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Siri Thesis - The Pope in Red

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posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 08:49 PM
I ran into this a while back and I'm not sure what to believe about it. It would go a long way toward explaining the problems in the Catholic Church today.

I first found the Siri Thesis here.

I'm not saying I adhere to this thesis but, this being a conspiracy website, I thought it my duty to post it here.


The Siri Thesis contends that actually Cardinal Siri was elected pope after the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958, but the newly-elected Pope (Gregory XVII, formerly Cardinal Siri) was threatened, prevented from taking the Papal Chair and replaced by Roncalli (John XXIII). In 1958 during the Conclave, the Houston Chronicle held a picture on the front page with the Conclave news on one side, and the picture of the hydrogen bomb on the otherside proof indeed that the enemies of the Church were threatening Siri with mass destruction if he took the Chair of Peter. Pursuant to this thesis, all of the apparent 'popes' after Pope Pius XII were/are bogus, as Siri was the true pope.

Siri died in 1989 and is said to have passed on the true pontificate to an as yet unknown successor, who will emerge in due time after the eclipse of the Church predicted at LaSalette has come to an end. It was a suppressed pontificate in the person of Cardinal Joseph Siri of Genoa, who was canonically elected in 1958, but immediately overthrown, and was intimidated into keeping silent about his status (as were his cardinals) for 31 years.

The anti-popes who replaced Siri did away with the true Mass and sacraments. No true pope could ever have done such things. That the obscuration of the pope was the prerequisite step for taking away the Mass seems to have been foretold by Melanie Calvat, one of the young seers of La Salette apparition of Our Blessed Mother. Our Lady of La Salette declared to Melanie: "The Church will be in eclipse." "Eclipse" means hidden; covered up; seeming to disappear. The Holy Scriptures say: "Where there is Peter, there is the Church." Melanie understood that Peter would be hidden along with the Church, and that his "eclipse" would be a prelude to the disappearance of the Mass. For, in commenting on this part of the secret, Melanie said to the French Abbot Combe, "The Church will be eclipsed. At first, we will not know which is the true pope. Then secondly, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass will cease to be offered in churches and houses; it will be such that, for a time, there will not be public services any more. But I see that the Holy Sacrifice has not really ceased: it will be offered in barns, in alcoves, in caves, and underground." (Abbot Combe: "The Secret of Melanie and the Actual Crisis", Rome, 1906, p.137.)

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Some proofs of the Siri Thesis


Newspapers the world over carried the Associated Press picture of the white smoke emanating from the Sistine Chapel chimney from 5:55 PM until 6:00 PM on October 26, 1958. (One of these pictures can be seen at )

White smoke indicates that a Pope has been elected, has accepted, and has chosen a name. However, no Pope appeared on October 26, 1958, despite the five minutes of white smoke.

Two days later, the white smoke again rose from the Sistine Chapel, and this time John XXIII (Angelo Roncalli) emerged. Supporters of the Siri Thesis believe that evidence indicates that Giuseppe Cardinal Siri was elected on October 26, 1958 -- when the white smoke was seen but no Pope emerged on the balcony. Supporters of the Siri Thesis believe that dire threats against the Cardinals and the Vatican were made during this time, emanating in part from the Kremlin. Some believe that the pressures included a nuclear threat against the Vatican itself if Siri were not set aside and a more acceptable candidate chosen.

The United States Federal Bureau of Investigation allegedly also claimed that Siri had indeed been elected on the third ballot on October 26, 1958.[2] This is found, complete with FBI document reference, in the book The Vatican Exposed: Money, Murder, and the Mafia by Paul L. Williams on pages 90-92. The document Williams referred to, allegedly declassified, can no longer be found. Williams, since questioned by interested readers, has adamantly refused to comment on why he included the alleged document and reference number in his book, or why the document can no longer be viewed.

There is a whole website dedicated to the idea of Cardinal Siri as pope.

The Pope in Red

As with all great conspiracy theories, there are those who work to debunk the theory.

Against the Siri Thesis

Siri could not have been pope after the 1958 conclave on three counts.

One. Siri never accepted the office.
Pope Eugenius IV, Council Of Basel, Session 23, March 26, 1436 On The Election Of The Supreme Pontiff: [On the profession of the supreme pontiff] The holy synod decrees that the person elected as pope is obliged to express his consent to the election in the manner stated below. It is fitting that this consent should be made to the Cardinals, if the person elected is present in the curia, or to one of the Cardinals or someone mandated by them if he is not present there, in the presence of a notary and at least ten persons. After he has been informed of the election, he is bound to act within a day of the demand. If he does not do so, his election is annulled and the cardinals must proceed in the Lord’s name to another election. But if he expresses his consent, as stated above, the cardinals shall straightaway make due obeisance to him as supreme pontiff.

Two. The Vicar of Christ cannot Serve the Vicar of Antichrist
No authority on earth is above the pope. Siri submitted to John XXIII as the true pope, and recognized him as such, that alone would disqualify him as pope for serving a false vicar

Three. Siri was a Manifest Heretic
Siri also signed the heretical Vatican II documents proving he was a heretic, and that is the root of his whole problem, and why God had allowed him to be bewitched, because he would not obey the truth.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by FortAnthem]

[edit on 14-12-2009 by FortAnthem]

posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 09:08 PM

Pope Gregory XVII?

posted on Dec, 22 2009 @ 10:58 AM
The more I do research into the Siri Thesis, the more I am becoming convinced there realli IS something to all of this.

Novus Ordo Watch

In 2003, former FBI consultant Paul L. Williams, author of the recently-released Osama's Revenge, published a book called The Vatican Exposed: Money, Murder, and the Mafia (Prometheus Books). Although the book deals with alleged Vatican corruption in terms of money and power and has a decidedly liberal flavor, Williams also--almost as a side-note--includes some straightforward, objective information on the papal conclave of 1958. In what cannot be called anything other than a stunning series of claims, Williams, who is not a Catholic traditionalist, asserts:

In 1954 Count Della Torre, editor of the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, warned [Pope] Pius XII of [Cardinal Angelo] Roncalli's Communist sympathies. Other members of the "Black Nobility" expressed similar concerns.[5]
Nor did Roncalli [later known as "Pope John XXIII"] escape the attention of the FBI and CIA. The agencies began to accumulate thick files on him and the questionable activities of other "progressives" within the Vatican, including Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini (the future Paul VI).
Pius XII had appointed Cardinal Giuseppe Siri as his desired successor.[7] Siri was rabidly anti-Communist, an intransigent traditionalist in matters of church doctrine, and a skilled bureaucrat. . . .
In 1958 [on October 26], when the cardinals were locked away in the Sistine Chapel to elect a new pope, mysterious events began to unfold. On the third ballot, Siri, according to FBI sources, obtained the necessary votes and was elected as Pope Gregory XVII.[8] White smoke poured from the chimney of the chapel to inform the faithful that a new pope had been chosen. The news was announced with joy at 6 P.M. on Vatican radio. The announcer said, "The smoke is white. . . . There is absolutely no doubt. A pope has been elected."[9] . . .
But the new pope failed to appear. Question began to arise whether the smoke was white or gray. To quell such doubts, Monsignor Santaro, secretary of the Conclave of Cardinals, informed the press that the smoke, indeed, had been white and that a new pope had been elected. The waiting continued. By evening Vatican radio announced that the results remained uncertain. On October 27, 1958, the Houston Post headlined: "Cardinals Fail to elect pope in 4 Ballots: Mix-Up in Smoke Signals Cause False Reports."[10]
But the reports had been valid. On the fourth ballot, according to FBI sources, Siri again obtained the necessary votes and was elected supreme pontiff. But the French cardinals annulled the results, claiming that the election would cause widespread riots and the assassination of several prominent bishops behind the Iron Curtain.[11]
The cardinals opted to elect Cardinal Frederico Tedischini as a "transitional pope," but Tedischini was too ill to accept the position.
Finally, on the third day of balloting, Roncalli received the necessary support to become Pope John XXIII. . . .

--Paul L. Williams, The Vatican Exposed
(Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2003), pp. 90-92

Such are the claims of Paul L. Williams, former consultant of the FBI and "seasoned investigate reporter." So far we have been unable to get copies of the cited declassified intelligence documents, and thus we cannot verify whether Williams' claims about what these documents say are accurate. However, the mix-up in smoke signals of the conclave of 1958 is verifiable historical fact, recorded in the newspapers which reported on the conclave day of October 26, 1958, such as the New York Times and the Houston Post.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Malachi Martin in his book "The Keys of This Blood" confirms that Siri was (again?) elected to the office of Pope in 1963 and immediately resigned (under duress?) due to what he referred to as the "little Brutality".

Vatican insider and former Jesuit Fr. Malachi Martin confirmed the election of Siri, though he speaks of the 1963 conclave (the one that produced "Paul VI"), and though Martin did not think Siri was a true Pope. He thinks that Siri refused to accept the election because he was intimidated by the threat of "the little brutality":

It is . . . certain that within the 1963 Conclave voting, Siri had garnered the required number of votes to make him Pope-elect. But the law of Conclave is of iron; for any Conclave election to end with a validly elected pope, the Pope-elect must freely accept his election. . . .

It is certain that Pope-elect Cardinal Siri responded: "Non accepto" (I do not accept). . . . It is also certain that . . . he suggested his refusal was given because of his persuasion that only thus could foreseen possibilities of grave harm be avoided - whether harm to the Church, to his family, to him personally, it is not clear. He did indicate that his decision was made freely and not out of any duress - otherwise any subsequent election in that Conclave would have been invalid. . . .

What [Karol Wojtyla] would not have known . . . was what [Cardinal] Wyszynski could not permissibly tell him: what forced the hand of Siri to refuse the papacy. . . . He [Karol Wojtyla] would not, out of respect for Wyszynski's oath of secrecy, have asked Wyszynski if the rumors of the "little brutality" were accurate. Without any means of establishing it by notarized statements and duly sworn-in eyewitnesses, the rest of the world is still left with the information that the Siri nomination and election were set aside by what has been called the "little brutality."

(Malachi Martin, The Keys of this Blood [New York, NY: Touchstone, 1991], pp. 607-608)

"The Church will be in eclipse..." -Our Lady of La Salette

Is it possible the Catholic Church is in eclipse? Could the Church in Rome be a false Catholic Church to lead the faithful astray?

Is it possible that the Councillar Church in Rome is the Whore of Babalon while the true Church hides in the catacombs ?

posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 04:46 PM
The Siri thesis is wrong because Siri celebrated the new mass. If you want to know the whole truth go to this site

posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 04:53 PM
reply to post by iteration_x

Just because he celebrated the new mass, doesn't proove he was never elected Pope.

Many Traditionalists believe that the new mass is valid although much inferior to the Tridintene Mass. Even Michael Davies argued for this position.

If he was coerced to give up the Papacy, he could also have been coerced into offering the new mass.

posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 03:30 AM
HIS legitimicy only works if the others before him as well were legitimate too, so this is only a problem assuming he is the first false Pope.

There were things they tried to cover up in katekism - that Ive read about - of other popes allegedly worshipping demons and committing atrocities, not that I can say I remember as I am not Catholic anymore.

posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 04:40 AM
Very interesting topic, OP and contributors. First I'd heard of it. Thanks for putting this up.

It appears that the Siri Thesis is a branch of Sedevacantism, which is defined by Wikipedia as follows:

Sedevacantism is the position held by a minority of Traditionalist Catholics who claim that the Papal See has been vacant since either the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958 or Pope John XXIII in 1963.

Sedevacantists believe that Paul VI (1963–1978), John Paul I (1978), John Paul II (1978–2005) and Benedict XVI (since 2005) have been neither true Catholics nor true Popes, by virtue of allegedly having espoused the heresy of Modernism, or of having otherwise denied or contradicted solemnly defined Catholic dogmas. Some of them classify John XXIII (1958–1963) also as a Modernist antipope.


If this is so, the Siri Thesis is one (but not the only) branch under this umbrella. Then there is Traditionalist Catholicism in general, which shares some overlap with the above two ideas.

Hmm...another set of interlocking theological systems to unravel...never gets old, does it?

posted on Jan, 13 2010 @ 02:46 PM
reply to post by silent thunder

Wickipedia actually defines belief in the Siri Thesis as Sedeimpeditism.

It's similar but, not quite the same as Sedevacantism.


Sirianism appears to be a major feature in what has been termed sedeimpeditism, which is distinguished from sedevacantism in that sedeimpeditists do not believe that the Holy See is vacant (sede vacante), but rather that a real legitimate pope exists, but that he has been impeded by outside forces (sede impedita) from taking his office, which is still rightfully his de jure, or "by law".

Because some sedeimpeditists are even today not sedevacantists, some of them postulate that a true pope in the Siri line may still exist somewhere in the world today, and thus they are also distinguished from conclavists, who are sedevacantists who took the next step and decided to elect their own "pope". A number of groups have attempted this step, including the David Bawdan group in Kansas, USA, who "elected" Bawdan as Pope Michael I in 1990, and the (late) Elizabeth Gerstner group, which "elected" a Victor von Pentz as Pope Linus II in 1994.

Sedeimpeditists who accept the Siri Thesis, believe that Giuseppe Siri was the "Pope in Exile" long prophesied by Catholic saints and holy persons (see "Catholic Prophecy" by Yves Dupont, Tan, 1971) during what they view as the current "Eclipse of the Church", as predicted by Our Lady of Lasalette in 1846 (a vision approved by the Church).

posted on Jan, 13 2010 @ 06:51 PM
I saw on the thread you linked to that there was a quote from Malachi Martin. I was wondering if you'd also read "Windswept House",which describes the "Enthronement of the Fallen Archangel Lucifer" that took place June 29,1963.

posted on Jan, 13 2010 @ 07:03 PM
reply to post by On the Edge

Yeah, I have that book.

Fr. Malachi Martin had for a long time maintained that Satanists had infiltrated the Vatican. Just before his death, Fr. Martin said that soon after the installation of Pope Paul VI in 1963, Vatican Satanists clandestinely installed "Lucifer" in a secret ceremony called "The Enthronement of the Fallen Archangel Lucifer". The ceremony was conducted at the St. Paul’s Chapel located within the Vatican. Pope Paul VI later wrote that ‘the smoke of Satan has entered the Sanctuary". Fr. Malachi Martin said that the incidence of Satanic pedophilia and its rites and practices was already documented among certain bishops and priests as widely dispersed as Turin, in Italy, and South Carolina, in the United States. He emphasised, "The systematic organizational links of the network,that had been established between certain clerical homosexual groups and Satanist covens had inordinate power and influence."

Pedophelia and Satanism in the Vatican

It's what got me interested in Traditionalist Catholocism. Boy was that one hell of a rabbit hole.

I get some of my best conspiracy theories from their sorces.

Not that anyone pays much attention to them though.

posted on Jan, 14 2010 @ 02:57 PM
Here are a few vids I found on the Siri Thesis:

Interesting, In this vid, it says Cardinal Tedeschini was elected in the 1958 Conclave. I'll have to look into this more...

Part II

Here's a vid about the enthronement of Satan in the Vatican on the date of Paul VI's coronation:

posted on Jan, 14 2010 @ 04:02 PM
More corroberating evidence of what went on in the 1958 Conclave:

A second testimony in this regard was obtained by Mr. Gary Giuffré during an interview conducted in London, England in July,1993 with Father Jean-Marie Charles-Roux, a former Vatican official and intelligence officer. The aged priest claimed that Joseph Cardinal Siri of Genoa had been elected and also accepted the Papal office, but was then immediately shoved aside, without his actually abdicating. According to Fr. Charles-Roux, a very serious threat was delivered to Siri and the assembled Cardinals through Cardinal Tisserant, the Dean of the Sacred College of Cardinals, shortly after the acceptance of office by the new Pope. Conclave ministers had already begun to burn the ballots with dry straw in the Sistine Chapel stove, sending up white smoke to announce the election of the Pope. Even as the thunderous cheers of the crowd outside could be heard by those inside the conclave, a group of cardinals in league with Tisserant commanded the ministers to change the mixture in the stove to wet straw in order to produce black smoke. When the conclave officials refused the order to send out a false signal that would indicate no electoral results, a group of Cardinals brushed the monsignors aside and began to dump wet straw into the stove. Thereafter, a “shoving match” ensued over control of the stove, and the alternating mixtures of dry and wet straw that were being put into it, caused the smoke to vary from white, to black, to white again, and finally to gray, he said.

* * * * * * *

It might be of interest that Fr. Charles-Roux first came to the attention of those spearheading this investigation when Mrs. Deidre Manifold, author of Fatima and the Great Conspiracy and other books, mentioned to this webmaster that a certain priest would be able to relate what had happened within the 1958 conclave. Mrs. Manifold asserted that he was Fr. Charles-Roux, and that he was actually inside the conclave. (This conversation took place in the early 1990s during the Saturday evening dinner at a weekend conference organized by Holy Family Monastery in Berlin, New Jersey; Deidre. Manifold was an invited speaker, and had traveled all the way from Ireland for the occasion.) However, while granting interviews about this subject on several occasions, Fr. Charles-Roux has never confirmed to date that he was, indeed, inside that conclave.

Realnews 24/7

I haven't been able to come up with any more info on Cardinal Tedeschini, although I did find an interesting tidbit about the 2005 Conclave:

A new pope has supposedly been elected, but we must be cautious: Today, for the second time in two days, crowds gathered in St. Peter's Square believed they saw white smoke emerging from the electoral stovepipe, causing a moment of confusion about whether a new pontiff had actually been elected.

This may have seemed like just another quaint Catholic absurdity. But sedevacantist conspiracy buffs could only look on with bitter recognition, recalling the disputed elections of 1958 and 1963, both of which were marred by white-smoke false alarms.

Did the same thing go on during the election of Pope Benedict XVI?

[edit on 14-1-2010 by FortAnthem]

posted on Jan, 14 2010 @ 04:31 PM
Ok, I found out a little bit about Cardinal Tedeschini.

As a follow up to the above story, the French newsletter, Introibo, ran in 1988 yet another testimony by Paul Scortesco, whose previous remarks, remember, had prompted Remy to ask Siri his all-important questions. Scortesco stated: “In the case of John XXIII (1958) and of Paul VI (1963), there were communications with the outside. It was thus known that there were several ballots in the first conclave which resulted in the election of Cardinal Tedeschini, and in the second, Cardinal Siri.”

Regarding this, let us add that we hear Tedeschini could very well have been elected in ’58, but after Siri’s election, since, being elderly (Siri was but 52), he was seen as a possible “transitional” figure. His refusal to comply paved the way for Roncalli to assume that role.

Eclipse of the Church

And some eyewittness testomony of what happened at the conclaves:

(Minneapolis) -Dec 28- In Today's Catholic World (TCW), presents the written testimony of Mr. Paul Scortesco of what he personally observed at the 1958 and 1963 Conclaves. Mr. Scortesco was known by all to be an excellent Catholic, full of piety and zeal. Shortly after writing down his observations in a *letter (see below) he died under "suspicious conditions" (it is reported he was burned alive in his bed while sleeping).

Scortesco was related to the Italian princes Borghese and Sforza belonging to the "Noble Guard" of the Vatican, abolished by "pope" Paul VI soon after his "election". This guard had the duty to watch over the doors of the conclave, in order that there be no communication with the outside

Mr. Scortesco wrote:

* "During the conclaves of John XXIII (1958) and Paul VI (1963), there were communications (with the out-side). It was thus known that there were several ballots in the earlier conclave which resulted in the election of (Cardinal) Tedeschini and in the latter conclave, Cardinal Siri.
Siri, who had been elected by only one vote, with the balance of the electors pledged to Montini, had the impudence to ask that his election be voted again, so that he could reign with a more important majority. And it was then (while electors were in recess) that Cardinal Tissierant went out to the telephone, and when he returned, Cardinals Lienart, Konig, Dopfner and Tardini changed their votes to Montini (in the balloting which followed). And it was known that these four had been involved with the Freemasons. Therefore, one can affirm without doubt, that Paul VI was elected by that sect."

It's not much but it's something to think about.

posted on Apr, 3 2010 @ 12:55 PM
Hey, FA. Raised a Roman Catholic. Fell out of the Church when my father decided to leave the Church when I was about 9 or 10. Received first communion and then that was about it. Read the Bible and follow my own path of spirituality. Just as Jesus did.

The Church as a source of spirituality, IMO, is a false doctrine. Men are fallible, God or Jesus is not. I have this theory, that any institution placed above man himself, is an abomination. We are the Holy Spirit. My body is my temple and the world is our garden.

Of course this is why my standing on huge government. It is just another instrument of control of the Holy Spirit. The government's of the world are trying to supplant Church's in the control doctrine, IMO. The worship of the community or collective. The worship of Mother Earth. Just another control parameter.

I know you spent a lot of time on this thread so S&F. The Lord is my Shepard, I shall not want. I need nothing but my faith. For I shall reside in heaven, as so shall all that embrace his Glory, with no reservations.

God Bless and Peace.

posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 09:19 PM
Despite people thinking he was a duly elected pope, Siri never encouraged such beliefs. He supported John XXIII and subsequent popes. I do believe something happened in 1958 and Siri probably was elected and then talked out of accepting the position. I don’t think this means, however, that all subsequent popes have been false popes, etc. In reality I think there is a lot deal making and conclaves. This is common deal making and not necessarily grand conspiracy. That said, it is interesting to ponder how different the Catholic Church would be today if Siri had become pope. No Vatican II?

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