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Hypocrisy to Christian forgiveness?

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posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 09:24 PM
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We are told that our sins are forgiven by Jesus' sacrifice. That one act of death forgave all of our sins. However we are also told to ask for forgiveness when we pray. If Christ's death and resurrection forgave our sins then all of them are forgiven. If we could gain forgiveness by asking for it after we sin, then why would Christ have died? Why would he die if we could just ask forgiveness for our sins on a weekly basis?

This thread is not to "debunk" Christianity. It's to discuss how both methods of forgiveness could possibly exist at once.

Edit to pose question: Did Christ's death give him the power to forgive our sins through prayer?

[edit on 12-12-2009 by gsuboy]




posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 09:30 PM
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That's what I found to be one of the problems with orthodox Christianity long ago. The whole prayer for forgiveness thing seems sort of redundant. And what really changes for a person, if all they do is ask for forgiveness year after year. Is that really what Jesus wants of us? Somehow I don't think so, I think he'd be bored frankly.



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 09:43 PM
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An inconsistency in religion?

Surely not!

I also don't understand how all the sins of man can be forgiven by the death of a man. A wrong to make all wrongs forgiven?

Does this mean that Christians can literally thank Jesus every time they sin because it's pre-forgiven?

Does this mean that Christians can sin as much as they like?

That would explain a few things I s'pose............



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 09:51 PM
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The religion can't make up it's mind.



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 10:03 PM
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Jesus' death on the cross brought about the redemption of mankind from original sin. This made man once again worthy in God's eyes of being able to attain heaven.

Jesus' death on the cross had infinate value and was sufficient to atone for all of the sins of man past and present.

However, the forgiveness obtained for us on the cross only comes to those who accept Jesus as their lord and savior, ASK FOR FORGIVNESS and ammend to change their lives in the future.

Forgiveness is not automatic just by virtue of being a Christian.

edit for spelling

[edit on 12-12-2009 by FortAnthem]



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 10:09 PM
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Well said. And when one asks for forgiveness they must truly mean it otherwise its meaningless. If you are asking for forgiveness while plotting someones murder God isn't going to take you seriously. Forgiveness is possible by the cross but determined by ones condition of the heart.



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 11:53 PM
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Old Testament: "We have sinned and rebelled and you have not forgiven." - Lamentations 3:42

New Testament: "When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." - Luke 5:19-20

Forgiveness is a continual process. When these men sought Jesus and had faith in him, they were forgiven, however, each day we live here we're subject to making more mistakes (sins). When we make these mistakes, we're not seeking Christ, else no mistakes would be made. Forgiveness is not just saying "I'm sorry". Forgiveness is recognizing what you've done wrong, understanding why it is wrong, and sincerely making the change necessary to be right in the eyes of God. Ever hear someone say "sorry isn't good enough" ?

"One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." - Luke 23:39-43

If you marry someone, do you stop loving them because you marry them? "Bah, I already loved you, I don't need to keep loving you now do I?" Is that how relationships work? So too in our relationship with Christ. It's not a one time event. It is an every day effort that requires real work.

[edit on 12-12-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 12:05 AM
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Firstly; one must look at the old testament way of gaining forgiveness of one's sin. In the time before Christ death, one would have to sacrifice an animal, thereby shedding the blood of said animal in place of one's own blood to obtain forgiveness .

The shedding of Christ blood has eliminated blood sacrifice for future generations coming after that event. Now one must be willing to accept the sacrifice of Christ, and accept him as their savior, and intercessor between one's self and GOD. With the willful sacrifice Christ made for all humanity to come after this event, He has now placed Himself as High Priest to intercede on our behalf.

Now as a couple of other poster have pointed out so thoroughly, one must accept Christ as their Saviour, and truly want forgiveness, while not intentionally continuing in the same behaviors which caused you to feel the need and want to ask for forgiveness.

I hope this helps to steer your research into the bible and Christian theology on this matter.



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 12:07 AM
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reply to post by gsuboy
 


Good post! I don't have an answer, however. way back in the way back time of 1971, when just a silly freshman in college, a Jesus Freak approached me and told me did I know that if I gave my soul to Jesus, that I could pull out a machine gun and kill everyone walking on the quad at that time and go to Heaven. No problems for my soul?



That's just silly crap.

When I was a kid I went to a church, they preached the same sort of stuff, said, you gotta be saved. Once you were saved, all was well. But.............ut oh. You could "backslide". The original promise was broken by your own actions. Huh? But I thought I was forgiven, for like, forever?

Some other kid one winter decided to slide down a snowy hill on his back and as he was going down hill he yelled out, "Look! I am a backslider!"

I laughed and got the crap smacked out of me by my mom. Apparently God forgives, but not Mom.



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by gsuboy
 


Religion (not any in particular) can be substituted for hypocrisy as the two mean the same thing.

Simple message common to all "god men" writings (Christ included)--

Be nice to one another

The modern christian church co-opts this into "be sorry"



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by kyred
You could "backslide". The original promise was broken by your own actions.


"We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil." - Hebrews 5:11-14

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised ." - Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 6:10-12

Just because you've been hired for the job doesn't mean you'll get paid. You have to actually do the work.

[edit on 13-12-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by FortAnthem
Jesus' death on the cross brought about the redemption of mankind from original sin. This made man once again worthy in God's eyes of being able to attain heaven.

Jesus' death on the cross had infinate value and was sufficient to atone for all of the sins of man past and present.

However, the forgiveness obtained for us on the cross only comes to those who accept Jesus as their lord and savior, ASK FOR FORGIVNESS and ammend to change their lives in the future.

Forgiveness is not automatic just by virtue of being a Christian.

edit for spelling

[edit on 12-12-2009 by FortAnthem]


You quite literally took the reply right ouf of my mouth. Simply to reiterate, Jesus' death forgave us of all "Original Sin", whereas by virtue of being imperfect mortals, we will undoubtedly commit other sins along the way, and it is for THOSE that we pray for forgiveness.

That latter point is extremely telling as well, because too many seem to abuse it at times. Take some Catholic Mexican gang banger for instance (I use it as an example, because I can recall the actual incident), and say he wears a Cross and calls himself a Christian. So this kid goes out and deals drugs, shoots rivals, and basically ruins any number of lives along the way. Then, he goes in to Confession at his Church, and he admits his sins, after which the Father has him go about "Hail Mary's" in order to show repent. Concluding this, the banger now believes his sins forgiven, yet the moment he walks out the door he begins the same sinful cycle all over again (With complete disregard for the Holy act which he just took part in no less).

Does this individual actually repent? Is he actually forgiven for his sins? Is he a true Christian? The answer to all three questions is NO. It is one thing to call yourself the follower of a Religion, but it is another thing entirely to actually follow its core tenets and beliefs, and to conduct your life accordingly.



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 02:37 AM
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Interesting question OP, i often ponder on this dilemma as well (i'm a messianic jew BTW). Perhaps the purpose of jesus's death was to give virtuous non-believers a shot at having a chance in heaven? That may not fully answer your question but it is a starting point i suppose.



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