If God was born into flesh, did He have an "extra" soul to make Him fully human?

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
I do not believe as a Christian that Jesus was God.

Then by definition you are not a Christian.

Jesus was God's son Granted.. But Not God himself.

John disagrees with you...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. ... the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:1-14

I do not believe in the Trinity as most Christians think of it. The triune God idea was not what the early Christians believed but was something that the Catholic church brought into existence through the pagan influences of the day.

There certainly were Hellenizing influences here...
...but even in Hebrew thought there was the idea of God as a plural being...
...the 'threeness' of God is conceptually present in the letters of John and Paul.

All Protestant churches retained this Catholic belief when they split from the Catholic Church during the Reformation. This includes Baptists Presbyterians Episcopalians and all of the Assembly of God or Charismatic or Pentecostal churches, However I do not believe there is Biblical or historical evidence that the true early Christian Church believed this.

While I agree Greko/Roman influences distorted first century Hebrew concepts...
...I think that there was clear definition of divine plurality in the New Testament manuscripts...
...here is a sample of where the three divine persons are dynamically described.

Matt. 3:16,17 - "being baptized, Jesus...saw the Spirit of God descending...and a voice, saying, 'This is My beloved Son...'"

Matt. 28:19 - "baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"

II Cor. 13:14 - "the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all"

Gal. 4:6 - "God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts..."

Eph. 4:4-6 - "one Spirit...one Lord...one God and Father of all..."

I Pet. 1:2 - "foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ..."

reply to post by troubleshooter

John disagrees with you...

Find the word of God in John 1.

It comes from the mouth of who Jesus called the greatest prophet who ever lived, John the Baptist, saying, "I have both seen and testified that this man is the Chosen One of God".

Jesus is made the Son of God by proclamation.

reply to post by IceDash



It's understandable you should think that, as the JW's believe this Truth as well, but I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I am a minister with the Light of Life Ministry and we are not affiliated with any man made organized religion. We are Christ's ministry of the End Times.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

John disagrees with you...

Find the word of God in John 1.

θεός appear 12 time in John 1:

Whats your point?

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

John disagrees with you...

Find the word of God in John 1.

θεός appear 12 time in John 1:

Whats your point?

The word of God was enough to create the universe and it is enough to designate a Son of God.
In this case, it came through the prophet.

What was so great about John the baptist, in the world of Prophets?
He designated the Son of God. The word became flesh in the person of the Baptist, and created the Son of God. Not that there was necessarily not a Son of God previous to this, but this was the singular occurrence where the title was given to a man. There was a son of God before, Adam, but he was son of God by circumstance, and not by selection, being no other men at the time to choose from.

None of it makes any sense from the very beginning. Why would "God," this entity which is supposedly all-powerful and all-encompassing even feel the need to do such a thing? Does this God have needs? Does this God lack something? Then I guess this thing is not as all-encompassing as originally assumed.

I've never understood why such a thing (that is not a thing?) would find it necessary to split itself into three components. Let's not forget the Holy Spirit, the red-headed stepchild of the Trinity.

And it is at that point that believers shut down and say something like, "All things are possible with God," or "We human beings can never understand the ways of God." Dodging the obvious illogic of the situation is the only way a person can keep their belief intact.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

The word of God was enough to create the universe and it is enough to designate a Son of God.
In this case, it came through the prophet.

What was so great about John the baptist, in the world of Prophets?
He designated the Son of God. The word became flesh in the person of the Baptist, and created the Son of God. Not that there was necessarily not a Son of God previous to this, but this was the singular occurrence where the title was given to a man. There was a son of God before, Adam, but he was son of God by circumstance, and not by selection, being no other men at the time to choose from.

You must be reading a different bible than me...
...mine certainly doesn't say that.



[edit on 14/12/09 by troubleshooter]

reply to post by 2000 Yards


Tell me...what is there to experience when you experience everything...but at the moment....there is NOTHING...what do YOU do?

What would you do with omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, eternal life...? Just sit there like a bump on a log?? Perhaps you'd take joy in creating CHILDREN....perhaps you'd take joy in WATCHING THEM GROW....if only you could walk a mile in God's mocassins.....oh but alas, I don't even dream to see you with that power.... Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely....

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by 2000 Yards

 

Tell me...what is there to experience when you experience everything...but at the moment....there is NOTHING...what do YOU do?

What would you do with omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, eternal life...? Just sit there like a bump on a log?? Perhaps you'd take joy in creating CHILDREN....perhaps you'd take joy in WATCHING THEM GROW....if only you could walk a mile in God's mocassins.....oh but alas, I don't even dream to see you with that power.... Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely....

OMFG your so full of your self. God wears Nike's, not moccasins! At least your right that absolute power corrupts absolutely, describes God perfectly.

reply to post by sirnex


Don't attack me...just answer the question...if you can without saying that you'd do what God did...and nike's...really? I never heard the phrase "walk a mile in my nike's"....

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by jmdewey60

The word of God was enough to create the universe and it is enough to designate a Son of God.
In this case, it came through the prophet.

What was so great about John the baptist, in the world of Prophets?
He designated the Son of God. The word became flesh in the person of the Baptist, and created the Son of God. Not that there was necessarily not a Son of God previous to this, but this was the singular occurrence where the title was given to a man. There was a son of God before, Adam, but he was son of God by circumstance, and not by selection, being no other men at the time to choose from.

You must be reading a different bible than me...
...mine certainly doesn't say that.

. . .doesn't say what?. . .that John said that the reason he was out there baptizing was to point out the Christ? He said that.
So, according to your theory of God and Jesus, then there is no light in John the Baptist?
If there is, then the light in the preamble is saying what the words appear to be saying, that the word dwelt among men, meaning the plural of a man, including the Baptist.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by jmdewey60]

I recall having a literature Professor once, who explained to us why he left organized religion as a boy.
He explained that he had read the Baptism-of-Jesus scenario, where Jesus is illustarted as the Son in the water, the Holy Spirit as a dove in the sky, and God as sun-shine behind the clouds. He telephoned the priest to enquire how those three things can be one. He could never understand why the priest was so upstet and said: "When your dog barks, does it say why?", and he slammed the phone down.
Some argue that 3 forms of pagan sun-worship are represented here:
- the dove (Goddes: Isis, Bel)
- Jesus (Horus, Mithras, Tammuz)
- God the heavenly Farther (Sol, Helius)
I'm not sure if that's correct, but when the doctrines were first established, Constatntine did seek the advice of the various pagan groups.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
oh but alas, I don't even dream to see you with that power.... Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely....

hmmmm....

maybe THAT'S the reason for the "free will clause!"

because if i were GOD, that's what i would do, too - give my children the freedom to have their own mind and heart to follow.

and that way, there is no concentration of "power" in any one place potentially wrecking the whole train.

but then, on the other hand, the power of GOD is the power of LOVE.

and love power is the only power that is guaranteed not to corrupt.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."
~Jimi Hendrix

and oh yeah, the last time i saw GOD, he was bare-footed!

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

I never heard the phrase "walk a mile in my nike's"

Equally, I have never heard the phrase:

if only you could walk a mile in God's mocassins

But, to just nitpick, I never said "walk a mile in my Nike's."

And yet, I feel the need to explain the misunderstanding as well, just for the hell of it and I'm bored and I love lack of reading comprehension in contexts.

Don't attack me

I'm sorry if you viewed the sarcasm as an attack. The reason behind saying your full of yourself is for claiming God wears moccasins when everyone knows he wears Nike's. If read and comprehended in context, this perceived attack wouldn't have been perceived as an attack at all. Just good old sirnex being an a** again.

just answer the question

What would you do with omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, eternal life...? Just sit there like a bump on a log?? Perhaps you'd take joy in creating CHILDREN....perhaps you'd take joy in WATCHING THEM GROW.

It really pains me to watch my children grow by allowing them to suffer when I possess the capability to end that suffering. Here on planet Earth, such acts is against the law. I have no respect for negligent parenting nor would I become a negligent parent myself if I were as powerful as God.

Perhaps you would let your children die while the house is burning down so you can watch them grow if they make it out alive, but then... I would call you a monster.

we are all the spirit of God - God would not just become one human imho - he lives in us all - he is internal and external to us i think

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by jmdewey60

The word of God was enough to create the universe and it is enough to designate a Son of God.
In this case, it came through the prophet.

What was so great about John the baptist, in the world of Prophets?
He designated the Son of God. The word became flesh in the person of the Baptist, and created the Son of God. Not that there was necessarily not a Son of God previous to this, but this was the singular occurrence where the title was given to a man. There was a son of God before, Adam, but he was son of God by circumstance, and not by selection, being no other men at the time to choose from.

You must be reading a different bible than me...
...mine certainly doesn't say that.

. . .doesn't say what?. . .that John said that the reason he was out there baptizing was to point out the Christ? He said that.
So, according to your theory of God and Jesus, then there is no light in John the Baptist?
If there is, then the light in the preamble is saying what the words appear to be saying, that the word dwelt among men, meaning the plural of a man, including the Baptist.

Ok, I will play...following is John 1:1-14...
...I have even used the KJV in case someone has an issue with versions...


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made"

Word - was in the beginning
Word - with God
Word - was God
Word - made everything

"4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

In Him (The Word) was Life.
The Life within Him was the 'Light' of men.
This Life/Light within Him shines in darkness.
Darkness does not appreciate/understand the light/life.


John has described The Word...
...and now we have a new person introduced.

"6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."

John was sent by God that the Word was with and was God...
...and John's purpose was 'to bear witness'

"7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe."

John bore witness to the Light...
...remember Life was in the Word...
...and that Life was 'the Light of Men.

"8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light."

John was not 'the Light'...
...that is, John was not 'the Word'...
...because why?...
...because John was sent to witness to 'that Light'...
...(which was the Life/Light that the Word lighted every man with)

Ok, so are we right now? The Word and John are not the same...
...the Word is the source of Life/Light...
...and John is a man, so the Light/Light of the Word is within John.

Then John summarizes the reaction to the Word who is the 'true light'...
...which is the reaction to what John is bearing witness too.


"9 That (the Word) was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He (the Word) was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

The Word who was with and is God and is Life and the Light of men became Jesus.

"14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."

Questions:
Where then does your understanding of this passage differ from a clear reading?

Do you think the Light is a person or some kind of knowledge?



[edit on 22/12/09 by troubleshooter]

reply to post by troubleshooter

Questions:
Where then does your understanding of this passage differ from a clear reading?

Do you think the Light is a person or some kind of knowledge?

I do not think reading these passages is somehow automatically clear, as in having a straightforward explanation, that just jumps out at you to be grasped in a single sitting. It is something that requires a lot of thinking and a lot of study.
Nobody (as in human persons) chose David to be king. God told Samuel to go to Jesse and He would show to him who He had chosen. God told the Baptist to go to the Jordan River and He would show to him who He had chosen. "Behold the Lamb of God" was the creative word from Genesis one, intervening in the history of the world to bring about a great thing, a new creation where the spirit is the active force that makes the separation occur, the dividing of the light from the dark, and showing itself in the hearts of men.