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Tea party patriots wants mandatory Christmas in schools

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posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by Kaytagg
 



Leave religion out of school. It doesn't belong in a place of learning.

Christmas has evolved to be a holiday that is more cultural than religious. As such, there are Christmas carols and other Christmassy things that have nothing to do with the Christian aspect of Christmas. Therefore, I don't see a problem with teachers ans students being allowed to play Frosty the Snowman in class.




posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 05:28 AM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


I like this quote from the article:


It's like, 'wow you guys, it's called Christmas for a reason.' "


Someone should tell people that it's not called Christmas in every language, so this argument quickly falls apart. For example, in German, Christmas is Weinachten, which means "holy nights". My point is just that, once someone leave the anglosprach realm, the whole "it's called Christmas for a reason!!!" thing is silly.

Yes, in the Western, christianized world we have a holiday here because of Christ. People shouldn't lose their right to say that. But people, especially some Christians, need to understand that Christmas has evolved into something that is not a religious thing and this thing just happens to have the name Christ in it.

[edit on 12/14/2009 by octotom]



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 05:29 AM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


Just a quick reminder to all the usual (particularly U.S. based) "believers" that as of December 2009 the earths estimated population is 6.803 Billion. There are only approx 2.1 Billion Magic Baby Jesus Believers leaving the VAST MAJORITY of human beings completely disinterested in your ancient Middle Eastern/Semitic rituals.
Is it a strictly American disease? You know, DEMANDING that everyone be the same as you?

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.5 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million

10. Juche: 19 million (North Korean official state "religion" - LOL!)
LINK TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT DEAR LEADERS THING! www.adherents.com...

11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. Scientology: 500 thousand



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 05:34 AM
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The First Amendment reads as follows--

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Now, since this really only applies to the first part of the amendment, or establishment clause, I shall focus on that.

Now, on the side of wanting to force Christmas type music into schools. Actually, this would not overstep an constitutional boundaries regarding the first amendment. In no way does requiring schools to include "Christmas" themed music in schools, establish a religion. On the contrary one could argue the point that by requiring a portion of holiday festivities to include traditional music into programs, it is actually protecting and upholding the establishment clause....the oft forgotten part of the clause which is "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Schools that have set out banning such songs from their programs are actually going against the Federal Constitutions Establishment clause by in effect, prohibiting said type of music for a slue of reasons; i.e. multiculturalism, fear of offense, fear of civil suit, etc.

On the same token, the school cannot forcefully make a child sing a song that praises God, Allah, or Creator; just as the school cannot forcefully have that child discount their God, Allah, or Creator in song.

The street goes both ways, but each side wants it to be a one-way highway to their views.

Edited for clarification....as I was not speaking to any one here in particular


[edit on 14-12-2009 by ownbestenemy]



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by Common Good

Everyone wants equality, but nobody wants to let other groups in on that equality. I dont just say that for the christians, but for all religions. If there is a religous holiday going on, the schools should do whatever they can to make sure the students get to atleast celebrate it amongst each other.



One of my kids is a Satanist and the other practices HooDoo. Whatever will I do? Well lucky for me there are people like you around to defend them. Each and every kid should get the chance to celebrate all of their religious holidays in school be it singing carols, slaughtering a goat, or killing virgins. They should all be allowed.

Or are kids can go to school to learn and stop being one of the stupidest countries on the planet because we spend too much school time worrying about snowman decorations in this false pursuit of equality that seems to end once the loudest whiner is allowed in.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 05:41 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale
false pursuit of equality


Do you mean "make us equal, and by that I mean make everything I believe the only thing that matters."?

If not, please elaborate.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 05:54 AM
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I think people mix up "Equal under the law" with equality too much...

To be equal under the law, would be to ban any type of festive music during winter time as to protect the rights of all citizens.

Right now, the equality under the law is being favored in one direction over the other.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 05:55 AM
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Originally posted by Kaytagg

Originally posted by Lillydale
false pursuit of equality


Do you mean "make us equal, and by that I mean make everything I believe the only thing that matters."?

If not, please elaborate.


DING DING DING DING.

This 'we all need to be equal so all religions are precious so lets celebrate Christmas in school. I guess we need to celebrate Chanukah too then. Oh um I guess Kwanzaa as well. Ramadan? What?!!! The Equinox? The harvest? This is America, we do not let that stuff invade our being equal!'

or

'We should all be treated equally and all given the chance to realize Christ as our savior on our own in our own way.'



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 05:55 AM
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reply to post by ownbestenemy
 


Your assertion that there are two discernible sides to this issue is, at best, mistaken. It seems clear the original poster has definitely taken a side and most certainly exhibits the behavior you describe, which was:

"a one-way highway to their views."

However, those who entered this thread to defend the values of the Tea Party have not taken any stance that only their views matter and it is a "one way highway". Quite the contrary, they have spoken to the values of the Tea Party without insisting they are right and others are wrong and the only post I can find declaring Christmas a must, was from a self avowed "Jew" who seemed to be praising Christmas not for its religious value but for its cultural allure and the perception that the gifts given on Christmas are cooler.

While that poster did spend a bit of time denigrating Kwanzaa, it struck me this was out of jest, rather than a my way or the highway type of attitude. Even the assertion that this poster would begin kicking butts if Christmas were ever banned seemed to be out of jest rather than a zealous Christian zeal and given the claim that their faith was Judaism, I think it would be fair to assume it was not Christian fervor that was being extolled but just a love for the holiday that Americans have come to call Christmas.

The fervor and zealousness seems to be fairly one sided in this thread and it hasn't been from any Christian attempting to shove their faith down the throats of others, it has come from a different faith and those who believe in that faith have been particularly zealous about shoving their beliefs down the throats of either Christians or "Americans". That being said, I enjoyed your interpretation of the Establishment Clause, and thought it was well thought out and presented clearly and effectively.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 06:00 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 



Ah good catch I should have been more clear on the one way highway comment. I was not meaning this thread in particular but an over generalization of the battles we see daily regarding religion and separation of church and state.

Thanks!



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 06:03 AM
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reply to post by ownbestenemy
 


Thanks for the clarification. In general, I think you are right and there is too much of a one way or the other stance taken by too many zealots on both sides of the issue. Thank goodness for that Constitution, no?



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 06:09 AM
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Since the actual words "Separation of Church and State" never appear in the U.S. Constitution I would have to look at this issue in a different light. The first amendment says "Congress shall make no respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." So in my opinion they can't stop schools who want to celebrate it, because that would be prohibiting the free exercise thereof.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by mopusvindictus
Never will get anywhere...

But the person has a point on a Level...

I'm a Jew and I celebrate Christmas, because well, Christmas is much more fun than Hanukkah




From my experience with Jewish friends, you are pretty typical of the bunch. I usually end up at their houses for Christmas parties.

In school the best thing about being Jewish seemed to be the extra days they got to take off while also getting breaks on our "Christian" holidays.

But, I didn't mind those dradle things so much nor the chocolate coins that one kid used to hand out to the whole elementary school class every year. It was just a small bonus.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 06:14 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Absolutely correct. It seems we have gone from a nice sinusoidal wave to a jagged see-saw in terms of how things are handled.

This actually reminds me of the arguments made about the Pledge of Allegiance. You are not required by law, as a student to recite the pledge. You are not even required to be in the classroom. Yet people will go to the extremes to ban the pledge because of what they feel to be offensive. The only authority a school has in that manner is what the child is doing, i.e. US Code gives explicit instruction on how the pledge is to be administered.

But back on point -- I was a bit derailed by own thoughts.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 06:28 AM
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reply to post by kingoftheworld
 



If a school, any school private or public, chooses to not teach a particular religious view or the culture that comes with it, this is not in any way a prohibition of the right to exercise freely ones religious faith. If a person wants to pray before a test and the administrators or a teacher from that school prevent such prayer, this would be a prohibition of the right to exercise freely ones religious belief.

It should also be noted that you ignored the Establishment Clause portion of the text you quoted and only focused on the Exercise Clause. Congress, and it can be interpreted since the passage of the 14th Amendment, that even the states and local governments are prohibited from establishing any religious view as a mandatory doctrine imposed upon the people. It is for this reason, that those who do not hold with the Christian faith have taken to argue that the Establishment Clause forbids it. However, I think ownbestenemy effectively argued against this with an earlier post.

Singing Christmas carols in the classroom is not forbidden by the Constitution but choosing to not sing them in the classroom is not forbidden by the Constitution either. Children can not be stopped from singing Christmas carols because of their religious nature and can only be stopped from singing them if their singing is disrupting the curriculum. Conversely, children can't be stopped from singing Kwanzaa songs or Jewish hymns or even Satanist diddies because of their religious nature and can only be stopped from singing them if that singing is disrupting the purpose of the class.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by Common Good

Everyone wants equality, but nobody wants to let other groups in on that equality. I dont just say that for the christians, but for all religions. If there is a religous holiday going on, the schools should do whatever they can to make sure the students get to atleast celebrate it amongst each other.



One of my kids is a Satanist and the other practices HooDoo. Whatever will I do? Well lucky for me there are people like you around to defend them. Each and every kid should get the chance to celebrate all of their religious holidays in school be it singing carols, slaughtering a goat, or killing virgins. They should all be allowed.

Or are kids can go to school to learn and stop being one of the stupidest countries on the planet because we spend too much school time worrying about snowman decorations in this false pursuit of equality that seems to end once the loudest whiner is allowed in.


Wow. Did someone poop underneath your christmas tree?
Hey if your kid wants to worship satan, who am I to judge?
They are kids, they want to have fun. Let them enjoy the holidays.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 09:06 AM
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I have a perfect solution to everyone's point of view on this whole "Seperation of Church and State" issue.

We all know the government's point of view about Religion. They think their is no place for religion in government, hence the removal of it from said Department of Education schools.

Here is novel idea. How about removing government from schools?

By the very act of the Fed taking control of our schools they have gone against the very Amendment they "Supposedly" are trying to protect.

Where, in the Constitution, does it mandate Federally controlled schools?

See, the Fed always sidesteps the very issue of the situation.

The thorough devaluement of ethics in our country, can be directly attributable to the Fed run schools. Where narcissism runs rampant.

How bout them apples?



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


So whats your point Christmas is a Recognized Federal Holiday. California can teach "its okay to be gay" But not the true history and meaning of Christmas?



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 09:49 AM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


It's really a shame. While I wasn't a "tea party person" I did support the initial idea because it was some form of people rebelling against "The Man." I remember when all the road signs here had the message changed to "Tea Party!" and how happy I was to see it. Now however, it seems like some of those people who also happen to be in the higher-ups of the movement have taken on a stance of demanding that government intrude just a little more into our lives. :shk:

There are already Christmas plays, Christmas carols, etc in schools. I'm not quite sure what more they would want. While I don't think its a good idea to involve religion in schools, Christmas is a national holiday and it can easily be celebrated without any faith whatsoever in an Abrahamic religion.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we taught children the true meanings behind celebrations on December 25th, however then the kids would probably start asking questions, which of course TPTB wouldn't want.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 09:50 AM
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reply to post by poedxsoldiervet
 


Just out of curiosity, would you like to explain to the class what the true meaning behind Christmas is, or would you rather create a new thread to explain the pagan holiday taken over by the Christians?



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