Previously undiscovered ancient city found on Caribbean sea floor

page: 10
84
<< 7  8  9    11  12 >>

log in

join

posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 05:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
If you do a rough tally of pro's and con's in this thread you will see that at least 90% of the replies not only think the campaign to raise money to explore the anomaly is fake, they also think there is no lost civilization in the caribbean area. Double whammy!


People can THINK whatever they want, but there is evidence of lost civilizations in the Caribbean...quadruple whammy for ya..


BTW, I don't think the pictures show any sort of ancient city, but there are ruins off the coast of Cuba, and there is evidence of advanced civilizations living at least in Cuba....




posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 07:43 PM
link   
im voting fake. same thing happened 3 or 4 months ago when a british tabloid said atlantis was found in the mediterranean, it was nothing more than a google earth anomaly. anyone remembers the story?

people do this everytime, be it for the money, be it because they are attention whores or because they are disinfo agents. Either way, the truth about Atlantis, if found, won't be shared

[edit on 17-12-2009 by Picollo30]

[edit on 17-12-2009 by Picollo30]



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 07:50 PM
link   
reply to post by Picollo30
 


In this particular case you are right. This is nothing more than a scam. But this scam doesn't refute the fact that there are ruins and at least one lost city in the Caribbean.



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 08:04 PM
link   
reply to post by GideonHM
 





You can't be a real debunker if all you have to go off of is compression artifacts and a gut feeling. Literally you have to go there and prove that the satellite is wrong, and the image is simply garbage. If there is a global conspiracy to cover up anything not 'normal', then someone at a governmental position most likely came up with the compression artifacts as a means to set a precedent to any other images produced with similar technology.


Star for you my friend and I wish that I could give you more.

I see so many posts basically saying this:

"I call hoax"(followed by a non-sequitur or an ad hominem attack)

And that is all that they say.

These pictures could be faked. They could be real. They could be photo-shopped.

Who knows?

I wish that it was possible to see the IP addresses of the many so called "debunkers" on this website, because it would not surprise me one bit if all these stars and flags that show up as soon as someone gets on a thread and provides minimal to no evidence to back up a claim of hoax are all coming from a very few IP addresses.

Actually, I take that back. I am shocked at myself.

Mainly because I am letting the complete and total lack of respect for the scientific method being shown by the growing minion of "debunkers" eat at me.

Rule number 1 in research science:

1)NEVER SPECULATE BEYOND THE DATA.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 12:02 AM
link   
reply to post by McGinty
 


Unfortunately, the Atlantians were recorded as being segregationist in their beliefs and tendencies. There were the 'beast' people of the mountains who were kept from the civilization and apparently they were basically at the technological level of Neanderthals.

I wouldn't naturally think that an underwater LA exists, but the image is crappy no matter how you look at it, and history is prone to repeat itself. With a high tendency towards social order, most societies will adopt similar behaviors and attitudes, and lifestyle choices.

The most important people get whatever they want and most Atlantian citizens probably got most of the same perks. If you weren't a citizen, then you are living in the caves grunting at the other grunty people cast aside just like you were.

On top of this, were this city (if it exists) such a civilization, then many would have brought their beliefs and attitudes with them after they Iron Pillared (nuked) themselves to oblivion. As such, then you have a replication of the previous civilizations (Lemuria, Atlantis and whomever else) and of the pyramidal organization structure that keeps them at the top and everyone else below right where they want the little people to worship them from.

There is no difference between a God, and a person with all the same powers and a god complex. This person can shoot fire from his fingertips! He must be a God. Little does the victim know that there is an advanced particle accelerator device attached to his palm that lets him shoot fire any time he wants. What he really wants is to never be questioned and to have the little people build him a new empire in his own image.

It doesn't last. What I am saying is, LA's street design and structure may very well have its precedent somewhere in Earth's forgotten history, and simply because the patterns look familiar, well what do you expect?

Ah, just what I would expect, most likely. Giant statuary scattered along the sea bed, fish and dolphins swimming over massive temples and structures that have a little bit of every culture present in its art. Hee hee! That was a shower curtain I had once. What a dream.

Yet, if people see anything that reminds them of their own culture in something way too old to fit within the current historical paradigm, they will cry hoax and dismiss it as bogus when all we have is a sketchy image that is as conclusive as the highlightered moon temple and statue pictures.

Some look eerie and man made, most are so garbled that you can't really make heads or tails of it. Sure, I think a flooded city from history is possible, I find it more unlikely that the Egyptian priests talking of a 10,000 year old civilization to Plato were just ignorant fools that just simply believed in stupid things. You can believe Plato for the sciency stuff, but why is his evidence compromised for something less certain? Because it is less certain?

Not really. We are programmed to believe that past humans were simply ignorant, and that we as we currently are have become the most advanced version of our species in terms of everything. I played far too much Phantasy Star IV to simply take that for granted (the game involves exploring the remains of a formerly advanced civilization whose main planet was blown up).

It is statistically unlikely that every spectre, ghost, vampire, demon, angel, god, and other supernatural beings were all completely either misunderstandings of the universe or the people were just stupid. Many innocent people died because of mass ergot poisonings, who were accused of being witches, it does happen. I don't believe that every person who died were necessarily innocent, or that their possible supernatural condition is explainable by the limited perspective of mainstream science in this day and age.

We have Yeti footprints and genetic samples that don't match anything, but are hominid and large. Is that enough? NO! Only when a government official says they exist in a way the psycho debunkers can accept, then it MAY be enough. Rather, the only way to prove anything for the last few hundred years is to kill and pickle anything you want people to believe in.

Without a pickled yeti, mainstream society will not accept it. So it is much the same for the possibility of this city existing. Unless you disturb the resting place of countless dead people and throw their artefacts shamelessly on display around the world, most will never accept the possibility of a regular city underwater, not to mention any acceptance of one more advanced than us.

Really, it is not allowed in our current social context to believe that, unless you want to look crazy or you keep it to a dull roar. Otherwise you will be ridiculed and attacked until you dredge up enough of their memories and lives that it is undeniable, or someone else blows the lid off it.

I think a city could very well be there, and looking at that picture doesn't really convince me at all. If not in this location, there are hidden cities found all the time and it is only a matter of time until the historical mother lode is discovered. This statement will prove itself possibly in a matter of weeks, maybe longer, don't know.

Deny all you like, it isn't a hoax. It is a picture that is possible evidence.

Please do some research on what fallacies are and see how what most people use to debunk are nothing more than ancient techniques that were originally sold to people under the premise that then they could get people to do whatever they wanted. Someone isn't doing what you want? Appeal to force. Just beat the S.O.B till they cave in, if they die, then they serve as a reminder to the rest. That is but one fallacy. Strawman/Red Herring and Ad Hominem are the most common fallacies used on ATS. Learn what they are and avoid these behaviors like the plague.

Really.

[edit on 18-12-2009 by GideonHM]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 12:44 AM
link   
reply to post by Josephus23
 


Great post!
However, speculation beyond the data is the only way to figure out what the real data really is! Speculation is part of the scientific method. A hypothesis is exactly that, coupled with observations and hopefully honesty. Then you have a start, but if you never speculate beyond the information given, you will simply run the numbers for the equation and the answer is just being fed to you.

No one could possibly know everything, so it is important to accept the already proven data to ensure accuracy. That is a fallacy as well.

There is no such thing as a safe assumption and the second people stop assuming that ANYONE IN CHARGE can be trusted in a full spectrum manner, then people might start thinking for themselves again.

It is as simple as being willing to change your mind the instant you receive contrary information. Most scientists can't do that, they are intellectually compromised and will take their beliefs to the grave.

Don't end up like Bill Nye and Stephen Hawking. They lost my respect by stating directly that they do not follow the scientific method when it comes to UFO's and other unexplained phonomena we may be experiencing. They simply refuse to even look at the evidence.

If anyone reading this thinks they are impartial, thoughtful, debunkers, and you engage in using fallacies, or make up your mind the second you read the OP, then you are lying to yourselves and are seriously compromising the beauty and sanctity of ATS.

Most of you will watch this world change before your very eyes and you won't even see it happen. Just like that underwater city that may or may not be there. Your mentalities are the real Hoax. At least some do understand and they are going to be your only hope.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 12:55 AM
link   
This story has made it into The Daily Mail (UK).. So it MUST be true then!!



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 01:14 AM
link   
reply to post by GideonHM
 


Gideon, I can accept that this is a subject you are very passionate about. To be fair, I was equally as passionate about it when I was younger and less cynical as well.

However, your argument is being undermined considerably by the amount of passion you are backing it with. You are not leaving this open to debate, you are stating unequivocally that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is a blind and foolish debunker who needs to open their eyes.

You have to realize, that this is a topic that has had so many hoaxes in the past century that it is nearly impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff anymore. Given the evidence already provided that casts the entire OP article into question, it has been proven that this particular case is very solidly chaff.

We don't need to examine the direct feed from the satellite that created these images to prove they are not of an ancient city, just as we did not need to physically examine the sun to determine how it works. Evidence has been provided, and a conclusion derived from it.

As for:


Unfortunately, the Atlantians were recorded as being segregationist in their beliefs and tendencies. There were the 'beast' people of the mountains who were kept from the civilization and apparently they were basically at the technological level of Neanderthals.


There is no record of Atlantis aside from a few scant passages in Timeas and Criteas. Have you read either of these works by Plato? I will assume you have not, based on your statements. Plato is very specific about the things that would have interested him as a mathematician, namely the dimensions of the city and its general location. Other than these few passages THERE IS NO RECORD OF ANY ATLANTEAN SOCIETY IN ANY HISTORY OF ANY HUMAN SOCIETY

There are myths and legends of lost civilizations, of course, but any additional information claimed to concern Atlantis has its origins firmly in the 21st century rise of neo-mysticism and snake-oil myth peddlers.

Don't get me wrong, I've read Hancocks books, I've looked at charts of the mid-Atlantic ridge. Hell, I've even spent some money looking into some extremely interesting ruins around Bimini. But one needs to learn to separate the possible leads from the obvious bull being peddled to make a quick buck off the ignorant.

Once you get through highschool you get a wider perspective on the situation, no matter what you might believe now. While the Phantasy Star series was great (The twist at the end of 2, or was it 3, still blows my mind) it really doesn't support your case to bring up a video game in this particular argument.


In conclusion, and the doubt you will ever read this, or at least reply without cherry picking my comments, I heartily request that this thread be moved into HOAX once more and that ATS forumites stop flagging the hell out of obvious junk. Even the OP admits it's junk at this point.

[edit on 18-12-2009 by D.E.M.]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 01:51 AM
link   

Originally posted by Gools
In addition to the sleuthing done by some members in this thread about the location of Herald de Paris' operation (and the fact that they are looking to raise money) a quick check of their homepage is all I need to look at to call Bravo Sierra on this whole thing.

If you're a true believer, then I suggest you get in on the ground floor of their new program:

Herald de Paris announces a new Luxury real estate program


HERALD DE PARIS - We have made a name for ourselves by being out-of-the-box thinkers...


Indeed.

:shk:
.

[edit on 16 Dec 09 by Gools]


SHAME ON YOU!

You just blatantly used fallacies to discredit a news organization, not on the quality of their news, but on their morally questionable decision to start further catering to rich people by hosting their real estate sales.

It is ok for other news papers to advertise whatever they want to whatever clientele they want. Here, you attempt to discredit a news source for focusing a standard practice of advertising housing for the PEOPLE WHO READ THE PAPER.

You should do better than your post. The actual quality of the news on this website does not appear to directly relate to their real estate decisions, and that is exactly what I am calling you on.

I am taking a real risk pointing out that you just engaged in faulty reasoning, the very same kind that is truly killing thoughtful, reasonable conversations throughout societies now a days.

It makes me sick to see this news site cater to the rich, I hate it. Gee, next they will start offering to mow their lawns and clean their houses, but not for less than one million. Their requests for the advertising were also reasonable, and super mod or not, you really chose to take the low road on this, when there are countless other ways to apply doubt to the claims.

This was not the way. This was wrong, and even if the only other person who reads this is another mod throwing it away, then so be it, and I will have a copy of this message, and I will take it as far as it can go if I have to should that happen.

Come on! I shouldn't even have to say this. You are a super moderator.

That is all.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 02:09 AM
link   
reply to post by D.E.M.
 


First and foremost, you started out with an assumption. That passion and anger equate to someone who is obviously younger and less intellectually capable than you.

You would be completely wrong on that. Also, since I am two semesters away from grad school and my bachelors degree, not to mention the many other educational accomplishments I have earned under my belt on top of graduating with honors for my Associates degree with a 4.0, I suggest that you try to avoid the Ad Hominem attacks on my person when you clearly have trouble discerning youth and inexperience from an angry person who by far cleared the drinking age by the time you were concerned by my age and capacity.

Second, your stating that there is no historical precedent is yet another fallacy. Are you going to spew these things till the apocalypse? Plato said that the Egyptian priests had direct knowledge of a 10,000 year old civilization. I obviously can't confirm that, and you can't deny it. I already spoke at great length about these attitudes and issues.

Not to mention this is not about the civilization of Atlantis or grainy pictures, it is about shutting me up.

You win.




Oh one last thing, YES you do need to observe the sun directly in order to truly understand its function, just as one who relies on the information of others without positively checking on it themselves are setting themselves up to be taken for fools. Scientists don't know, they are GUESSING and if they are not blasted by contrary information they will not change their minds. So are you behaving in the same fashion.

By the by, Phantasy Star IV is literally over 13 years old.
How did you not understand it was a very old reference for perspective and clarity of concept?

[edit on 18-12-2009 by GideonHM]

[edit on 18-12-2009 by GideonHM]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:40 AM
link   

Originally posted by Picollo30
im voting fake. same thing happened 3 or 4 months ago when a british tabloid said atlantis was found in the mediterranean, it was nothing more than a google earth anomaly. anyone remembers the story?

people do this everytime, be it for the money, be it because they are attention whores or because they are disinfo agents. Either way, the truth about Atlantis, if found, won't be shared
[edit on 17-12-2009 by Picollo30]


And even if it is shared people will think its another disinfo attempt. Thats what happens when people get tired of hoaxes. The nwo has everything to gain by discrediting the truth and keeping people ignorant. Just look at the ufo/aliens/crop circle forumns.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 01:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by GideonHM
reply to post by D.E.M.
 


Plato said that the Egyptian priests had direct knowledge of a 10,000 year old civilization. I obviously can't confirm that, and you can't deny it.


I don't get it. Could you go into more detail about why it can't be denied despite the complete lack of evidence? I'm not trying to deny it, don't get me wrong, I just want to understand your concept of burden of proof.

What I'm getting at is that my old boss told me that Egypt once traded slaves with one or more of the great civilizations in South or Central America. That would actually match up pretty well with your claim about Plato, the Olmecs, and the New Kingdoms slaves wouldn't it?



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 03:11 PM
link   
reply to post by beaverg
 


The lack of proof aside from a retelling of a historical perspective from an Egyptian priest makes Atlantis no more real than it could be illusion.

If someone says something is a hoax, garbage, a lie, not worth reading, etc. then the burden of proof falls on the claim that it is garbage and so on.

I never said I had proof of Atlantis that was concrete enough to prove much of anything. I originally was responding to a poster who was hoping to paint the Atlantians in a more kindly and non-isolationist, we are better than everyone else mentality that seems to be a historically consistent perspective.

My info simply comes from the historical information provided that clearly said there was another group of 'barbarians' that lived outside of the power and protection of Atlantis, and they lived in the mountains like animals.

Then, as is usual for the mega debunkers, I am personally attacked as a child simply because I have always been fairly excitable. A college education is all I need to defend myself personally, when the real issue was that I was not directly connecting Atlantis to this thread, but I simply recalled what I have read of Plato's writings on Atlantis and explained why an ancient city could look feasibly like Los Angeles. In response to an intelligent statement to which I really agree with.

If it did exist, then at least a select group would have been privy to the knowledge of how the city was built and that basic pattern of building could have easily been culturally retained to this day and has evolved to particular environments and societies.

If you make claims, no matter if they are in response to a claim then you are bound as the person saying so to debunk the alternative claim with PROOF. Pictures, going to the bottom of the sea or using better techniques to show there isn't anything there.

An eight year old with a screwdriver in his frontal lobe probably has as much capacity to deny everything just like the majority of self stylized debunkers do. It requires no intelligence or maturity to claim that someone lacks these qualities. All they do is scream for proof, yet since they act like they are better than the people providing the evidence they deny, they are under no moral parameters to avoid being hypocritical and refuse to give the evidence they demand. Behold the power of the Me generation and its offspring.

Is there no city like that? Prove it, or at least give an intelligently convincing argument to another possibility sans the fallacies, or be content in not believing, because I never made a definitive statement pro or con for this possible city nor Atlantis.

Hypocrisy is everywhere on this site, and the unbalanced burden of proof is not being carried at all by most debunkers, and this issue goes all the way up the chain of command on ATS.

Hee hee.

Oh and to any possible government agents, Illuminati and otherwise spying on us, maybe you should actually try inducting INTELLIGENT PEOPLE TO DO YOUR DIRTY WORK. Your current track record of using less intelligent people to boost your egos is exactly why you ran modern society into the ground. You are an embarrassment to intelligent dictators, despots, and leaders in general and will never achieve the illumination you delude yourselves into believing that you deserve.

That'll tick someone off. Those who observe are themselves observed in much the same fashion.


[edit on 18-12-2009 by GideonHM]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 03:23 PM
link   
Just found this news video on youtube so it made TV.

I still go with the image pixelation until they have something more solid.
There is so much of are planet yet to be explored that one day they will make lots of discoveries of lost cities maybe one that will change it all.
But its good that it made the news makes people stop and think about what we dont know about where we live.

THANKYOU



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 03:30 PM
link   
reply to post by mars1
 


Awesome!

If only that news clip had been posted in the OP, many people currently denying the claim would have deferred to the information source than opening a can of who gives a crap and splattering it across the thread.

Thanks!



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 03:41 PM
link   
reply to post by GideonHM
 


I know but i just found it today my gut feeling tells me its just poor images.
But i could be wrong im no expert in this sort of thing but i find it highly interesting anyway and always keep a open mind thanks for your posts.

THANKYOU



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 04:07 PM
link   
reply to post by mars1
 


Hey, a gut feeling is exactly that, and usually there is a reason to have one.

The image is really crappy. Period. Yet, this is far more about the possibilities than it is about this image or a submerged city.

I certainly got a workout on this thread!

Running yourself through the gauntlet of hypocrisy and denial is a great way to earn your wings. Be rational, honest, and knock the bastards out of the park when you can, and you may eventually have to build a trophy case for all the haters who can't understand.

Good luck!



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 08:30 PM
link   
reply to post by GideonHM
 


You are correct my friend, and the key word here is speculation; however, even when one speculates, it is usually due to some bit of information, which is essentially data.
And an individual who believes in science will use that data to validate or invalidate a hypothesis and reformulate if necessary.

I will listen to de-bunkers on ATS, but a MINORITY of the people who call themselves de-bunkers on this site actually have the mental chops to call themselves skeptics and most have only half a clue about the scientific method.

I get a bit worked up about this for several reasons:

1) The critical thinking skills of the average US citizen needs some serious fine tuning. I am well aware that I am making a drastic over-generalization here, but I am basing this on my observations regarding my interactions with individuals both here on ATS and in the general public.
If something cannot be validated and repeated then it is unknown. Period. End of story.

2) I am a Psychology major and my focus is research. I spend every day of my life focusing on the scientific method and I have a deep respect for it.

3) Anyone who holds the attention of the public and states that they refuse to acknowledge: civilization pre-history, extra-terrestrial life, cold fusion, the electric universe and the granddaddy of them all, the completely bogus official storyline regarding 911 has been compromised.

First and foremost, I want to know if said public individuals are involved in Freemasonry.
Click on the link found in my signature to get a better idea of why I want to know that information.
And read through the entire thread. I purposely posted an OP that was rhetorical and inflammatory. I wanted to get some opinions and I did.

The world is in grave condition. The divide between rich and poor has never been greater than it is right now, and it is only getting bigger. I am not advocating communism, but I am advocating simple common sense and respect of others.
I am also aware that the last comment contained some rather vague and pithy words, but it is time that common sense and respect of others ceased being abstractions.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:14 PM
link   
reply to post by Josephus23
 


You certainly have a much better perspective than many who float around.
I myself have taken enough various science courses in my studies to know when someone really isn't up for sentient dialogue, and is vainly trying to bludgeon the scientific method with opinions and hatred.

People fear what they don't understand. As Yoda put it; "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hatred leads to suffering". Most of the most hateful and insistent people on ATS are afraid of what is going to happen.

That is why they are here. To block out their fear by dismissing that which truly terrifies them. The unknown. It is easy to call someone a liar and a hoaxer, not so easy when you, yourself are being cornered by men in black suits and guns pointed at your head, or any other cosmic horror that people claim to have experienced.

Topics like ancient undersea civilizations then receive the same treatment. To accept something as simple as an abandoned city underwater requires a certain level of openness and courage that many just don't possess in this day and age.

This is not a conscious fear. This is a deep seated fear of a loss of normalcy and security. Maslow was very right on the concept of self actualization. Most people live in a constant state of survival. How will I pay my bills? What if my car doesn't start? What about Bird/swine/megadeath flu/disease? Will I have enough to retire? AHHHH!

As society is currently structured, a majority of people never made it past the third stage of the pyramid to come to a deeper understanding of themselves and the universe. You cannot expect these people to embrace the unknown when they spend their entire lives trying to avoid the unknown.

Also, this situation creates a desire to eliminate the fear and unknown from their lives. That is why so many people on ATS violently react to anyone who claims to have evidence of the unknown. It is about destroying and attacking their unconscious fears that manifest as Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, EBE's and anything else science and this society can't defend them against.

If science can't prove it, then it creates fear in their minds. A fear that must be destroyed at all costs, including the poor OPs of which many are simply trying to share their perspectives and information.

Fear of the unknown is exactly what drives many posters to attack even something as simple as the possibility of a forgotten civilization older than originally thought. It shatters the comfort zone of these people and then they will just simply follow whatever their fear tells them to do.

Usually, get angry and spew as many reasons they can muster to crush this threat and restore their naturally enclosed perspectives to their safe, complacent, orderly selves.

If a topic interrupts that equilibrium, then it will send out a flurry of emotionally insecure assaults, out of an unconscious need to live in peace and security, because our society has consistently failed to provide the peace, prosperity, and safety that are required for a self actualized society.

If there is something there when we were told there is nothing, it creates panic and this is about fear and people's addiction to it, not an undersea civilization or Atlantis.

They are simply trying to avoid the unknown at all costs and they will never truly understand how deep this fear runs.

How's that for a psychological analysis? All One. Everything is connected, and the behaviors observed on ATS are a microcosm of the greater reality we find ourselves locked into.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 11:34 PM
link   
Put aside the forged photos and open your mind, for you are about to experience the awe and mystery of...."The Tsarion Zone"
:


Google Video Link


This lecture is just a sneak peek of what Michael Tsarion can offer regarding the knowledge of Atlantis. Origins & Oracles goes into more depth, tens of hours of depth on the subject in fact.

I personally hold Michael Tsarion very high in respect, this man (in my eyes) has explained Atlantis for what it really was and why it fell.

Seriously, this is basically a sneak preview of his work (the video above). This man has researched endlessly for decades.





new topics
 
84
<< 7  8  9    11  12 >>

log in

join