Hitler was NOT an occultist

Although Hitler apparently had little interest in the occult - as Mark Sedgwick writes, “Hitler had no sympathy for occultism of any variety,” - he had close contact with people who did, and the Nazi movement, while not the product of “black brotherhoods” or diabolical “unknown superiors,” was certainly amenable to some occult influences. Himmler’s SS infamously incorporated runic, pagan, and Grail elements and was deeply influenced by the ideas of the occultist Karl Maria Wiligut. One SS officer, Otto Rahn, wrote a bestselling book, Crusade against the Grail, associating the Cathars with the Grail legend. Hermann Wirth, author of the monumental The Rise of Mankind, used meditation to view the past and argued, like Bal Gangadhar Tilak, that the Aryan race began in the frozen north. In 1935 Wirth was a co-founder of the notorious Ahnenerbe, the Nazi “research unit” devoted to uncovering Germany’s ancestral Aryan heritage, whose efforts included sending the SS explorer Ernst Schäfer to the Himalayas to measure Tibetan skulls. And while Hitler himself may have rejected occultism, he was certainly aware of “the power of myth,” a phrase familiar to viewers of the journalist Bill Moyers’ fantastically successful series of interviews with the mythologist Joseph Campbell.

True

I have said this for year. Yeah, I have read The Spear of Destiny and such that claimed that Hitler was an occultist, but the fact that he persecuted Freemasons and the like says a lot. People say, well, "He certainly wasn't Christian." Well,yes and no.

Adolf Hitler was brought up a Roman Catholic. According to historian Bradley F. Smith, Hitler's father Alois, though nominally a Catholic, was a religious sceptic,[1] while his mother was a practising Catholic.

Catholicism

While people always mention Hitler's desire to be a painter, few ever mention that at one time he also had dreams of being a priest. Whether that is through not knowing about the fact orjust ignoring it, I know not.

Now, one of the accusations against Hitler that certainly seems to be legit is that he was a social Darwinist.

Social Darwinism refers to various ideologies based on a concept of competition among all individuals, groups, nations, or ideas drives social evolution in human societies.[

Darwin

I'm afraid that many an hour-long documentary on the History Channel begs to differ that Hitler had no interest in the occult. He might not have been a card carrying sorcercer or anything, but he and those around him seem to have had a definite interest in old Norse magic.

reply to post by 2000 Yards


Well, you have to look at how slanted an opinion is presented at times. People always want to associate the occult with Satanism. What is funny about that is that most occultists don't even believe in Satan!!

Now, that is beyond the scope of this thread, but it is a good example of how western culture has an obsession with demonizing the occult.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Wikipedia refers to the occult studies being "hidden knowledge". So are you claiming he wasn't into that type of study or that he was not a satanist?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Now, one of the accusations against Hitler that certainly seems to be legit is that he was a social Darwinist.

Which is odd considering the superior group required affirmative action protection by the state over the fear that the inferior groups would consume it.

reply to post by EnlightenUp



Hitler was an elitist. He didn't think "lesser groups" had any reason to exist. If that's not social Darwinism, I don't know what is.

reply to post by GeechQuestInfo



Well, Hitler never gave any reason for people to think he had "hidden knowledge." He hated the Freemasons, which are, at least supposedly, bearers of "hidden knowledge."

Originally posted by 2000 Yards
I'm afraid that many an hour-long documentary on the History Channel begs to differ that Hitler had no interest in the occult. He might not have been a card carrying sorcercer or anything, but he and those around him seem to have had a definite interest in old Norse magic.

Seriously, just about everyone agrees that Hitler WAS into the occult. His antisemitism came straight out of the Ostara Magazine, which he collected, back-ordering as needed.

A few seconds of searching Google reveals his religion. This taken from a speech of Hitler. Another home run showing the dangers of religion--



"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

I don't know... If he didn't know anything about the occult then he misunderstood a lot of what his regime was doing, or didn't know about the symbols that he surrounded himself by.

I can't get myself to imagine an ignorant, unobservant hitler...

Not saying your wrong, but its kind of a big claim with regards to certain aspects of his agenda that are pretty well researched.

I am open, if there is enough data to support what you are saying.

To say he was not an occultist kind of means there is a definition of occultist, that I'm not sure is really established.

I think the Sun, moon, astronomical stuff is important - and that magnetism is important, but does that make me an occultist?

The word is just not accurate to use here... I think the word 'occultist' has the derogatory connotations of 'satanist' attached to it, when in reality it shouldn't be.

It doesn't sound right to say that an astronomer, or someone interested in astronomy, is an occultist.

I am interested in the 'hidden' laws of nature. If that implies I am an occultist, then so are physical scientists. See what I am getting at?

edit: And all that aside, remember that Theosophy just started up around the turn of the century, and it is an 'occultists', or 'truth seekers' index of everything. The ambition of Theosophy is really unparalleled, I think. HPB just went for it. And Social Darwinism aside, Theosophy presents its own view of races that could very well have reinforced the eugenics ideas of the time.

[edit on 15-12-2009 by beebs]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

Hitler was an elitist. He didn't think "lesser groups" had any reason to exist. If that's not social Darwinism, I don't know what is.

I realize the term is used as a perjorative. It's "less is more" type Orwellianspeak to call it Darwinist. It's not competition, it's artificial preference or welfare for the preferred group. Not that I would expect any less to come out of those on the dark path than to use "superiority" to actually damage a group of people and set the stage for vengence.

Hitler himself was the least of it all. Really, I think in practice he was just a vessel for another entity. It was all meant to lead up to now.

I thought Hitler was well into that VRIL BS...

IRM

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

Hitler himself was the least of it all. Really, I think in practice he was just a vessel for another entity. It was all meant to lead up to now.

That is probably true.

I would say that if he had any understanding of true occultism, it was cursory. Now, people like Himmler might....I don't know.

Everyone forgets the impact that people like Nietzsche had on Hitler. I mean the whole concept of Hitler's "Super man" was pretty much derivedfrom the philophical writings of Nietzsche.

Of course, some one already brought upthe Vril society.

Vril is a substance described in Edward Bulwer-Lytton's 1871 novel The Coming Race, which was later reprinted as Vril: The Power of the Coming Race. The novel is an early example of science fiction. However, many early readers believed that its account of a superior subterranean master race and the energy-form called "Vril" was accurate, to the extent that some theosophists accepted the book as truth. Furthermore, since 1960 there has been a conspiracy theory about a secret Vril Society.

Vril

I'm sorry, but given that the idea even came from a science fiction writer pretty much disqualifies Vril from being occult. I mean that is almost like saying Scientology is occult. Baloney!! The occult predates all of that by thousands and thousands of years!!



[edit on 15-12-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by beebs
And Social Darwinism aside, Theosophy presents its own view of races that could very well have reinforced the eugenics ideas of the time.

[edit on 15-12-2009 by beebs]

That is one of the charges leveled against Theosophy. People say that is what fed Hitler's "superman" stuff, but in all truthfulness, if one reads deeply into the influences upon Hitler, one finds that Nietzsche had much more of an impact on Hitler than Theosophy ever thought about having.

[edit on 16-12-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by pplrnuts


Don't only show one side of the story. Hitler was a panderer who spoke out both sides of his mouth depending on the crowd he wanted to sway. Sometimes he was pro-Christian. Sometimes he was vocally anti-Christian. Sometimes he was very pro-occult. Sometimes he was very anti-occult. He even has a few comments complimenting Islam. Sometimes he was anti-atheist. Sometimes he supported Catholicism and sometimes he had Catholics killed. Sometimes he called for a more religious state and sometimes he called for the state to be politicized and more secular.

Check this out: www.straightdope.com...

Nobody really KNOWS what he was other than the standard politician who tells the people what they want to hear. His public speeches, published works, and private memoirs all conflict.

If he was not an occultist, why was he a member of the Vril Society?

greyfalcon.us...

oops. i just ruined your thread.

Edi to add: I just saw that someone responded whith the same Vril question. The idea of Vril was not made up by a sci-fi writer. The idea of Vril has been around for a millenia(chi, psi, etc). The author simply coined a new term for it.

Vril is most definitely an occult idea(as are MANY things that fall into the sci-fi classification).

[edit on 16-12-2009 by captaintyinknots]

reply to post by captaintyinknots


Sorry, but Sci-fi is not occultism.... Where you get that notion is beyond me.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

Sorry, but Sci-fi is not occultism.... Where you get that notion is beyond me.

The entire statment I made was obviously beyond you. I did not say that all sci-fi was occultism. What i DID say was that many aspect found in sci-fi are occult in nature. If you dont think so, I can gladly cite you MANY examples, but the connections should be OBVIOUS to anyone with ANY knowledge of both occult and sci-fi.(That is, of course, unless you only consider things such as Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica sci-fi. The genre goes FAR beyond these types of stories, and even those contain HEAVY influence by occult history)

Do a little research before you try and belittle someone.

reply to post by captaintyinknots



Well, given the fact that I am well versed in occult and mystical knowledge, I seriously doubt it's the occult I need to research.
In regards to sci-fi, I don't waste my neurons. Thank ya. By the way, I returned the favor of adding you to my "respected foes" list. Have a good day now.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

Well, given the fact that I am well versed in occult and mystical knowledge, I seriously doubt it's the occult I need to research.

In regards to sci-fi, I don't waste my neurons. Thank ya. By the way, I returned the favor of adding you to my "respected foes" list. Have a good day now.

Well, you can claim to be well versed all you want. if you do not understand that NEARLY all sci-fi has elements of the occult in it, it shows your claim to be VERY hollow.

Again, if you'd like, I'll gladly start listing examples(although, as I said before, someone as 'well versed' in occult, as you claim to be, ought to be quite aware of it).

Silly, silly deflections...