement to survive being crushed under the weight of 500,000 tons of building debris."

With this argument you're assuming that the 4 boxes were stacked on top of each other and that the entire weight of the 2 buildings was on top of them. Not true. Considering the size of the boxes and the area over which the debris was scattered, you'd be a lot closer if you were to say 100 tons on top of each box.
Black boxes are designed to withstand pressure of over 4 tons...per sq. in.!


"The recorders were not likely to survive in the WTC crashes."

Huh? please post your links where the FAA or NTSB said this directly after the incidents. Or is that just your opinion?

"They have to survive fire, although no time limit is specified."

Boxes are designed to survive temps of 2000 degrees for 30 minutes and to survive in smouldering wreckage for up to 10 hours in temps of 500 degrees.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 06:23 PM
link   
I have heard Mike Bellone's half truths and distorted rhetoric before. I really believe he is less than honorable.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 07:06 PM
link   
reply to post by RRokkyy
 


Your attempt to use the Socratic Method is amateurish, at best.




Why did they make building one fall into its own footprint? Why not make building one fall into building two? Why put explosive in building 2 if you could just topple building 1 into it? Why blow up building 7? Why wait until almost everyone left the building? Why bother using airplanes? Why take down building 2? Why use 4 planes instead of just one?


The questions that you have proposed are completely unrelated and a distraction from the truth.

Riddle me this Batman:

How can jet fuel both explode and then burn for thirty minutes?
Jet fuel has a flame point (the temperature at which it catches fire) of 100 degrees and a fire point (the temperature at which it will continue to produce fumes for ignition) of 110 degrees. If the initial explosion was from the fuel inside the tanks then no fuel would have been left to burn.
Not only is the fire point is too low, but it completely violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The official storyline is not just improbable, but it is physically impossible according to the law of physics.

And if someone actually thinks that they can prove me wrong then reproduce what is supposed to have happened with the fuel tanks.

Show me ONE TIME when this has been repeated.

That is how to use the Socratic Method son.

[edit on 18-12-2009 by Josephus23]

[edit on 18-12-2009 by Josephus23]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 07:15 PM
link   
reply to post by mikelee
 





I have heard Mike Bellone's half truths and distorted rhetoric before. I really believe he is less than honorable.


Could you provide some evidence for your belief concerning this guy other than your pitiful anecdotal ad hominem attack which relies heavily on....
distorted rhetoric .

Please do so, because I am totally over the pseudo-skeptics using pseudo-science and logical fallacies to distract attention away from the truth.

The TRUTH is that we need a new and impartial investigation.

I am not saying that the government did it, but what I am saying is that, at best, they are grossly negligent, and at worst it is treason.

If you want to challenge me, then use science, logic and reason.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 07:24 PM
link   
reply to post by The Baby Seal Club
 



Very disingenious argument for the survivability of the black boxes weedwacker.


I total agree.



"The recorders were not likely to survive in the WTC crashes."

Huh? please post your links where the FAA or NTSB said this directly after the incidents. Or is that just your opinion?


I hope you are not expecting an answer to weeds opinion. The OS believers are now making up more stories trying to convince us of the OS lie. Now, they are burying themselves in a deeper pit of lies, and now we have to put on boots to wade through their nonsense.

I watched a documentary a while back on the history channel about how the black boxes were made and what testing was done on the materials to make these black boxes indestructible. Weed is understating, and minimized what these black boxes can handle.


How airplane black boxes survive crashes


www.wonderquest.com...



[edit on 18-12-2009 by impressme]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 08:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by Doglord

According to the FAA they are recovered 99.7% of the time. However the Black Boxes involved in the WTC attacks underwent unique stresses. Not only did they crash into a steel column building at full speed, and get engulfed in a conflagration, the building subsequently collapsed on top of them. Given all that, I don't find it all that remarkable that they weren't found. The one from the plane involved in the pentagon attack was twisted almost beyond recognition, and it went through far less stress.



I love reading this over and over. The black boxes slammed into a building and then were crushed by said building so of course you did not find them. The DNA however got out of the plane and avoided the impact and then got on the roof and rode the top of the building all the way down.


Please, oh please go on describing how conditions were just soooooo bad that the black boxes could never be recovered but all the DNA that was riding along with those black boxes survived just fine. In fact, a passport decided to get out of the plane and jump to the street before impact just to avoid that fate.


[edit on 12/18/09 by Lillydale]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 08:53 PM
link   
reply to post by Lillydale
 


Not only that, but the passport that somehow floated out of the plane in perfect condition was from a highjacker that was both not on the flight list and not seen boarding the plane.

Not one of the supposed highjackers are on video boarding the plane or on the flight lists.
NOT ONE.

So regarding the passport, how in the world did the government know so quickly who "highjacked" the plane?
Maybe that passport was just from a guy who happened to be in NY at the time of the implosions.
I mean, he wasn't seen boarding the plane and he wasn't on the passenger list.

Oh let me guess. We knew quickly because we are America and we have the "best intelligence".

Then why didn't the "best intelligence" stop the highjackers?!?!?!?!?!?!

Oh... I got an even better one.

The Pentagon. Did you know that the plane that "hit the Pentagon" was "vaporized" upon impact.
Really.
That is the "official storyline"
The plane was vaporized, BUT NOT THE DNA OF THE PASSENGERS.

Did the 911 commission really think that they could get away with this?

I am really waiting for some troll to come along and challenge me on 911 because I am completely sick of the lies, half-truths and pseudo-science.




posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 09:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by weedwhacker


Hint: There were OTHER things that survived too...personal effects of passengers and crew...such as an ATM card, for example. Lightweight, paper or plastic, some fragmented, some virtually unscathed. It happens!!!

Seat cushions. There's another example! How many people, looking back on just about EVERY airplane crash on record, haven't seen at least one seat cushion in the aftermath? Why do you think a seat cushion, a few square feet in area, and three inches thick, could come out of an accident intact, but a small passport or credit card can't???

Shoes.

Eyeglasses,

Whatever, small, light weight. Not everything, of course, will survive, but out of all the little bits that are on board, pure chance dictates that some might.



You would think with all these little wonders

That a entire Tail Section and 2 Entire wings at the Pentagon would have

survived disappearing in a 16 foot hole, things that make you go HMM




[edit on 18-12-2009 by Sean48]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 09:11 PM
link   

Originally posted by Lillydale


I love reading this over and over. The black boxes slammed into a building and then were crushed by said building so of course you did not find them. The DNA however got out of the plane and avoided the impact and then got on the roof and rode the top of the building all the way down.


A) Body parts and other organic material wouldn't be confused with a steel girder, filing cabinet, etc. The vast majority of wreckage at the WTC was twisted metal. Which is probably one of the reasons the black boxes where never found.
B) Smaller, lighter pieces of organic matter could have floated down on the wind, etc
C) Human bone has 40 times the compressive strength of concrete.
D) The black boxes would have been secured to the plane itself, while the humans were not, meaning there was a greater chance of organic elements being thrown clear.
E) Dogs can easily find even tiny amounts of human material through smell, they can not find the "black boxes" in the same way.



Please, oh please go on describing how conditions were just soooooo bad that the black boxes could never be recovered but all the DNA that was riding along with those black boxes survived just fine.

All? Try a tiny amount. However not much is needed in order to extract DNA.
However keep in mind that as the black boxes where made of steel, and quite dense, they would have hit any columns walls, etc, with more force than a human body, plus they would have impacted the ground or debris they landed on after the buildings collapse with more force.



In fact, a passport decided to get out of the plane and jump to the street before impact just to avoid that fate.


Paper is often found at plane crashes, because its light weight it has low inertia, which means no matter how hard its flung from a crash it doesn't hit very hard, plus its flexible which means its more likely to bend rather than break.



Originally posted by The Baby Seal Club


"There is no requirement to survive being crushed under the weight of 500,000 tons of building debris."

With this argument you're assuming that the 4 boxes were stacked on top of each other and that the entire weight of the 2 buildings was on top of them. Not true. Considering the size of the boxes and the area over which the debris was scattered, you'd be a lot closer if you were to say 100 tons on top of each box.
Black boxes are designed to withstand pressure of over 4 tons...per sq. in.!

Keep in mind the Black Boxes where not subjected to a static weight. The actual mass of the part of the building that fell on top of them had more force because of its speed. A 5 pound weight gently placed on your mouth might hurt a bit, but it wont knock out your teeth or break your jaw. That same weight, dropped from 10 feet will.




Originally posted by The Baby Seal Club
"The recorders were not likely to survive in the WTC crashes."

Huh? please post your links where the FAA or NTSB said this directly after the incidents. Or is that just your opinion?




"experts doubted whether all the recorders would be found. The devices aboard the two planes that rammed the World Trade Center towers probably couldn't survive the crash impact and the resulting fires, they said"

This quote was from a chicago tribune article dated september 14. The link no longer leadsto the article, given that its over 8 years old. but the old link is as follows.

www.chicagotribune.com/technology/chi-0109140350sep14,1,4548196.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

This is a link to an archived version of said article.
www.accessmylibrary.com...

[edit on 12/18/2009 by Doglord]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 09:46 PM
link   
reply to post by Doglord
 





Paper is often found at plane crashes, because its light weight it has low inertia, which means no matter how hard its flung from a crash it doesn't hit very hard, plus its flexible which means its more likely to bend rather than break.


Okay. Paper was found at the crash site. That is reasonable.

Explain to me how the passport of a highjacker that was both not on the flight manifest nor seen boarding the plane made it out, while also explaining to me how our government knew he was a highjacker.
All this was put together immediately.

How could they do that, but yet not stop the highjacking?

Immediately after the impact the "official storyline" began to circulate.

Also...

Explain to me how an ENTIRE PLANE was vaporized upon impact at the Pentagon, but yet not any of the DNA of the passengers.

What caused the plane to vaporize, but not the DNA and please provide links?



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by Josephus23


Okay. Paper was found at the crash site. That is reasonable.


Explain to me how the passport of a highjacker that was both not on the flight manifest nor seen boarding the plane made it out,

Source?

Because according to this, which was presented as evidence at Zacarias Moussaoui's trial, the name of the hijacker whose passport was found, Satam al-Suqami, is in fact listed.






while also explaining to me how our government knew he was a highjacker.
All this was put together immediately.

Immediately? Define immediately.
According to this, Ed Freni, the director of aviation operations at Logan airport, received a fax from American Airlines of the passenger manifests at approximately 9:30 and singled out the muslim names (based on the 1993 WTC attacks) which he then forwarded to the FBI.



A director at Boston’s Logan Airport receives the passenger manifests for Flight 11 and Flight 175, and reportedly is able to quickly single out the names of the five hijackers on each of these flights. Ed Freni, the director of aviation operations at Logan, had phoned his contacts at American and United Airlines who are based at the airport roughly around 9:00-9:15. He had requested the manifests for the two hijacked planes that took off from there (see (9:00 a.m.-9:15 a.m.) September 11, 2001). Several pages with names listed in long columns now roll out of the fax machine in the Massachusetts Port Authority (Massport) aviation office at Logan, where Freni recently arrived. Freni looks over the manifest for Flight 11. Aware that Arab men attacked the World Trade Center in 1993, he searches for any Arabic names. According to author Tom Murphy, he circles the names of the five men later accused of being the plane’s hijackers: “In 2A and 2B, he circled two, both W. Alshehri. In 8D, M. Atta, and 8G, A. Alomari. In 10B, he circled S. Al Suqami.”

www.amazon.com...
pg34-36




How could they do that, but yet not stop the highjacking?

Looks like an perfect example of "crowdsourcing"to me. People stepped up. Justlike all the volunteer rescue workersat the WTC site.



Immediately after the impact the "official storyline" began to circulate.

Thats funny, because I remember a lot of confusion that day.
Care to watch archived video of the news broadcasts that were recorded live?
www.archive.org...



Also...

Explain to me how an ENTIRE PLANE was vaporized upon impact at the Pentagon, but yet not any of the DNA of the passengers.

Source for "the entire plane"?






top topics



 
38
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join