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Greece poised for first major European sovereign default since 1948

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posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 06:39 PM
"Its five minutes to midnight for Greece," says an economist who is about to join Citigroup. Students, pensioners, and public workers are already protesting and stiking en masse in the streets of Athens. (I bet there are some intereesting youTube clips already but I haven't looked).

Don't forget this would have terrible ripple effects throughout the rest of Europe.

Leading Greek economists and bankers yesterday warned George Papandreou, prime minister, that he had to announce bold initiatives to rescue the country's collapsing bond market and avert the possibility of defaulting on a rising public debt.
Yannis Stournaras, an Athens University economics professor and former chief adviser at the finance ministry, said: "Other countries in trouble have already taken measures. If we don't quickly follow suit the adjustment will be imposed by markets and it will be violent."

There is also serious talk of Greece and similarly-troubled Ireland leaving the eurozone currency -- whether they want to or not. Yes, it really is that bad.

Greece and Ireland are among countries in an “intolerable” economic situation, which may lead to bailouts or even an exit from the euro area by the end of next year, according to Standard Bank Plc.
“Countries like Ireland and Greece may not be able to grow out of the current crisis,” Barrow said in a telephone interview today. “With interest-rate cuts, exchange-rate depreciation and significant fiscal support all off limits for these countries, bailouts or even pullouts from EMU may happen next year.”

More at source:

posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 07:17 PM
Crazy stuff, maybe if they cut spending it would help them out a bunch. have to get rid of a bunch of social safety nets, but at this point they are going to lose everything.

This is going to send ripples through the global economy, if this is allowed to happen. Which I'm guessing it will be for the simple fact that nobody has any money.

posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 07:34 PM
reply to post by silent thunder

It's getting ugly and the US and the rest of the world knows it. What gets me is why haven't the US came out and bailed them out. I think that the problem that is facing Greece and Ireland and also the Austrian bank that had to be nationalized because it has bad loans to eastern europe (nobody hasn't said anything about these countries defaulting which they are) to the amount of 70% of the countries GDP. That was also reported on CNBC but underreported by every place else. The problem is that almost everyone of those countries public and private banks did the same thing that our banks did and bought the same junk that we sold them as Grade A securities. It's a circular firing squad and people are trying to figure out how to walk out of it without being noticed. We are screwed.

posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 07:47 PM

Originally posted by hoghead cheese
What gets me is why haven't the US came out and bailed them out.

The US is having more than enough trouble bailing itself out these days.

The days of running to Uncle Sam for help in times of trouble and then muttering darkly about what a tyrent he is once the problem is over are likely to finish up soon. The US probably won't be able to afford its global network of bases much longer (exept in a few "crucial" places -- read, where there is oil), so Europe will be saddled with the additional expense of providing for its own armed forces or perhaps embracing the bear hug of Mother Russia.

posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 07:50 PM
reply to post by silent thunder

I agree, once the economic consequences hit us full bore we will not be in the position to do anything but work on our own problems and live with the fact that the dollar is no more and our status in the world is like russia after 1990.

posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 08:32 PM
...meanwhile our stupid leaders intend on giving money to 3rd world countries for a problem not of our making.

The EU’s authorities, rightly or wrongly, are more afraid of the moral hazard of a bail-out than the possible spillover effect of a hypothetical Greek default to other eurozone countries. If faced with a choice between preserving the integrity of the stability pact and the integrity of Greece, they are currently minded to choose the former. To safeguard what is left of the stability pact, they are determined to link any help to a country’s willingness to comply. Otherwise the EU fears it might lose all leverage over budgetary processes elsewhere in the eurozone. And no country in the eurozone has flouted the pact more than Greece.

If the Greek government refused to comply, which is quite possible, the next step could be the penalty procedure under the stability pact. So instead of helping Greece, the EU might be asking Greece to pay a penalty. This in turn would aggravate Greece’s financial position in the unlikely event that the government would agree to pay it.


This isn't over by a long shot, and it will only get worse as the months roll on and this stuff becomes harder to hide.

[edit on 15-12-2009 by mirageofdeceit]

posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 08:35 PM
Wow...that's about the first 6 words out of my mouth. The seventh can't be repeated.

You can see that even though Greece and Ireland aren't considered "important" countries how this would cause a ripple effect. I mean seriously, the euro is going to take a hit if they pull out. Makes me wonder though how much it'd cost them to start their own printing presses back up with their own local currency.

And yeah, the US can't be looked to for help anymore. It's too busy helping itself by digging its grave deeper and deeper.

My question though is if this could be used as a case for other nations to pull out of the EU later on? This is for sure a major crisis for their new president.

posted on Dec, 16 2009 @ 12:34 AM
reply to post by silent thunder

Just to clarify WHY Greece and Ireland (and Spain and Italy within the next year will be in danger as well) would be removed from the Eurozone:

The European Union forbids member states from "bailing out" other member states... this was so that certain states could not milk the other states for cash, more specifically larger economies like France and Germany.

What makes this ironic.... if a State, say, Ireland, NEEDS to be bailed out, they are likely to default on their sovereign debts... now, if a country reaches the point of bankruptcy like Ireland and Greece, or worse, if they actually do default, they would be removed from the Eurozone's economic pact. We hear in the news about some Eastern European states like Romania, Czech Republic or Turkey needing "improvements" and so on, most has to do economically, or else humanitarian..

There's a loophole though, larger economies like France, Germany, Italy etc can buy the National Debt (and probably have been) ... but I know for sure Ireland's debt to GDP ratio is so outrageous that there honestly is no hope for them.. their ponzi scheme has come to a close.. even if their economy was as good as it was 3 years ago, they would still have a mega debt issue to deal with. So it's hardly any surprise the Irish saw the incompetency of their own leaders and signed their souls away with the Lisbon Treaty...

Sad stuff.

posted on Dec, 16 2009 @ 12:45 AM
reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

Which is exactly the point. Ireland, Iceland, GreeCe.. .All of these are states that have taken up the mantle of Miltonian economics. The Chicago school of thought is every bit as much a scam as those emails you get from the prince of Nigeria.

Basically the Miltonians are invited in to try to help a state with a troubled economy - Such as post-communist Poland. Their advice is of course, to cut every social program and economic regulation to "free the market". What naturally happens is that inflation skyrockets, employment plummets, the economy goes absolutely haywire, and then foreign firms - usually owned by a different cadre of Miltonians, comes in to buy up the infrastructure at pennies to the dollar. Then they either strip these properties of all their assets for sale elsewhere, or they fix what the other miltonians broke (say by importing cheap labor to replace the unemployed locals) and then sell it back at extortion rates.

Greece and Ireland are literally victims of economic gang-rape.

posted on Dec, 16 2009 @ 12:50 AM

My son was in Iraq for 18 months then came home in March and is now stationed in Greece.


posted on Dec, 16 2009 @ 01:23 AM

Originally posted by silent thunder
The US probably won't be able to afford its global network of bases much longer (exept in a few "crucial" places -- read, where there is oil), so Europe will be saddled with the additional expense of providing for its own armed forces or perhaps embracing the bear hug of Mother Russia.

Sorry, but how have you built the perception that American forces are protecting anyone?

The bases, embassies and so on in European nations are not visible, they're not particularly active, they serve as an outpost to the US and nothing more.
There is no "protection" either requested nor expected.

I know you mean well, and I often respect your opinion. But it does annoy me when Americans think that their guys are all over the world at the begging request of host nations, protecting them because they are unable to protect themselves.

You have a few people in each nation running admin, intel and at the most militaristic, covert operations or support for your attacks and invasions of other countries where there's something for you to steal.

posted on Dec, 16 2009 @ 11:23 AM
reply to post by detachedindividual

It is irrelevant whether or not you or I think think US military presence in Europe is good or bad -- for protection or explotiation. The simple and salient fact here is that it costs MONEY. Without US troops, this will mean more money spent by European nations for their own militaries. An effective military is a very expensive thing (it eats up about half of US tax dollars, for example). European economies are already runnng very steep deficits. They have promised to deliver all sorts of services to their people that they can't afford. Do you think they can afford a big military on top of that? Plus, most European nations are experiencing declining birthrates, which will make staffing a military with young soldiers more difficult.

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