People implicated in 9/11

Arguments used against inside job theory

1) Too many people would have to be in on it

2) the same people who are making a mess of Iraq were never so clever or devious that they could stage a complex assault on two narrow towers of steel and glass

3) Planes flew into buildings, buildings came down.

4) the truth movement has not show the results of a fullfletched subpoena powered criminal investigation of 911 that showed evidence of inside job, so there is no reason to allow a subpoena powered criminal investigation of 911

[edit on 14-12-2009 by conar]

I don't think anyone mentioned the Secret Service.

They were at the hub of communications on 9/11 and were very likely in on this atrocity, too, as they were in on JFK's assassination. (I'm thinking of the famous Secret Service Stand Down video that you can see on YouTube, where they pull the rear bumper agents off the presidential limo.)


[edit on 14-12-2009 by ipsedixit]

reply to post by ipsedixit



Charlie Sheen did mention this.

He said the secret service would of removed Bush from that classroom "as if he were on fire."

So... there was a reason why they needed Bush to be in that classroom while the second tower got hit, I'm not sure why other than the fact than it was an excuse (him being in Florida) for Dick Cheaney to run the show in Washington DC.

Dick Cheaney even said the Secret Service took him to a secure location after the scond plane hit... Why not Bush?

And I'm sorry.... But no way in hell does the President go into the class room while the WTC is on fire... even if he thought it was a small plane.

Could you imagine doing this if you were the President? You see the WTC on fire and then you decide that reading with the children was still important?

Originally posted by Doomsday 2029
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

Charlie Sheen did mention this.

So what? What does he know about anything?

He said the secret service would of removed Bush from that classroom "as if he were on fire."

Why?

But no way in hell does the President go into the class room while the WTC is on fire... even if he thought it was a small plane.

So everytime a building is on fire, or a car or plane crashes the president gets taken away by the secret service.... you do realise how silly that is

Could you imagine doing this if you were the President? You see the WTC on fire and then you decide that reading with the children was still important?

So exactly what should the president do? Help the firemen put out the fire? Run around saying "Dont Panic, Dont Panic??

Originally posted by ReAlIzAtIoN
Those are all good points, not necessarily that I agree or disagree with everything stated here.

But, if our government lied to us about the air on 9/11... now this makes me ponder, what else could they have fabricated? You remember how after the towers fell, the government let everyone know that it was safe to go and dig through the rubble. Countless people just did that, and some of the ended up with respiratory issues, and some even died. The question is: WHAT ELSE DID THE GOVERNMENT LIE ABOUT?

What a perfect screen name you have. This short explained my exact reasoning behind why I started to research conspiracy theories in the first place. Something clicked in me and I thought the same exact thing as you. Is it possible that our government lies to us.

That line of thinking seemed to open Pandora's Box of things in history that I felt I needed to reinvestigate.

I am really glad I chose to do my own fact searching.

reply to post by Doomsday 2029


They remained at the school so Bush could line out the official story in a short speech at the school!

9:29 a.m. September 11, 2001: President Bush Makes a Scheduled Speech
www.historycommons.org...

Still inside Booker Elementary School, President Bush gives a brief speech in front of about 200 students, plus many teachers and reporters.

He says, “Today we’ve had a national tragedy. Two airplanes have crashed into the World Trade Center in an apparent terrorist attack on our country.

I have spoken to the vice president, the govenor of New York, and the director of the FBI, and I have ordered the full resources of the federal government to help the victims and the families, and conduct a full scale investigation to hunt down and find those folks who comitted this act.

Terrorism against our nation will not stand.”

The talk occurs at exactly the time and place stated in his publicly announced advance schedule —making Bush a possible terrorist target.

This is the last most Americans will see of Bush until the evening.



There, the official story is in place, now Bush can go command his generals in the attack, and not jeopardize the 200 people at the school anymore.

Is it true what he said?
When did he find time to write that speech, and talk to vice president, director of FBI, and govenor of NY, and give those orders?


8:46 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 11, carrying 92 people from Boston to Los Angeles, crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center.

9:02 a.m: United Airlines Flight 175, carrying 65 people from Boston to Los Angeles, crashes into south tower of the World Trade Center.

(9:16 a.m.-9:29 a.m.) September 11, 2001: President Bush Works on Speech with Staff; Makes No Decisions
www.historycommons.org...

White House adviser Karl Rove, who is also in the holding room, later tells NBC News that Bush is unable to reach Cheney because the vice president is being moved from his office to the White House bunker at this time.

The president speaks with New York Governor George Pataki and FBI Director Robert Mueller. Bush learns from Mueller that the planes that hit the WTC were commercial American aircraft, and at least one of them had apparently been hijacked after leaving Boston.

Bush later claims he makes no major decisions in response to the crisis until after Air Force One takes off at around 9:55 a.m

9:37 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 77, carrying 64 people from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the west side of the Pentagon.

9:50 a.m.: 1 World Trade Center – the south tower – collapses.

10:29 a.m.: 2 World Trade Center – the north tower – collapses.

12:36 p.m.: Bush again goes on TV to express the nation's resolve to defend against terrorism. It Airs about 30 Minutes Later


5:25 p.m.: 7 World Trade Center collapses.

8:30 p.m.: Bush gives 3rd and final speech, Declares Bush Doctrine



Here is complete timeline of Bush's actions on 911
www.historycommons.org.../11=bush

[edit on 15-12-2009 by conar]

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
I've decided to make a list of people who must be "in" on the 9/11 inside job and subsequent cover up. Feel free to add to it.

I'm going to include individuals who may not have known what they were doing at the time - "gee, I wonder why they want us to wire up the WTC with bombs" - but must now surely know that their unwitting actions helped cause the deaths of thousands.


The Bush administration at the White House - the top brass at least.

The people who flew the planes

Those who faked the phone calls from the planes and the people who trained them and recorded and disemminated the information

Heads of the major news media, possibly extending down through the organisation, not sure to what level

NORAD

FBI agents

NTSB

Numbers of people in the USAF

Significant Wall Street players who speculated with, handled and placed put options

The demolition teams that wired the towers

The scientists who designed the super thermite that was used ("That could only be our special thermite Bob! And they told us they were only going to use it for good!")

Maintenance workers at the WTC told to look the other way while bldgs were rigged

Significant numbers of people in the CIA

Individuals within the Port Authority

At least some members of the police and fire depts of NY (suddenly gone very quiet on the explosions and truck bombs)

Almost all investigators at NIST

Investigators who pieced together eyewitness reports at the Pentagon (would have to ignore so much relevant testimony, leave out stuff about flyover etc)

Spooks at the Pentagon organising and intimidating eyewitnesses

Pentagon security

The teams who faked the aeroplane path to the Pentagon, hacked the lightpoles, #ed up England's taxi, and placed the fake debris on the lawn

The bomb planters who rigged the Pentagon OR the people who organised whatever it was that hit it, the guys who launched the missile, say, or dispatched the drone

You forgot:

Every American (we voted for these guys repeatedly)
Every Israeli (Same thing)
Every Iraqi (For supporting/not getting rid of Saddam)

Actually, let's blame: EVERYONE.

What did you do to prevent 9/11?

I bet you thought something like this would happen or you chose to remain ignorant...either way, this is your fault...

ALL OF YOU

Originally posted by Lillydale
reply to post by TrickoftheShade

 

I guess instead of proving anything about the OS is true, it is just easier to make fanciful claims to try and make the truth movement look nuttier than it is.


Good show. Everyone knows that when you have a solid and obviously true story, the best way to prove it is to avoid ever proving it and just make crazy claims about the other side.

You sure convinced me the OS is true now.

Point out the fanciful claims please. And the crazy ones.

I can provide direct quotes from this website - and from posters very much aligned to the "Truth" Movement - which endorse every single one of the above being involved.

You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by TrickoftheShade

 

How can you prove how many people would have had to know anything in any given agency, and the maximum knowledge they each would have had to have known?

With absolute accuracy? Obviously you can't. But that isn't the same as acknowledging that significant numbers of people would have to know.

For example, if you accept the TM model, then there must be covert groups intimidating large numbers of witnesses to the extent that not a single one has come forward. They are so terrified that they won't even mention that they've been got at.

Now, who runs that group? Is it the secret service? How many of them are there? Are they part of the traditional security service, in which case their immediate superior would have to know, or at least be intimidated himself as after 8 years of them jetting about on covert operations he would likely be suspecting something. They would need a support structure - they have to tender expenses, book flights, equip themselves, get paid. If you're organising such an operation you have to be certain that no one within that support structure suspects, or that if they do they too are brought in or intimidated.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Point out the fanciful claims please. And the crazy ones.

All of them and I will not pull quotes just to show you something you can scroll to see. All of them.

I can provide direct quotes from this website - and from posters very much aligned to the "Truth" Movement - which endorse every single one of the above being involved.

I am sure you can provide direct quotes from this website that support just about any crazy idea you want. Seen all these mining facilities on Mars yet? I know you think that any person that says anything against the OS is automatically part of some homegenous truth movement but it just does not work that way. Just because someone yells space lazers, does not mean that the truth movement endorses that idea. You are confusing a label with individuals. There is no one solid truth movement and we sure as hell do not all believe the same things. Personally, I do not buy the OS. I also do not buy your premise. Provide all the quotes you like. I am pretty sure I can quote people claiming they are a werewolf from this site as well but I doubt that means all humans believe they are werewolves.

You can't have it both ways.

I am not even trying to. I have noticed though the huge rush by OSers to try and pull these kinds of stunts. You all have given up pushing your story as much and have started just trying to malign the character of the so called truth movement. Is that how people with the truth behind them do it? Give up on the truth and just attack their opponents?

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Point out the fanciful claims please. And the crazy ones.

All of them and I will not pull quotes just to show you something you can scroll to see. All of them.

All of them?

So no one I've mentioned is involved in any cover up? I don't understand. Surely for your "inside job" to have occurred someone has to be on the inside?

I am sure you can provide direct quotes from this website that support just about any crazy idea you want. Seen all these mining facilities on Mars yet? I know you think that any person that says anything against the OS is automatically part of some homegenous truth movement but it just does not work that way. Just because someone yells space lazers, does not mean that the truth movement endorses that idea.

But the Truth Movement does endorse certain ideas. And those ideas necessarily require the clandestine involvement of certain individuals within government, security and professional groups. Would you at least acknowledge that?

And I purposely left out the NPT and laser stuff, as you will have noticed.

You can't have it both ways.

I am not even trying to. I have noticed though the huge rush by OSers to try and pull these kinds of stunts. You all have given up pushing your story as much and have started just trying to malign the character of the so called truth movement. Is that how people with the truth behind them do it? Give up on the truth and just attack their opponents?

I'm not doing that at all. If you see this thread as a personal attack then I'm afraid you're mistaken to the point of paranoia. It's a genuine attempt to interrogate which agencies (and to what extent) would need to be involved to pull off a cover up.

In this case, because it threatens your worldview, you are huffing and puffing with no substance and attempting to label it as some kind of character assassination. That won't wash.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade


All of them?

So no one I've mentioned is involved in any cover up? I don't understand. Surely for your "inside job" to have occurred someone has to be on the inside?

Yes, all of them. You seem to be confusing this or that. You claim that thousands were in on it is fanciful. That does not mean I believe no one was in on it.

But the Truth Movement does endorse certain ideas. And those ideas necessarily require the clandestine involvement of certain individuals within government, security and professional groups. Would you at least acknowledge that?

And I purposely left out the NPT and laser stuff, as you will have noticed.

Want a cookie? Who is this truth movement, exactly? CIT? P4T? Who makes it up? Who decides which theories to go with? I really do not know who it is you are referencing because I am not part of any movement and I do not know anyone that is.

I'm not doing that at all. If you see this thread as a personal attack then I'm afraid you're mistaken to the point of paranoia. It's a genuine attempt to interrogate which agencies (and to what extent) would need to be involved to pull off a cover up.

In this case, because it threatens your worldview, you are huffing and puffing with no substance and attempting to label it as some kind of character assassination. That won't wash.

Huffing and puffing? I am sorry what is it you offered to prove the OS again?

Originally posted by Lillydale


Yes, all of them. You seem to be confusing this or that. You claim that thousands were in on it is fanciful. That does not mean I believe no one was in on it.

So which ones are wrong?

Who is this truth movement, exactly? CIT? P4T? Who makes it up? Who decides which theories to go with? I really do not know who it is you are referencing because I am not part of any movement and I do not know anyone that is.

Who decides what's in the "Official Story"?

Huffing and puffing? I am sorry what is it you offered to prove the OS again?

You think there's no Truth Movement but that there is an "Official Story"?

Can you explain why one exists and the other doesn't? Why I must sign up for some mythical OS but you have no responsibility whatsoever for your claims?

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by Lillydale

Who is this truth movement, exactly? CIT? P4T? Who makes it up? Who decides which theories to go with? I really do not know who it is you are referencing because I am not part of any movement and I do not know anyone that is.

Who decides what's in the "Official Story"?

Simple. The government. Sometimes it also refers to the media, which is often called the 4th estate, the 4th "branch" of government.

So that means...

Kean Commission Report
FEMA Report
NIST Report

All commissioned by the federal government, thus "officially" endorsed.

Hope that clears that up. No one else had access to physical evidence, subpoena power, etc., and had to go off what little these three sources provided.


"Truthers" are just a bunch of unrelated civilians. There is no formal organization, there are only people like you calling us all the same name as if we're the same person, when we demonstrate over and over and over and over again that we are all individuals here with our own minds and opinions.

[edit on 15-12-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade


Who decides what's in the "Official Story"?

Aside from the very astute answer given above. I like to consider the story that was told to us on television by the president, vice president, and secretary of defense part of the official story. See, they are government officials so...ya see how that works.

Who exactly gave you the official truth statement? Where is the official truth movement representative or reports? I think you can see why you must accept one and not the other now. Let me know if you still need help.

[edit on 12/15/09 by Lillydale]

So because you can't make your minds up and have a load of wacky friends who think that lasers from space destroyed the WTC you have no responsibility to provide any evidence for your claims beyond picking holes in a "story" that you acknowledge comes from myriad sources.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
So because you can't make your minds up and have a load of wacky friends who think that lasers from space destroyed the WTC you have no responsibility to provide any evidence for your claims beyond picking holes in a "story" that you acknowledge comes from myriad sources.

You got that exactly right, it is a very good description of the "truther" movement. I especially love the truther story about the UFO watching it all

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
So because you can't make your minds up and have a load of wacky friends who think that lasers from space destroyed the WTC you have no responsibility to provide any evidence for your claims beyond picking holes in a "story" that you acknowledge comes from myriad sources.

You will either have to remind me when I ever made any claim about lasers from space destroying the buildings or admit you are wrong. There are crazy people on the OS side as well but that is not a reflection of you all as some sort of crazy group.

So either show me my quotes or admit you are wrong.

If you read what I wrote I didn't suggest that you thought there were any space lasers.

Look, dealing with the "OS" as a monolithic whole just isn't a reflection of reality, just as dealing with the TM as a whole isn't. Mainstream news sources disagree about details of what happened on 9/11.

Even bsbray above acknowledges that his notion of the "OS" sometimes includes the media and sometimes doesn't, and that it is composited form a wide variety of sources. If it can be comprised of different things at different times then it's hardly a single unchanging entity.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
Even bsbray above acknowledges that his notion of the "OS" sometimes includes the media and sometimes doesn't, and that it is composited form a wide variety of sources. If it can be comprised of different things at different times then it's hardly a single unchanging entity.

If you really believe in this, then you should also never use the word "truther" again towards people who do not call themselves "truthers," or else you are just a big steaming pile of hypocrite.