Tea party patriots wants mandatory Christmas in schools

Purely for sake of understanding... I base that only on what I encounter from the bulk of people as to WHY SOME disdain the holiday... No assumptions of YOUR reasoning... I ask for Understanding because I have a feeling you simply have your own way of thinking on the subject and I will respect it.

But I am curious to the reasoning

And also in answer to the question, if I was one fo three Caucasian kids in a school in China Town why I would have any right to be offended when they made those dragons and decorated the neighborhood...and they get REALLY Loud and Crazy about it's the only thing I can think of in comparison to Xmas...

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
Okay... I shouldn't make any assumptions FAIR and FAIR

Thanks.

Would you Attend a Chinese New Year celebration?

Probably not. I don't celebrate any holidays. I celebrate every day. I'm kind of weird (I know), but my husband and I don't see any reason to have "special days" that commemorate things that happened in the past. It's very unusual for us to remember our anniversary on the day and say, "Oh, yeah! Happy Anniversary"! Same with birthdays. We're NOT traditionalist.

Why would you not attend a Christmas Party this year if invited?

Mostly because I don't like people very much, but I hate parties and crowds. I've done my share of that type of thing in my life and I'd rather do just about anything than go to some strange place and see a bunch of strange people for a reason that I don't even believe in.

What does a festivity and celebration en mass of a culture stand to take away from you if you participate?

Nothing.

Is this somehow denigrating your own beliefs to Share in a celebratory time with the bulk of the people you live around?

Not at all...

I absolutely believe you have the right to not participate if you choose, I don't think anyone should be FORCED to participate, I simply find it... honestly somewhat, Intellectually elitist... and likewise alienating to others...

Intellectually elitist? OK. So much for giving up the assumptions. If others fell alienated because of my lack of participation, that's their right. My family and friends still love me even though we don't celebrate Christmas with them. It took them a while to adjust, but they get it now.

If I was for example to go over the reservation tomorrow ...
If I went to Mecca on Ramadan ...
On St Patrick Day I will drink the Green Beer...
For Cinco De mayo I gladly go and strike a Pinata...

I have done that (well, most of it). And I have NO problem with people doing any of it. It's not that I don't want to do Christmas because I have a problem with it or it's against my beliefs or anything negative. It's just not something I do.

Why, why not participate in Christmas, when 90% of the Nation will be Celebrating, when most people... Black, White Jewish gentile.... are getting together and opening presents and speaking GOOD WORDS and remembering the Bright Side of their culture...

Why sit there and focus on what is wrong during such a time?

Just because I don't get a tree, decorate my house, buy obligatory presents and get together with my family doesn't mean that I "sit there and focus on what is wrong". (I thought you were going to give up the assumptions...) Christmas day is just another day for us. We might have a good meal, just because it's an excuse to cook something out of the ordinary, but I have celebrated nearly 50 Christmases. I get it. I don't need to do it any more. It's more of a hassle than it's worth, to tell you the truth.

Why not just enjoy it?

I DO enjoy it just as I enjoy every day. (Assumptions...)

But those few times a year when people come to their senses and CELEBRATE life celebrate the GOOD their cultures has done... why sit on a Moral high horse and think of the bad? Why refuse to break bread with them and share in the experience?

I'm not thinking of the bad! I break bread with people on days that aren't Christmas. I buy people presents throughout the year. I send cards and do thoughtful things all the time. Why should I do it only on that particular day?

If I said to you right now and we were close enough by locale... lets forget that we have polar opposite political views, lets put aside politics... this is MY Holiday, I am having food and people over, we are going to sing songs, we are going to give gifts this ONE WEEK...

Why would you refuse the invitation?

The truth is, if I knew you and were friends with you, I probably would go. But I don't. So I wouldn't. Nothing against you or your wish to celebrate "Your Holiday". I hope you have a wonderful time! Happy Holiday!

Let me ask you this. What if I said that we were going to go into the woods with drums, get naked, smear mud on our bodies and have a drumming/chanting circle out in the wilderness and invited you to join us... Not that we do that sort of thing, but Christmas celebrations are something of my past and I'm just not interested anymore. I wish that was OK with people...

reply to post by Southern Guardian


When taxpayers foot the bill for education you will always get unreasonable demands. That would include prayer rooms for Muslims, Christmas carols, sex education and the list goes on in all directions. Government run education at its heart is there to keep young people out of the job market. And you thought the purpose was to educate the citizenry?

If you haven't noticed the years needed to graduate college have increased. Four year degrees commonly take five now. Students are encouraged to continue into graduate and post graduate studies. Why? There are fewer jobs and too many entering the job market. Those currently holding high paying positions are hesitant to give them up. And now we have 10% unemployment for good measure.

So, while there is education going on, education that in by-gone eras was gathered during an apprenticeship, what we have now is mostly glorified baby sitting. Privatize education. Get specifically what you want your children to have, what you alone pay for.

These people are not sending their kids to private schools and complaining. If they had their tax dollars back they could likely consider a private school. They are simply trying to get what they perceive as their money's worth out of the schools they are paying for.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


You know...

More than rational reasons, I am a very people person, loosing those things would make me suffer but i can understand your POV

and lol

Btw... I did clear above that I was giving general reasons i'm given by people not directing that those were yours... Above top of page, so i did make that clear, probably just didn't see it before the post

All respect

Some people are quiet and more reserved and not traditional etc...

Good rational reasons to not care for the whole hooplah

But Can I ask and this isn't about debate?

Are the rest of us Revelers really that annoying to warrant Walmart and the rest not being allowed to use the Term Christmas or to ban Carolers?

I don't think from your response your answer will be Yes to that...

But curious...

I mentioned earlier how in my old neighborhood The Orthodox use an Air Raid Siren to Alert everybody (and apparently God too lol) to the fact that the Sabbath has come...

I HATE that

First time I heard it was after 9-11 and it scared the crap out of me...

But honestly, the thought never once crossed my mind... to go tell them to stop, it just was, some cultural oddity that I guess i'd have to put up with ...

There are just allot of Orthodox that moved in... I don't feel I would have had the right...

My annoyance...

I guess it just comes down to...I think some people have allot of nerve trying to control things like xmas cards in class or carolers... when in reality Allot... in fairness of people who take that side not ALL...simply are more obnoxious 24/7

Take for example, Orthodox Jews... they can get their drivers card given to them privately in Brooklyn because they claim antisemitism...

So growing up about once a year some Orthodox Lady would plow into a bunch or Black kids and there would be this cockamamie riot over it because she didn't know how to drive AT ALL lol...people running down the street hitting each other in the face... screaming spraying mace... throwing bottles like it's the West Bank

I'm just confounded by how... all these things are catered to despite even causing harm... and i'm picking on my own by example because of the race screamers in here...

But Xmas becomes such a big deal

NY... half closes the city for the Puerto Rican day Parade, the gay Pride Parade, The St patty's parade... Chinese New Year you can loose an Eye, 4th of July it sounds like Beirut outside.. Halloween, a Nightmare of shaving cream Eggs and Fights (I loved that actually)

But Xmas is a target...

Blows my Mind... No One has Ever hit me in the Face with a Coconut Drink for no reason like the Puerto Rican day parade lol on Christmas...

Carolers are fairly well behaved...

They don't get half naked and show their genitals to traumatized kids like the NY gay pride Parade (yeah I had to see the 500 Man Fisting party T-shirts growing up)

Just wigs me out how in all of this and please not attacking anyone, Christmas became a Target as offensive

reply to post by Hemisphere


Well...

Utter Logic OMG

Being able to afford private schools instead of Nationalized education could solve allot...

Personally with 1.5 trillion going to defense against... nothing but those dang Kanucks on our border...

I really fail to see a problem with some major subsidies for Private schools and tuition for families...

This is why I can't stand the constant Nationalization of everything, different academic programs and standards (this whole debate aside) as I see it can only encourage the growth of New methods of teaching... More diversity, potentially a system could develop that WORKS

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


BH, my wife and I continue to celebrate shared holidays but I completely understand your "been there, done that". Your perspective, although I don't share it, is appreciated. As for me, I would celebrate the opening of a cold beer and we dance 'round the living room at the drop of a hat. Did I say that out loud?

reply to post by mopusvindictus

Mopus my friend, I envy your enthusiasm and your good heart. At my core I'm a "people person" too. My age and occupation has sucked some of that from me and my wife thankfully kicks me back into play from time to time.

You thrive near the big city and those same traits are necessary for survival. I know, I've worked in NYC and we still go in often. You do experience interesting and at times repulsive things there but the condensed diversity is certainly the enticement for me. Despite your complaints I suspect you feel richer for the diversity you've experienced. The world outside your front door.

Addressing the two issues, education and celebration in one post is "above my pay scale" but that wont stop me. Let me just say that I think maintaining diversity in how people are educated and how people are allowed to celebrate is key to keeping our society progressing and vital.

Genetic diversity makes any population better able to adapt to a changing world. I think the same holds true for educational diversity. For instance we now have large segments of our population out of work and many with the same job skills and the jobs that require those skills are not returning. Our best hope is that someone will innovate and where will that come from when the brightest people have nearly the same education? Yes, my view is extremely simplistic but I can think and think outside the lines and I don't attribute any of that to public education.

Celebration? I doubt all of us will ever share all of the same joys in life. Yet I think all should be allowed to celebrate and in the least given the opportunity to celebrate for the mental health of all. Mopus, this brings me back to NYC where you can witness thousands celebrating in a parade as you've described as well as a single person singing or dancing on a street corner. Some don’t even solicit tips for these "celebrations". (In case you were wondering, we've met the Naked Cowboy and my wife posed for a picture with him. Makes a heck of a Christmas card. And yes he solicits! I would pose nearly naked in Times Square but I don't want to cause gridlock. I'm good that way.)

The key appears to be respect for those not participating. That appears to be at the heart of this thread. The intersection of respect for those not participating in our celebrations at least on the surface. What I think lies beneath for these specific few tea party participants is a fear of losing one's culture while other cultures are perceived as being catered to. I think this goes beyond Jingle Bells or Silent Night at a public school winter concert. That's just my take and presumption.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by redhead57
I just shake my head when this is brought up. I mean all this over Christmas?

Christmas wouldnt be such a big deal if the conservative "christians" would cut dumping it down our throats forcefully.

Dude, calm down. If anyone is dumping it down our throats, it's the whole Hollywood and Madison Avenue industry built up around it. "Conserv Christians" behind all this?? Really? And last time I checked, the retail sector claims to depend on it. The kids in public schools used to be able to sing Christmas carols. In many if not most public schools today, the very word Christmas is prohibited, as well as the singing of any traditional songs. That's kinda sad, no? I recall having a lot of fun in school at Christmas. Let's not make the kids as uptight as we have become. Doubt anyone is converted by Christmas carols.

reply to post by pumpkinorange


Kids are welcome to sing christmas carols, draw christmas trees or pretend to be santa for all I care. The teachers can evens have a "christmas tree" drawing contest, but the minute anything becomes mandatory or a requirement thats when it becomes an invasion on the rights of the tax payer. This isnt about somebody having the holiday spirit, this is about imposing what is a religious period of the year and thats my point.

Jeremiah 10:1-10


*related to this post*


Some moght read this scripture and go into deep denial...


Others will read this scripture and for the first time realize there is much to read and learn... open your heart and open your eyes...


Either way I hope it causes you to read.

reply to post by Hemisphere


Actually I visit back in NYC as often as possible but I have slowly been moving away from civilization for many years now...

I currently sit in a shack, with 400 Miles of woods right out the back door and the pleasure of having 10 mb/s anyway, small airport, university and good hospital within 10 min...then NUTHIN but the Elk lol

I love it where I am and that's why this topic can get under my skin, even here they would ATTEMPT to change things to reflect policies that make Zero sense for where I am and who I am around.

If there are 100 other Jews here i'd say it's allot... I have met ONE so far aside from myself, the Only Muslims at all are students and they all seem to be here for the cheap Booze and white women... which they can't get at home, Not exactly a Ramadan in the making

And here snowbound, 200 miles from the nearest city... and the closest other than that is 400 Miles min

The Walmart can't use the term Christmas...

For who ME? Can someone forward my feelings to them since I came up on the demographic and they did all this for ME lol... Me and the OTHER Jewish Guy (who is moving btw :lol can't take the cold...

You could film Polar express 2 outside right now... And it's probably one of the best places to be for Christmas feel in the world, and these giant corporate policies and govt intrusions are really Annoying as hell!

reply to post by mopusvindictus


What no Christmas? Oy gevalt!

Sorry to hear of your plight MV. There you are in the snowy wilderness, in all your Jewish splendor and no Christmas! You sir are a holiday army of one. Damn that MallWart errrrrr... WalMart! You'll have to take winter festivities into your own hands. Maybe snowshoe down to that WalMart and purchase an Orthodox Air Raid Siren. You can usher in Chanukah just like the old days for yourself and the elk. Is that Kosher? We've got to find you a tea party. Now that would make thread material!

I for one choose to celebrate the true origins of Christmas. I worship the sun as it is crucified on the cross of the zodiac.

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
But Can I ask and this isn't about debate?

Are the rest of us Revelers really that annoying to warrant Walmart and the rest not being allowed to use the Term Christmas or to ban Carolers?

To me? No. But WalMart is a business and has a bottom line. If they wish to run their business in a way that will help to put out a message of inclusion, then I fully understand them restricting what their employees say to the customers. But my WalMart employees say "Merry Christmas". There may be one store that restricts it, and makes the news, but it's a huge mistake and generalization to apply that to WalMart as a corporation.

You make a big deal out of nothing. I think that happened like 4 years ago. Get over it. They have.

Same with carolers. It's possible that someone is offended by them, just as you clearly are by gay parades. It's all well and good when it's something that YOU are offended by to go after it with the law, but if someone else is offended, then they should just deal with it, right? You've got to learn to put the shoe on the other foot and stop making excuses as to why it's OK for YOU to be offended, but not OK for someone else to be so. My opinion.

[edit on 16-12-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I am not going to read the whole thread. This is response to the OP.

Sucks doesn't . . . now you are seeing what has been done to Christians for awhile now.

People should have the right to celebrate as they want. If they do not want to celebrate Christmas with the rest of the class, go to the Library and read a book until the activities are over.

If one does not want to pray . . . don't pray, but don't force no prayer on those who want to pray.

Payback is a bitch . . . huh.

Why should a public school funded by the tax payer be forced to favour a certain religion?

Easy. Because schools should have to do whatever the tax payers are telling them to do because they are the ones who are forced to pay for it. Whoever is paying for something should have full control over what they are paying for. If you are forced to pay for an education, a very reasonable demand is that the education is exactly as specified by the person paying.

The only limitation on what tax money can be used for should be causing harm. As long as tax money is not causing harm to others, it is being used ethically, and should therefore be allowed.

Again this type of excuse.

If I'm an atheist reading a post entitled "God sucks". And then the first quote designed to support the argument includes the phrase "God blows" I'd have to conclude its fautly post and I'd make it a point to say so. Then I'd probably have you chime in saying I'm "just making excuses for Christianity" even if I hated them and my goal in life was to eliminate them. That's all I've done here... pointed out a fault. Specifically, the title talks about "mandatory" Christmas caroling, but the very first sentence says the carols are "opportunities". An opportunity is never mandatory. Therefore, the post is contradictory. The only thing that tells about me is that I believe in consistency and logic... hmmm... so given that, if you assumed I was an atheist after reading what I said that would have made a lot more sense that assuming I'm Christian.

How can you call it an opportunity if its mandatory or required by schools to play it??

Easy... I just point out normal use of sentences. If you told someone "I will be participating in mandatory Christmas carols for work, next week." it would mean to pretty much anyone that you have to sing Christmas carols as part of your job next week or you could be written up for subordination. So when I read "mandatory Christmas caroling" and it turns out participants do not have to sing if they don't want at any point on a whim, that means the person saying the carols were mandatory was telling a lie. The carols were not mandatory. Whether it was mandatory for the company is a moot point, because that is not what was said in the first place.

You're right that its government mandated for the schools, a point I don't really care about, but wrong that the caroling was mandated for students, a point I do care about. Pretty much everything a government school does is government-mandated, such as teachers being mandated to never pray to Jesus before each class session. And that is a mandate you likely have no problem with. So the phrase "government mandated" when talking about education normally refers to the victims (the students), never to the offenders (the schools or those who run them) as its assumed as mandatory on that end.

Dont you have religious schools for that??

Yes.

Whats wrong with religious schools?

From the perspective an atheist, especially a likely fundamentalist atheist such as yourself, there would be a whole lot wrong with religious schools. Though I'm pretty sure that isn't the point so I'll just go on.

Why do the public schools funded by the tax payers have to forced to promote one religion?

Organizations funded by tax-payer money should have to use the money the way the tax-payers decide, regardless of the stupidity and ridiculousness of the spending. Spending tax money on Christmas carols is a wasteful and possibly offensive thing to do. However, wasting money should never be a crime if that is what tax-payers want to do with the money. And that is why public schools must be forced to promote, to those who wish to have it promoted upon, one specific religion.

You have one group of people who wish to use money to promote a religion, and then another group who wishes to hear all about it. Such a concept does not bother me.

Lets be honest here. Do you think the folks including yourself would be using the same excuse if we made it mandatory to listen to religious islamic music?

You're using the word "excuse" but I did not make any in my prior post. In this post however, I explained that tax-payer money should be used as tax-payers wish with limitations only on harming others. Therefore, if you believe any child of yours is being harmed by mandatory Islamic music, you have a right to declare Islamic music harmful and then withdraw your child from that component of the education. If I were to live in Saudi Arabia I wouldn't be worried about Islam doing harm to any child I have so I would not declare it harmful, but I would demand the option of not paying for that component of the education when paying taxes.

I mean we'll just add the opportunity for children to not participate but make it mandatory for the piblic schools to play it. Would you folks be using the same excuse?? I think not.

I cannot speak for "you folks", especially when I think you're way off base with who you are lumping me in with. However, I do support public schools having to play whatever the people forced to fund them want (so long as what is being played does not harm others). If taxpayers wanted to waste their money on Islamic music in public schools I fully support their ability and freedom to waste money if that is how they want to waste it.

You keep your christmas carols in your back yard and I'll raise my own kids mmmmk??

Oh, so you're scared of Christmas carols, perhaps because you think they are harmful. Well, I laugh at that prospect, but at the same time I very seriously support your right to not pay for that. The process carries legal risks but they are limited. And if you have a child you don't want to hear those big scary Christmas carols, I fully support your child being withdrawn from the Christmas carols while instead using that time to take advantage of what you perceive to be a more valuable education. But in point of fact the OP claimed the Christmas carols were voluntary for students, so you won't have much a fight over that.