UFOs and religion have no connection, none!

First, there is no such thing as a "Christian Bible." There is the jewish bible. That's the only bible of record. The new testament stands on its own and is not considered a "bible." As a matter of fact, walk into any jewish temple and ask to see a copy of the bible. They'll hand you one and you won't find the new testament.

Second, there is no such thing as "Christian" as "christ" was a title, such as "king." It meant "the anointed one" which was applicable to all those anointed for one reason or another, not necessarily connected with religion.

You seriously need to do some REAL study of religions before you post things like this. Somewhere other than some atheist site. The Bible is a Christian book, made up of the Old Testament, which the Jewish people call the Torah and the New Testament. As for "no such thing as Christian"; you might like that to be true, but that doesn't make it true. Christians are people that follow Christ, and no matter what YOU believe about Jesus, your beliefs do not change the reality of what a Christian is, nor cause that term to be invalid.

Be careful there; you keep jumping up and down on that soapbox, ranting like this, and you're gonna fall off.

Originally posted by The Shrike

I challenged your knowledge (enough to quote it) on how you know that it was molten metal, how you know it had "sulfurous smell," how know it ejected pressurized/ionized gas and the other things. You're just repeating something someone else wrote.

These are common observations among various UFO cases. I don't want to go off topic in this thread so please check out my profile and website for more info. IM or email me any questions you have.

reply to post by The Shrike


I was seeking to find common ground, to show you that it is not only possible, but most probable that we all are looking at different pieces of the same puzzle, while many are insisting that our pieces are not attachable to any other pieces. As a race, we truly are "lost" in every sense of the word.

Your post started with religious idealism, even if to take a stance against it. There are those here who obviously will debate their own sides in defense of religion. You have yours, they have theirs, but I came in with a middle ground. I'm not sure how you could say that you'd be banging your head against the wall to discuss this, since a lot of what I wrote was not associated with any ONE particular religion that I'm aware of. There was a fusion of ideas in there from many different beliefs, but I also included science. Did you overlook that?

I suppose the point that I'm trying to make is this....(let's use dogs as an example)....you point at a dog and call it a dog. Someone else points at it and says, "no, clearly that's a German Shepherd". Another person comes in and argues that it's not a German Shepherd, but a mutt of some sort. The owner comes in and gets offended that you called it a dog, when clearly that animal is a member of their family (how dare you call it JUST a dog....after all, he has a name). A scientist walks in and halts the show, insisting everyone is wrong....this is Canis familarus, a carnivorous mammal related to the foxes and wolves and raised in a variety of domestic breeds.

.....everyone is clearly looking at the same thing through different eyes and different levels of understanding. So now, imagine that all those people that I just mentioned, decided to write stories to pass down through hundreds and hundreds of generations to teach their children what a dog was. Now, thousands of years later, hundreds of different versions later, the stories are starting to sound very much like each other, but no one is considering the obvious. So, those people rewrite the stories in the hopes that they will clear up the confusion. Do you see where I'm going with this?

I'm not debating religion or even the existence of God. It's much more simple than that. Who cares what we call it, it's all the same thing. Energy is energy is energy. It exists. There is no argument there. The methods by which our ancient forefathers attempted to teach their children about the complex reality in which they live, are woven into the tapestries of what we now call religion. THEY didn't call it religion....they called it WISDOM! There is so much confusion in the tongue of our own language, but people don't even realize it. RADICALS have made all religions distasteful, because of their gross lack of understanding - their very actions seek to undermine what the stories were initially meant to accomplish....but funny thing, that word "radical". Oddly enough, free radicals in the body are a bad thing as well. There's that "as within, so without" thing again.

So whether you choose to call it a dog, or a German Shepherd, or a mutt, or Brutus, or Canis familarus, makes no difference. It still exists, regardless of what you call it....your "religion" is what name you choose to talk about it with your children. Choosing to state you don't believe in dogs at all doesn't make sense if you at least subscribe to the theories and discoveries of science.

There's nothing to argue about.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by Neo__

Shrike, may I suggest that every time you hear the word 'god' you make an attempt to think of the word 'energy'. You may be surprised how many times the terms fits so well. It's only when people anthropomorphize this universal energy that it doesn't fit. Which is, I suspect, your disdain for religion.

No, sorry, there's no way that I can substitute the word "god" for anything other than the character that has been painted by religion for that is the only definition that goes with it. Energy has nothing to do with religion.

I understand and I believe you're being sincere here. Which is, in my books, more important than whether you are right or wrong. This is where you are at and this is where you should be. Pretending to believe in something just because so and so believes it is dishonest. Or worse, pretending to believe in something just because the church says so, else you'll go to you know where, is selfish and naive. Be what you are is what all the philosophers and teachers have told us in the past.

But remember, nothing stays forever. You are man of many decades, do you see the world the same as you did 20 years ago? 40 years ago? Our awareness changes in time. And so do our beliefs. This is why the Buddha, one of the most wisest people of this world, says to be detached, because as soon as you say "I believe in this" or "I believe in that", you become entrapped and limited to "this" or "that". There are no limits to awareness.

My main complaint and the reason for the thread, which many have forgotten in their replies, is the constant linking on threads about UFOs and religion as if one couldn't exist without the other. Religious expression is a personal mind-set based on beliefs and have nothing to do with people seeing unidentified aerial objects. Those aerial objects don't have gods from humans' religions, they don't have satans, they don't have angels, they don't have devils. What they may contain is unknown but I'll bet the farm whatever they turn out to be won't be connected to religious myths. Especially judeo/christian myths.

It seems like you're turning things around a bit here. I don't see the 'aerial objects' as having any connections to "our" religions myths. It's been "us" who have interpreted the myths and visions as satans and angels.

Whatever it was that our infant humanity envisioned way back when, I would bet that very same farm that it's going to turn out to be something completely different in the end. Some would say it's all fantasy, "our imaginary friend", as I've heard God described. This may be so, but I personally believe that it'll be something much deeper and much more profound.

I do not have a disdain for religious believers 'cause I understand why they're religious. It does bother me, to a certain extent, why adults don't wake up and realize that as religious believers they are not exercising common sense, logic and reason, for once they are exercised religion has no hold.

The humans I do have disdain for because of their religious affiliations are the politicians who use religion as a form of control, restricting needed research, control of what women can do with their bodies, control of what children may be taught in public schools, etc. THEY are our enemies, except to those that support them.

Hmmmmm.... enemies is a pretty harsh word. Blind, ignorant and self-serving, yes, but enemies? You wouldn't call a child an enemy just because they don't see what you can see. Even if they are fully aware that what they do is harmful to others they only do it because they don't know any better. They are still part of the human race, which is each and "every" one of us. I don't see anybody in the human race as a true enemy.








[edit on 16-12-2009 by Neo__]

Originally posted by The Shrike

First, there is no such thing as a "Christian Bible." There is the jewish bible. That's the only bible of record. The new testament stands on its own and is not considered a "bible." As a matter of fact, walk into any jewish temple and ask to see a copy of the bible. They'll hand you one and you won't find the new testament.

Second, there is no such thing as "Christian" as "christ" was a title, such as "king." It meant "the anointed one" which was applicable to all those anointed for one reason or another, not necessarily connected with religion.

Third, the new testament has no historical evidence to back up anything anyone wants to claim about its major characters. It all came later and is accepted to be the construction of humans who were not there when the described events happened. And, please, do not quote Josephus.

Shrike, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this.

The Bible was not a "scripture given from lord", like the Torah was.

The Bible is a collection of people's conjecture and hearsay about what Jesus said and did.

That doesn't undermine the importance of Jesus though. He was still a real person, that was given real miracles that dumbfounded people. He was a real person. The Bible doesn't necessarily tell the real story, it was convened upon 300 years after his death, where they invented the Trinity Doctrine at the Nicene committee.

That doesn't mean that God isn't real though. That simply means that the New Testament cannot be trusted as an unadulterated work, let alone "Scripture given from thine Lord".

The Old Testament (Torah) is the only work in the Bible that can be attributed directly to God. He was the author of that book, but it too has been changed a little.

[edit on 16-12-2009 by seattletruth]

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


You said: "Be careful there; you keep jumping up and down on that soapbox, ranting like this, and you're gonna fall off."

You've been standing quite tall on your own soapbox and, unfortunately, the crowd has left.

I'm never going to fall off for my feet are planted squarely on its surface and if I should fall, I'll land on my blanket made of common sense, reason, and logic. Foreign tems to religious thinkers, don't you agree?

reply to post by Neo__


You said: "But remember, nothing stays forever. You are man of many decades, do you see the world the same as you did 20 years ago? 40 years ago? Our awareness changes in time. And so do our beliefs."

The world, in general, has changed. But humans' minds have not. That's because religion has not lessened. Only when religions are erased from the minds of religious believers will there be progress in the world. But, frankly, that is an impossibility.

Also, and I've tried to get this across but few notice. I do not have a belief system. I do not believe in anything. I either know or I don't know. You will never find in anything that I've written that's available on the Internet the phrase "I believe." I'm not mentally-conditioned. My mind is my own 100% and no one can affect me with anything they say.

reply to post by seattletruth


You said: "The Old Testament (Torah) is the only work in the Bible that can be attributed directly to God. He was the author of that book, but it too has been changed a little."

There is no god. There has never been a god. There will never be a god. Many gods have come and gone. Can you imagine what the world would have been like if we still had the gods of the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, etc.? There would have been wars in the skies with all of that comptetition! Nah, gods are not my cup of tea.

Since the jewish bible is not 100% corect it is therefore an errant publication. Errant enough for respected authors to write volumes about the mistakes it contains. Including an almost 600-page encyclopedia outlining the errors. It contains some historical data, of course, but nothing aside from the historical record can be accepted as factual. As an example, Noah's Ark. Not only could anyone at that time have any knowledge of what was going on in the rest of the planet to declare a world-wide flood, but the bible says that the alleged ark landed on the mountains of Ararat. Yet the fanatical, including a U.S. astronaut, make trips to the mountain presently called Ararat looking for it.

But here I am, getting away from my OP. Okay, no UFOs in the jewish bible!

Shrike, it is interesting that you ignored my post. Am I to understand your concede the point to me now that science and technology was indeed developed in very religious societies for religious reasons? I don't think you have any choice anyway. Show me you are rational by conceding it.

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by Neo__

 

Also, and I've tried to get this across but few notice. I do not have a belief system. I do not believe in anything. I either know or I don't know. You will never find in anything that I've written that's available on the Internet the phrase "I believe." I'm not mentally-conditioned. My mind is my own 100% and no one can affect me with anything they say.

That just couldn't be farther from true. You [yourself] can't prove that humans evolved naturally on earth; you [yourself] can't prove that extraterrestrials didn't visit the planet thousands of years ago and got turned into gods, demons, and angels; you [yourself] can't prove that that the official version of history that's been laid out in academic textbooks and universities worldwide is indeed the real, whole story. Instead, you hand over your decision-making process to authority figures (scientists, historians, archeologists, biologists, professors, governments) and blindly swallow what they present as "official" without the slightest hint of doubt or question, because you've been conditioned to believe that modern science stands for all-things rational & reasonable. Atheists are some of the most deeply brainwashed groups of people that exist on the planet. It doesn't help that the lot of them are arrogant, condescending twats either.

If you truly weren't conditioned, you'd engage in open inquiry & doubt toward any & all views and belief systems, including [namely] your own, and those that sustain the "official," materialistic model of reality that has been accepted as fact for the past few hundred years. The one thing you wouldn't do is boast about how confident and cocksure you are that you got the world all figured out because you're an atheist.











[edit on 17-12-2009 by hermantinkly]

Shrike, your first post hit it right on the mother#ing nail. I'm not capable of understanding how some people make religious connections to UFO's. I just can't comprehend it.

It's the equivalent of saying that fire and water are one in the same even though they are clearly opposites. Religion and UFO's do not mix, simple as that. So to all you religious fanatics trying to make sense of the UFO phenomenon, don't make the mistake of applying religion to something you don't understand. I know it's natural human nature to fear the unknown, or to try and understand something that has no apparent explanation, so obviously most people will try and find something they think can explain it. Religion is usually the answer in this case. I mean, it's been done all throughout ancient history (plagues, storms, other natural phenomenon, etc have all been attributed to God because of the peoples limited understanding at the time) and the only thing that has done is slowed down our overall progress as a civilization and limited the general understanding of Earth and the natural laws that govern it. Take a step back and look at UFO's with an open mind, with a scientific mind, if you're capable, and surely anyone with an average I.Q will realize that UFO's have absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by seattletruth

 

You said: "The Old Testament (Torah) is the only work in the Bible that can be attributed directly to God. He was the author of that book, but it too has been changed a little."

There is no god. There has never been a god. There will never be a god. Many gods have come and gone. Can you imagine what the world would have been like if we still had the gods of the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, etc.? There would have been wars in the skies with all of that comptetition! Nah, gods are not my cup of tea.

Just because you repeat over and over again "there's no God, there's no such thing as God or gods", that doesn't make it true. I was an atheist repeating your same "arguments" (more like dogma) for 25 years. I have played on your side of the game for a long time, you can't say that I'm a product of brainwashing.

It is a product of mental conditioning to believe with 100% positivity that the earth was created by accident, with an iron core that rotates the opposite direction of the crust, creating an ELECTRIC GENERATOR that in turn shields the earth from the solar wind with the magnetosphere, enabling an atmosphere to form on earth.

Do you realize how complex and fragile the systems of the Earth truly are? The jet streams, the water systems, the magnetic systems, the atmosphere, the heat that we get from the sun. For you to claim to KNOW with certainty that this was all by chance seems rather ignorant. That is a BELIEF of yours, not a fact that you can prove, whether you admit it or not.

You then go on to say that ANY concept of God must be false, simply because people worshiped false gods in the past. You mention the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc. Did it ever occur to you that many of the ancient polytheistic civilizations were actually "jump-started" by evil aliens (or fallen angels) that actually TAUGHT the people to worship false gods?

Once started, the practice of idol worship and worshiping many gods was rampant. This might explain why so many messengers were sent by the singular God, to give civilization a chance to realize there is only 1 God.

Yes, you have proven with logic that all of the multiple gods are false, but you have not proven with any argument whatsoever that a monotheistic God cannot exist. If you say "well if there was only 1 God, there wouldn't be so many monotheistic religions today".

Hmm, what if all monotheistic religions were actually STARTED by the same God?? What if he sent messengers / prophets to each nation at different times? We can all agree that all religions have been severely perverted from their original conception. Looking at the differences in today's religion is NOT proof that they weren't all started with a congruent message and idea.

Its humorous that your definition of a "free mind" is one in which you have your mind 100% made up, and nothing anyone can say could change your mind. In the rest of the world, there's some better descriptions of that mindset: closed mindedness and IGNORANCE.




[edit on 17-12-2009 by seattletruth]

reply to post by The Shrike


Folks, I'm done with the thread and the majority of replies have proved my point that there is no connection between UFOs and modern religions which I outlined in one of my replies. Not one of you was able to provide any evidence for your beliefs. But I already knew that. Religion and evidence just don't get along.

You people are good people but you are almost all religious slaves and you have no idea what it is like to enjoy an unencumbered mind. Enjoy your religious trance. Too bad you are wasting a precious experience: life!

Don't bother replying, I'm not going to.

Originally posted by The Shrike
Don't bother replying, I'm not going to.

Finally, the troll has gone back under his bridge.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Religions have nothing to do with UFOs.

And now the gullibles are told that there is a connection between man-made religions and UFOs? UFOs are not man-made; religions are!

NO CONNECTION, folks!

[edit on 14-12-2009 by The Shrike]

I disagree.
Religion has everything to do with UFOs.
Both lack physical evidences.
Both are about beliefs.

Beliefs in UFOs (especially as physical spacecraft piloted by advanced, physical extra-terrestrial entities, hopefully to save our planet from eventual destruction and help us bring in the New Age) are, unfortunately, still no different from religious beliefs.

www.myspace.com...

www.sprezzatura.it...

thought i should post this here.

seemed it would fit.

reply to post by HankMcCoy


It is clear that he could not take the heat of the critical arguments against him. What has been ironic is that his mindset has been religious from the start - a rigid belief that is not open to criticsm, reason or evaulation. I think he has left as a loser. Let God and UFO's bless his soul

I hope nobody gets butthurt for my comments, but he did leave as a dejected loser. He didn't get dejected by the number of people arguing against him, as much as he got dejected by evidence to the contrary.

He said he wants to see evidence, but he isn't willing to look at the evidence everyone in this thread contributed:

The UFO paintings from ancient days, the snips from the Bible, the Space Wars talked about in the Quran. Even the drawings from the Egyptians.

You want to know what the Great Pyramids were built for? It was a power generator. Maybe so they could charge their space ship.

It was built using a sonic pump and some capacitors and stuff, I don't know the specifics.

[edit on 18-12-2009 by seattletruth]

reply to post by The Shrike


You are all wrong. I left because you are all a bunch of dumb anal cavities. If you all got together one could not come up with an iota of inteligence from all of your wasted brains. You think you are hot s__t because you spouted stupidity, it was so evident.

Since you are all wasting your minds your lives are just as wasted. YOU are what's wrong with this planet.

I've taken better s__its than the crap you all spouted.

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by The Shrike

 

You are all wrong. I left because you are all a bunch of dumb anal cavities. If you all got together one could not come up with an iota of inteligence from all of your wasted brains. You think you are hot s__t because you spouted stupidity, it was so evident.

Since you are all wasting your minds your lives are just as wasted. YOU are what's wrong with this planet.

I've taken better s__its than the crap you all spouted.

You need a hug (and a nap), mister. It's past your bedtime.