Tea party patriots wants mandatory Christmas in schools

The Constitution gives us Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.

America is a Christian Nation and as such, we celebrate Christmas. It's on TV, in Stores, In Public, In Schools, In Church, On The Radio, In The Papers and Magazines.

The problem is that America was castrated itself and lost the balls to stand up and say .."This is what we believe and this is what shall be." Instead, we have coward into the corner, happily standing in a pubble of piss with our mouths shut, eyes closed tight and ears covered, just so that we can not be accused of being "Anti-something".

Christmas, as a National Holiday, has less to do with Christian Beliefs and more to do with The Spirit of the Holiday Season. Peace and Goodwill. It's become so commercialized and about marketing for the 'next big thing' that people overlook the joyous moments that it's suppose to be about.

If you live in America and don't want to celebrate Christmas, for whatever reason, then DON'T celebrate Christmas. But do not expect the rest of this country to stop celebrating it's beliefs and/or traditions of the holiday season because you do not agree with it.

If you don't want to watch a Christmas program on TV, turn the damn channel. If you don't want to listen to a Christmas song on the radio, then turn the damn station. If you don't want your children to participate in a Christmas party or a Christmas program at school, then let the school know and they can go sit in the cafeteria with the lunch ladies while the rest of the students ENJOY themselves.

We've become so goddamned PC and sensitive trying to protect the beliefs of others that we've lost sight of what WE belive in and stand for.
It's become so 'Un-American' for men to act like men and women to act like women because then we're pigeonholed into being sexist, or racist, or Anti-something. If you stand up for what you believe in, the people will try to label you as a 'typical American hypocrite' because you're trying to force your views onto someone else.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!


FELIZ NAVIDAD!

Happy Festivus!

Happy Hanukkah!

reply to post by niteboy82


Nope I will explain the true mening of Christmas for you right here, No new thread needed.

The True meaning of Christmas is being with ones loved ones. Peace on Earth Goodwill toward man. The christmas we see today is hogwash markting crap....

Who was it Pope Pious who said Jesus was born on the 25th when there is no Evidence what so ever....

Originally posted by Detailed Perfection
The Constitution gives us Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.

This is one of the ignorant excuses I get from folks who support these forceful religious measures. The constitution gives us freedom of religion but specifically keeps religions out of government. Public schools are under the wing of government, funded by the tax payer where religion has no business in. That doesnt change the fact you have that freedom, but it does limit that freedom to your backyard and not everyone elses.

Another member stated that there was already christmas carols and celebrations in schools and while this may be true, they are not mandatory and schools are not required to practice them.

America is a Christian Nation and as such, we celebrate Christmas.

America is a majority christian nation, that doesnt make it constitutionally a christian nation. Its not the "christian republic" and we are not so backward to follow against the freedoms such as the islamic republic of Iran.

How about a happy medium?

Absolutely no carols or any Christmas/holiday festivities of any kind. No Christmas break. School still in session. No Christmas/holiday decor or music.

Only students of Christian families get excused absences like any other holiday with religious origins.

Problem solved.

If your rebuttal to the above is 'Christmas is more cultural than religious therefore everyone should get the vacation' then consider carols more cultural than religious as well.

Yes, this absurd post is to demonstrate how ridiculous both sides are being.

[edit on 12/14/2009 by AshleyD]

This is the problem with ANY group of people...and why independents are the true soul of this world.

reply to post by AshleyD


Well Ashley some members had already pointed out that christmas festivities are celebrated in schools, and the difference with this is that its not mandatory. Thats my argument, making what is known as religious festivities mandatory You cannot call it giving kids the "opportunity" when your making it mandatory, or a requirement for schools.

The dominance of christianity in this nation will always reflect itself some way in our establishments, its a given, but the minutre we go around making these things mandatory, thats when it becomes a problem constitutionally. If I misunderstood your post let me know.

You want Christmas....

Here's your Christmas.

wilstar.com...

The founding fathers of America didn't even celebrate Christmas.

reply to post by Detailed Perfection


Freedom OF religion means you have the freedom to practice whatever religion you want. How can someone who doesn't share your religion be free to practice what they want if their kids are required to attend a school that has mandatory celebration of only one religions holiday?

Your perfectly free to practice that religion however you chose in your own home, community, family with people who share your beliefs. But in government and school not everyone shares the same beliefs so to just pick the most popular religion and make everyone have to celebrate and tolerate it is completely against what the meaning of freedom of religion and separation of church and state was meant for.

You can say that Christmas isn't just about Jesus' birthday (a Christian belief). That it's about the spirit of the season, charity, and giving. That's the only reason I celebrate Christmas. However, for most people who aren't Christian, the very idea that they be forced to celebrate a holiday that ONLY exists because of a religious belief that it is Jesus' birthday, isn't "too PC", it's sacrilege to them.

What about kids who practice other religions other than Christianity who have to watch the other kids celebrate their religion but don't have the chance to celebrate theirs? Where's THEIR freedom of religion?

Indeed.

As someone who has intensively studied colonial history throughout my collegiate career I can certainly say than whenever I hear a Tea-Party member speak about what is and isn't American, and what our founding fathers intended, I can only put my face in my hands.

These people have absolutely no understanding of 17th and 18th century European history, let alone early American.
In fact, they are usually the first ones to condemn Freemasonry, with little understanding that everything we have in America comes from that practice.

Our founding fathers believed first the foremost that separation from tyranny, religious oppression, and fanaticism was the only way to find and uphold enlightenment.

At the cornerstone of their creed was the separation of church and state.

Thats America. Sorry.

I think it is kind of sad, that in this day and era, that we are still arguing about this, or even the Pledge of Allegiance, all because of the mention of God. I know alot of Buddhists, pagans and other religions, who may not go with the practice of Christmas, still celebrate, and put up Christmas trees, because it is the time of year. It is a sad state of affairs, when time honored traditions and icons, things that have been in place for years come under attack. One of the highlights of the season for all children around the world is this time of year. Christmas carols being sung in school, a chance to perform in the different concerts, and decorating the classroom, fun stuff. When I was in school this was the time of year that was looked forward to, as it also ment that there was coming up a break from classes. In a childs eyes, this was the time of year when there was a bit of hope and magic, the wonder of the season. What is next that will be forbidden? No decorations on the home, or lights or displays of the season around the town, or how about those classics on TV, will those go away only to gather dust?
I may not believe in Christianity, but at the same time I do not believe in the cause of those who would seek to destroy either faith or the wonderment of a child, all in the name of trying to protect children. Ultimately it is about choice, and what you teach your child in your home is your business, but when it comes to the rest, then we should respect the each other, and at the same time let the children have a lill fun in this world, who knows maybe a few christmas carols may bring back a bit of the wonderment to us all.

reply to post by sdcigarpig


Well the Pledge is a completely different story because we stuck that in there during McCarthyism to prove we're not communist.

Listen I am like the Clark W. Griswold of Christmas. I love Christmas. It is my favorite holiday in the world. Cases of Champagne, tons and tons of food, family, friends, parties, caroling, traditions. This is the most important time of year to me. I know its a Pagan holiday. Jesus Christ was not born on the 25th of December. We all know this.

Making carols MANDATORY in public schools is just so transparent coming from these right-leaning characters who are the same to cry out for prayer in public schools and "intelligent design" to be taught in science classes, etc etc.
Its not because they love Jingle Bell Rock.....Its because they keep trying to get their foot in the door to make THEIR beliefs superior because again they truly, truly believe America is supposed to be Christian and nothing else.

I personally hope every child, if they'd like to, gets to do a rousing rendition of Frosty the Snowman. I hope they all do Jingle Bells with the little bells tied on to their hands (I loved that).

These things however are really not mandatory, nor should they be, when it comes to publicly funded education. Another stupid move that shows these people's real agenda under their facade of "patriotism" and "freedom".

Originally posted by awake_awoke
Indeed.

As someone who has intensively studied colonial history throughout my collegiate career I can certainly say than whenever I hear a Tea-Party member speak about what is and isn't American, and what our founding fathers intended, I can only put my face in my hands.

These people have absolutely no understanding of 17th and 18th century European history, let alone early American.
In fact, they are usually the first ones to condemn Freemasonry, with little understanding that everything we have in America comes from that practice.

Our founding fathers believed first the foremost that separation from tyranny, religious oppression, and fanaticism was the only way to find and uphold enlightenment.

At the cornerstone of their creed was the separation of church and state.

Thats America. Sorry.

My understanding of the reasons behind our founding fathers came to this country and seperated was the following:
1) Oppressive religious biotry. Many came here because they were tired of the wars that were going on in Europe, between the different churches all in the name of God, and that if you did not believe as the rulers of different lands, you were either executed or imprisoned.
2) The tyranny was directed against the king of England. The king was acting like a tyrant, and then was called such.
3) The Tea party was a political statement about the lack of represnetation in the British parliment, when it came to taxes and the laws on the colonies. The english monarchy was trying to pay for the 7-years war that had happened and was taxing the Colonies to pay for such, as the rest of the British provences were being over taxed.
4) The seperation of Church and State. The main reason the founding fathers wanted to seperate the church and state, is because at that time, the church held alot of political power in Europe. Laws were often written with church approval and would sometimes be oppressive to the local community, to include paying double taxes during the year, one going to the state and the other going to the church.
I do not think or believe that the founding fathers would have wanted the church oppressed or for children to not to have any religion, but rather would want an equal representation with people.
I also believe that the ideas of religion was important to the founding fathers, as it was mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
5) The seperation of Church and state was not actually law, rather it comes from a letter by President Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where he was stating that government did not have the right to regulate any church. But it is a 2 way street, that the church can not regulate the body politic.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Absolutely no carols or any Christmas/holiday festivities of any kind. No Christmas break. School still in session. No Christmas/holiday decor or music.

Only students of Christian families get excused absences like any other holiday with religious origins.

I'd go along with this as long as school was out of session for a 2 week Winter break at the end of the year. Just like Spring break. Then the people could do whatever they want during the break. Because what about all the teachers who would want to celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah or other holiday? If school were in session, there wouldn't be any teachers there.

Originally posted by awake_awoke
reply to post by sdcigarpig

 

Well the Pledge is a completely different story because we stuck that in there during McCarthyism to prove we're not communist.

Listen I am like the Clark W. Griswold of Christmas. I love Christmas. It is my favorite holiday in the world. Cases of Champagne, tons and tons of food, family, friends, parties, caroling, traditions. This is the most important time of year to me. I know its a Pagan holiday. Jesus Christ was not born on the 25th of December. We all know this.

Making carols MANDATORY in public schools is just so transparent coming from these right-leaning characters who are the same to cry out for prayer in public schools and "intelligent design" to be taught in science classes, etc etc.
Its not because they love Jingle Bell Rock.....Its because they keep trying to get their foot in the door to make THEIR beliefs superior because again they truly, truly believe America is supposed to be Christian and nothing else.

I personally hope every child, if they'd like to, gets to do a rousing rendition of Frosty the Snowman. I hope they all do Jingle Bells with the little bells tied on to their hands (I loved that).

These things however are really not mandatory, nor should they be, when it comes to publicly funded education. Another stupid move that shows these people's real agenda under their facade of "patriotism" and "freedom".

The pledge has been around since 1892, by Francis Bellamy. He made it short for the point of children to state such to the flag of the country.
The "under god" part was added, 1954, in reference to President Lincoln, and the Gettyburg address.
It was first used on October 12, 1892 by President Benjamin Harrison, in hopes that it would help give the children of the country a sense of solidarity and patriotism across the country.
In June, 22 1942 it was recognized and mandated by the Congress of the United States.
But back to the topic, there should not be such a furor about christmas carols during the time of the season, and if it serves to enrich the lives of children, then why is it wrong? And yet as I read and think, giving to the common sense of the matter, if you are going to remove such from schools, what about libraries? They are up kept by the state, yet most will have sections dedicated to different religions, will those be next, or forbidden to all because they are not important? What about history, shall those be omitted from texts, such as the invention of the printing press and the first printed book?

Originally posted by sdcigarpig
But back to the topic, there should not be such a furor about christmas carols during the time of the season, and if it serves to enrich the lives of children, then why is it wrong? And yet as I read and think, giving to the common sense of the matter, if you are going to remove such from schools, what about libraries? They are up kept by the state, yet most will have sections dedicated to different religions, will those be next, or forbidden to all because they are not important? What about history, shall those be omitted from texts, such as the invention of the printing press and the first printed book?

If you want your kids to sing Christmas Carols at school, send them to private school. If you want them to learn about every religious tradition in the U.S. then send them to college. If you want them to learn something while they are at a school we all have to pay for anyway, perhaps they could worry about science and math and sing when they get home at 3 in the afternoon.

Again, I mostly agree with the majority of your assertions. However in the case of libraries, that is quite a stretch. Our founding fathers believed that knowlege (i.e religions) is powerful to have so calling such knowledge any less important would not be within their creed.

Faith and religion are not the same. These were men of different faiths that shared some of the greatest ideals of the enlightenment period. To divide a populace based on religious preference whether it be Quaker vs. Anglican back then, or Jewish vs. Muslim now....is un-American, counter-productive, and useless.

Religion is necessary but reason should always prevail. That is how these men led their lives and why they chose to escape the muddled mess back in Europe for a "fresh start". Sometimes I just can't help but think we're undoing all their hard work....in favor of what?

Again, Christmas carols and mandatory Christmas carols are completely different things. By looking at the context of making this mandatory, and who is saying it, I again can only see what I believe to be the true intention, and not a justsimple verse of "I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus".......

reply to post by Lillydale


Here here!

Quite often I see those that complain the most about globalization and "American" jobs being sent elsewhere....

Are the same ones who put all their time and energy into such trivial issues compared to their children's education as a whole.

Originally posted by Lillydale
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If you want your kids to sing Christmas Carols at school, send them to private school. If you want them to learn about every religious tradition in the U.S. then send them to college. If you want them to learn something while they are at a school we all have to pay for anyway, perhaps they could worry about science and math and sing when they get home at 3 in the afternoon.
Why would you deny children the right to a well rounded education and being a child? Music and Art are just as important to the development of a childs education, as it reading, writing, math, science, history and language. And part of the musical education, be it that you like it or not, is going to be Christmas Carols, and other music that is with God. Or would you cut out music and art from a childs education, as it would touch on that topic? Most music, can trace its roots back in history, from the modern day all of the way back to the roman/greco times. So there really is no way not to hit apon those songs. The same thing with Art, you go back through Art history and you are going to see religious topics. And what about world history, are you going to cut that from the circulum as well?