ATS, LHC and how we are on the verge of new Middle Ages

Ahh yes, I often think about this.

Making science popular has given quite of few people the audacity to argue. It is very easy to spout off facts, your learned knowledge.

But thats what separates intelligence quotent from memory. Its one thing to recite knowledge, its another to understand the function.....to be able to not only know the terms and info, but the mechanics as well.

I dont thinnk you can argue about the Large Hadron Collider, if you do not understand, even at an elementary level, how it functions.

If you can explain particle acceleration, then by all means, claim the LHC will create a wormhole that will transport you through time and space, to Norway of all places, and THEN turn you into a secret CIA agent that will set the future straight.

reply to post by buddhasystem


I agree with your OP.

Most people are not going to take the time to study science unless they have a strong personal interest. It's not even relevant that they do so.

Why?

Because many, many people on ATS (and elsewhere) seem to value drama over truth! THIS is one of the main problems. A prefectly plausible explanation with scientific proof comes up in say the second page of a thread and it might get 1-2 stars and is basically ignored.

While I am quite willing to concede I have no buisness talking about this as I am not a very intelligent person, I have to say I think you are overreacting.

This is not the dawn of some new dark age. People have access to more information now than ever before. If that draws some less than rational types to the table...Well, what can you do? The bottom line is ATS is not representative of most people on this planet. Most people don't care about the LHC, they don't care about stargates, aliens or missile tests. Most people are concerned with getting to the next day. They don't really care what you are doing. I don't say that as an insult to you. I'm quite sure what you do is important to you but to others, no. The average western citizen is watching TV and eating Fritos right now. And it's always been that way. A small group of educated masters and a large group of uneducated workers. If I were you I would be a little excited anyone wants to discuss science at this point even if they do not seem to understand it. Instead of getting upset just explain it. If they refuse to understand it just move on.

Furthermore you can educate everyone thoroughly in science but that does not mean they will draw the same conclusions you do.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by antonia]

reply to post by buddhasystem


The concept of analysis is to reduce the complex and in soluable to simple principles.

If a simple principle applies and holds, no matter fo complexity will change that truth.

At the heart of the LHC debate is a simple principle, that of fundamental civil rights.

It is not a question of whether it is likely or unlikely to create a black hole/ It is not a question of whether it could cure cancer or not. It is not a question of how this might be perceived by other alien worlds etc. All this is irrelevent.

Planning law prohibits me from building a gunpowder factory in the middle of a residential neighbourhood for the same reason why the LHC should be shutdown. It matters not whether it is safe or dangerous, or whether it provides jobs or not.

Likewise, you are not allowed to drink when you drive. It is not a question of whether you think you will be ok or whether your car is in extremely good condition.

In the case of the LHC, the same simple central principle holds true. No matter how safe it is, if it went wrong, it is not the workers at the plant or the backers who would die in a worst case scenario, but everyone, in short people who have nothing to do with it.

The scientists and workers at the LHC have all made conscious decisions of weighting the risk to their lives against the benefit that earnings will bring to their families. I would have no worry, if the danger was simply of large scale loss of life amongst its workers and the folk who choose to buy a property and live in Geneva.
WE, THE PUBLIC, HAVE NOT.

It is a basic moral principle that no-one should put the general public in danger, no matter how unlikely. Since scientific research has, in effect been going on since time immemorial and will do so ad nauseam, if this principle is not adhered to , then the destruction of mankind is a mathematical certainty, as an infinite number of attempts at an event of finite probability, no matter how unlikely, is a certainty.

reply to post by buddhasystem

An authorative word on the LHC straight from a "higher source": Do you want to know the REAL reason why this was built? It was written 2,000 years ago the THE book of truth:
2 Thessalonians ch.2 verse 8-12
Read that and then watch the movie "Solaris" with George Clooney

Connect the dots and sit back and watch history prove these words are trustworthy and true....

reply to post by buddhasystem


Agree with you in almost every point. I'd like to add few thoughts.

Average man have only limited time for education. Everybody going out of college should have habit of continual and systematic self education. Most of schools around globe do not teach this life attitude. Another problem is, that many schools do not teach critical thinking or common sense in some respect. But critical thinking is condition of subsequent self education. Thus most people are not able to properly work with facts given and see buildings where are just compression artefacts ...

Now we are in situation when even scientists with close but not identical specialization do not fully understand each other. Common man can have only very vague view of scientific progress in unity and usually can't fully understand significance of this or that particular discovery. Here is place for good popularization by scientists - not undereducated journalists.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
It's a lot easier to take a shortcut of declaring that the government is hiding some "secret knowledge" and scientists are complicit in that since they are on the govt payroll etc. This way anybody can explain that it is possible to extract energy out of a bucket of water, or open a portal to a parallel universe, or that there is thriving life on Venus etc etc. One of my favorites is the claim that the recent atmospheric phenomenon in Norway is evidence of a secret plot to fake global warming. Just charming...

You confound us with electrickery and mumbo jumbo common sense. You must be a witch!

Burn him at the stake!

Originally posted by truthquest

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by JayinAR
The Government DOES hide information from people.
They do it all the time.

But Sir, this is plain obvious.

However, this doesn't mean that there is massive clandestine science being pursued in unmatched secrecy.

Wasn't the atomic bomb a massive clandestine science pursued in unmatched secrecy?

Yes. And the example of the Manhattan District Project shows the scale of the industrial and logistical footprint that a truly massive clandestine project would take. It is plainly obvious that there exists no such large project today, because we'd know about it. When 5-10% of the GDP goes to something like that (what it would take if there were some secret starfleet of warp drive spacecraft or something) it is obvious that something huge is happening even if isn't clear what. You would find hundreds to thousands of leading PhD scientists and engineers decamping to undisclosed locations. But there isn't anything remotely like that happening. The computer guys are working at Google.

Has government lost its lust for secret doomsday weapons all of a sudden?

It has a lust for secret "magic bullet" secret weapons which accomplish their pressing security task of the day, which is almost always not creating doomsday. Examples: magic land mine and IED locating devices, magic Osama ben Laden locating devices, magic deep underground Iranian nuclear facility neutralizing devices. And there are many contractors promising the Moon, and delivering the Bronx. As usual.

The atom bomb has a serious fallout issue, so no doubt it was back to the drawing board after atomic weapons were ruled illegal. There are probably 100 or 200 projects just as large as HAARP that we simply don't know about because of them being in the black budget. What is the black ops budget any way? $200 billion?

The whole "black" budget of undisclosed military and intelligence projects is more like $30 billion a year. This includes lots of operational work for e.g. Afghanistan. The big expensive money goes to surveillance satellites; optical, infrared and radio frequency. These are very expensive and often don't work right.

I'd agree the LHC is only somewhat different version of many other similar projects that have been done. But when it comes to the black ops budgets of the world there must be plenty of doom to go around in this world.

[edit on 15-12-2009 by mbkennel]

the perfect weapon- television.

[edit on 15-12-2009 by randomname]

Without a complete and correct theory of physics particle colliders will always hold unknown dangers that's just a fact if you don't like it tough.

Second line

reply to post by InertiaZero

if i throw two coconuts at each other im smashing the combined atoms that make up the 2 coconuts. if if can extract just 1 atom of each coconut, i can then put them into the collider, accelerate to the speed of light in opposite directions and smash them together and then see and analyze the results. but instead of coconut atoms they use exotic elements to see what happens. if i can somehow smash 2 whole coconuts together at 186,000 miles a second you'd have to be retarded to think that somehow you'd create a catastrophic event that would destroy the universe, so what would make anything think that 2 nanoscopic atoms of anything bouncing of each other at 186,000 miles a second could destroy the universe. splitting an atom and unleashing the energy stored inside it is a different story but the bonds that hold the atoms that make up everything are so strong that smashing them at the speed of light would not split them. the only thing they managed to split are the atoms found in uranium because the bonds holding them together are weak. if they can find a way to split the bonds that hold a coconut together we'd be f-cked.

Originally posted by randomname
reply to post by InertiaZero

 

if i throw two coconuts at each other im smashing the combined atoms that make up the 2 coconuts. if if can extract just 1 atom of each coconut, i can then put them into the collider, accelerate to the speed of light in opposite directions and smash them together and then see and analyze the results. but instead of coconut atoms they use exotic elements to see what happens. if i can somehow smash 2 whole coconuts together at 186,000 miles a second you'd have to be retarded to think that somehow you'd create a catastrophic event that would destroy the universe, so what would make anything think that 2 nanoscopic atoms of anything bouncing of each other at 186,000 miles a second could destroy the universe. splitting an atom and unleashing the energy stored inside it is a different story but the bonds that hold the atoms that make up everything are so strong that smashing them at the speed of light would not split them. the only thing they managed to split are the atoms found in uranium because the bonds holding them together are weak. if they can find a way to split the bonds that hold a coconut together we'd be f-cked.

So basicly what you are saying is particle colliders are useless and a waste of money I agree.

you know, I am still amazed that so many people blindly believe in science and refuse to admit that it can be corrupted and abused too

recent 'climategate' comes to my mind as an example what the science is today

and I believe it is the tip of the iceberg

science today is filled with so called scientists that place their egoistical thrives for fame and career in front of the pursuit of the scientific truth, and when we analyze who is the largest investor in today's science (military corporation complex and governments) the image of the situation is very clear

nope, we are not on the verge but are still in the middle ages

in the middle age scientists thought the Earth was flat, and everyone that questioned that dogma was either ridiculed, silenced, attacked or killed

same happens today when anyone have the proof that mainstream dogma is wrong (and there is a lot evidence that mainstream Newtonian/Einstein dogma is wrong about many things, but it is aggressively silenced)

there is an excellent statement by Max Planck about the modern science and pursuit of the scientific truth:

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”

as for the LHC, I believe it is a huge waste of money and time because if we accept the new observations in quantum mechanics and theories like holographic universe that comes with quantum mechanics we can see that you can split atoms to infinity and not find any answers

so in my opinion they can build LHC big like Solar system but it will not help to achieve anything

no s&f




[edit on 15-12-2009 by donhuangenaro]

[edit on 15-12-2009 by donhuangenaro]

reply to post by fordrew


I agree with you totally, I too have over 100 channels and I leave it on history channel, I crave more info but find it very difficult to come across. For some reason I hold information better visually rather than Reading. Even the new books I receieve as presents do not go into enpugh detail these days.

I Thank human initiative for creating the Internet, without it I would still be so ignorant on so many subjects it's beyond belief.

Thanks op for a leveling thread

reply to post by JayinAR


yeah, they denied the existence of their stealth f-117a for over a decade...

reply to post by buddhasystem

While I certainly agree that some of the theories put forth are a bit nuts the problem does not live alone with the people and the education.
We (the people) have developed a healthy distrust of science and the gov. It is pretty well deserved. Just try and get some of the data so you can do any research on your own!!
Then we have things like the climategate e-mails and destruction of data. I don't know where you went to school but I was taught destruction of scientific data was worse than ..
I don't see a 'middle ages', I see a dark ages.

Well , a dark age is not coming ,
it's worst,
in fact we're already in a Dark age ....

Technology is not far from magic for most people, how would you call that ?

I find the OP rather arrogant as the LHC is untested and a number of things could go wrong. I am not one of the mad crowd citing quark bombs and black holes however it is dangerous science. Regardless of the reassurances by the scientists, they are messing with the very fabric of our universe to answer questions that I believe do not need answered. There is no possible good that will come of this, they find the higgs bosson, fine what then, think of what the money that has been pumped into this thing could have done. All this is, is arrogant egotistical physicists doing as they like and laughing at anyone that raises concern.

reply to post by buddhasystem

It makes me smile how the pragmatic scientific mind seems to always label religion as a dogma without recognizing the dogma within its own ranks. The honest truth is that science has very little understanding regarding the subatomic world and this is self evident by virtue of the fact they have built a multibillion dollar machine so as to gain a better understanding.

First I would like to state that I am not a scientist and probably fall into the category of an average educated layman trying to apply a little logic. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am trying to understand.

It would seem that the common argument validating the safety of smashing high energy particles together at the speed of light is, that this happens all the time in space.

Would I be correct in saying that the source of the most energetic particles in our solar system would be emanating from the sun and that these particles will be radiating in all directions away from the sun.

This being the case, even if particles from the sun collided, the collision would be very low impact because they are all traveling in the same speed and direction as each other.

Particles that could collide with those from the sun would have traveled at least 41.5 trillion klms away from Alpha Centauri.

From my understanding particles lose energy over time and distance. This being the case then the only place a collision can occur at these same energies as those traveling through the LHC would be in a binary star system or more dense area of our galaxy.

Now as we can't see, witness or measure in any great detail what happens when those particles collide at these great distances how can you be so sure that energies released would not be cataclysmic enough to at wipe out the planet?

[edit on 15-12-2009 by kennyb72]

I dont see how you can say we are on the verge of a new middle age..

Just because they build a big atom smasher, dont really mean jack..

To eqaute mans progress via science to his level of understanding of why he is applying it is!

We let kids starv and strive to understand the universe?

is it not better to unerstands ones self befor applying method to what is currently madness?

the LHC will not find the higgs partical and that my friend is a fact.


Why try to find something that is already here? That was the flaw in the original equation to begin with.

They left out YOU.