Catholic Bishop; Let's call God Allah

reply to post by thoughtsfull

(from my experience the Roman Catholic Church tends to tell porky fibbers)..

Christianity itself appears to be built upon one lie after another with endless excuses for the lies.

It's no good blaming the Catholic church(the godfather of xtianity) the lies and misrepresentations are perpetuated by all flavors of xtian to suit their needs.

It's very tiresome to hear people slagging off the RCC for twisting or hiding the ,when those calling the kettle black fail miserably to present evidence of their wild claims.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

(from my experience the Roman Catholic Church tends to tell porky fibbers)..

Christianity itself appears to be built upon one lie after another with endless excuses for the lies.

It's no good blaming the Catholic church(the godfather of xtianity) the lies and misrepresentations are perpetuated by all flavors of xtian to suit their needs.

It's very tiresome to hear people slagging off the RCC for twisting or hiding the ,when those calling the kettle black fail miserably to present evidence of their wild claims.

Interesting, can I get this right, please cna you confirm if you are calling me a tiresome liar for saying my own church are liars???? if you are, that's funny

Well, if you want to know, I am here on ATS becuase of the RC church, as I am trying to understand why the RC taught me lies in school and in church, which basically boils down to being taught that Christianity arrived on these shores by the kind grace of pope Gregory at the hands of St Augustine of Canterbury in 597AD.. and that all British Christianity stems from this date and the kindness of Rome.

Which just misses out a few hundred years of Christianity and people like St Germanus of Auxere and his trip to Britain in 429AD to attempt to eradicate pelegiusim (a flavour of Christianity) Or St Albans Matryrdom in 209AD (exact date debated) or any of the other historical evidence that demonstrates I was lied to by my own church.

It is an outragous to teach children in Britain this falsehood.. I feel quite agrieved as to why my church, my school would perpetrate such lies in childrens minds, especially when they are so easy to disprove.. What is they are hiding? what agenda are they trying to promote by rewriting history?

I also find out that in my home town we have synagogues older than any RC church.. which makes the whole thing a bigger joke.

So can you explain why the RC should teach such lies to children, or are you going to saying I am lying???

Allah is a proper name.

As such, it doesn't fit the concept in Christianity and Judaism that the "real" name of God cannot be known.

Yahweh, Jehovah or that part of the Trinity are TITLES, not names.

Christians, Muslims, Jews, a Catholic Bishop, and several theology degree holders - Schooled by a Pagan.

Tsk Tsk.

Originally posted by Aeons
Allah is a proper name.

As such, it doesn't fit the concept in Christianity and Judaism that the "real" name of God cannot be known.

Yahweh, Jehovah or that part of the Trinity are TITLES, not names.

Not true. Please refer to this post from page one of this thread.

It is likely that the Arabic Allah was derived from the Hebrew names for god - El and Yah. From these we derive Elyah or Alyah.

El is from the solar image of god. Yah is from the lunar image of god, so Alyah or Allah is simply the Sun and Moon together as one. This can be seen on some Islamic, Star and Crescent imagery.


.

So, I can say, I beleive in Allah Zeus then?

Good. Thank you for clearing that up.

(Those immune to sarcasm, this post is dripping in it.)

[edit on 2009/12/15 by Aeons]

Originally posted by Aeons
So, I can say, I beleive in Allah Zeus then?

Good. Thank you for clearing that up.

You could. However, you would essentially be saying 'The (one true) God Zeus', which according to the belief system Zeus is deified in is not a monotheistic religion but a polytheistic religion. All the other gods of the Greek pantheon would probably be insulted that you were in essence denying their divinity. So while you could it would be an erroneous statement.

And yet I haven't seen another more obvious and more devious explanation for this proposal. As with many other religions, this church (what is now called the Catholic Church) has absorbed the belief system of the lesser religions. Thus they continue to grow in strength while adapting to the 'new craze' in religious fervor.

I don't see it happening though. The "MUSLIM" religion is quite set. It's just another way to DIVIDE the people.

Originally posted by Animal

Originally posted by Aeons
So, I can say, I beleive in Allah Zeus then?

Good. Thank you for clearing that up.

You could. However, you would essentially be saying 'The (one true) God Zeus', which according to the belief system Zeus is deified in is not a monotheistic religion but a polytheistic religion. All the other gods of the Greek pantheon would probably be insulted that you were in essence denying their divinity. So while you could it would be an erroneous statement.

Oh. Instead I could say, Allah Brahma or Allah Ra.

No? Ah. So God and Allah are NOT comparable.

Anyone who wants to go read the Koran, you'll not find that it says things like, "There is only one Allah, and Allah is your Allah."

Grammar matters.

[edit on 2009/12/15 by Aeons]

Originally posted by Aeons

Oh. Instead I could say, Allah Brahma or Allah Ra.

No. Both of these gods are from polytheistic religions.

No? Ah. So God and Allah are NOT comparable.

Yes they are.

Anyone who wants to go read the Koran, you'll not find that it says things like, "There is only one Allah, and Allah is your Allah."

Grammar matters.

This ignores the definition of the word ALLAH.

Main Entry: Al·lah
Pronunciation: \ˈä-lə, ˈa-lə, ˈä-ˌlä, ä-ˈlä\
Function: noun
Etymology: Arabic allāh
Date: 1584

: god 1a —used in Islam

Link

Al·lah (l, äl)
n.
God, especially in Islam.

Link

Allah (Arabic: الله‎, Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤːɑːh] ( listen)) is the standard Arabic word for God.

Link

Let me repeat what the above citations make plain:

Allah is the common WORD used for god by those of the Islamic faith. It is not the NAME of god only the word used to reference god.

reply to post by thoughtsfull

So can you explain why the RC should teach such lies to children, or are you going to saying I am lying???

I believe you may well have misunderstood what I was implying.
When I said I found it tiresome and pot calling kettle black.

I was referring to xtians (of a variety of flavors) that are forever slagging off the RCC, they also spend a great deal of energy slagging off the mormons (my favorites leave them alone lol) the jehovas etc etc.

So, nope I wasn't having a go at you personally although I'm willing to should you agree with such things as religion being taught in schools etc

There is only one God but there are different interpretations of God according to each religion. Why don't we call him God, the Universal King, the unifier of all souls, The creator of Man, Earth and Universe. Or God for short.

if they are the same (NOT) then lets call allah
Jesus
i doubt that would go over very well

God is the God of Love
www.biblegateway.com...
Muhammad is a known pedo hate monger killer
Was Muhammad a Pedophile? An Examination of Muhammad's Relationship with a Nine-Year-Old Girl
www.answeringinfidels.com... ar-old-girl.html
Muhammad and Aisha: Early Muslim writings attest that Muhammad had sexual relations with a 9-year old girl. Should this be a concern to those who hold Muhammad to be a model of holiness? (Click Here)

Mohammad: Quotes from the the prophet

Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”
Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”
Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”
Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”
Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
Ishaq:326 “Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth.”
Bukhari:V4B52N63 “A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Allah’s Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?’ The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam first and then fight.’ So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A Little work, but a great reward.’”
Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”
Muslim:C34B20N4668 “The Messenger said: ‘Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights.”
Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”
Muslim:C9B1N31 “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought.”
Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.’”
Qur’an:8:73 “The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”
Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us.”
Qur’an:48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”
Qur’an:48:22 “If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the

Originally posted by AmericanDaughter
if they are the same (NOT) then lets call allah
Jesus

Please try to explain this logic? Jesus is a NAME whereas in comparison both God and Allah are WORDS.

It is such a simple FACT - meaning that it can not be contested.

God = Allah - Allah = God.

lets call allah Jesus -i doubt that would go over very well

It sure wouldn't as it makes no sense. It would be like saying lets call Muhammad-God or Muhammad-Jesus (Although I think some religious scholars already do this?).

What you are failing to see is your opportunities for critiquing the idea presented. Namely that Christians should consider adopting the term Allah in place of God in order to alleviate hate and conflict.

You, and many before you, have asserted that God and Allah are not he same thing when technically they are - they are both WORDS used in reference to various religions 'one true god'. They are not names, they are titles.

You can make the claim that the Christian God and the Islamic God are two different deities. That these two deities are distinct. That they should not be confused with one another as they represent different sets of ideals. You could also assert that as a result of the facts found in the list above, or one like it, that calling the Christian God Allah would confuse the two deities and should be avoided for this reason.

The above paragraph is an example of the one type of argument you could form. Merely saying God does not equal Allah though is erroneous. Once this erroneous assertion is made clear the discussion can move on from debating obvious fact to the heart of the matter - why Christians should consider such a change or why they should not.


[edit on 15-12-2009 by Animal]

I'm no Bible scholar, but I definitely think it DOES matter. The God of Abraham and Moses is not called Allah. Moses asked God who he should say sent the 10 Commandments (back to the Jewish people at basin of Mount Sanai) and God said tell them I Am sent you. He didn't say tell them Allah sent you.

reply to post by Bombeni

I am the Lord your God

I the Lord your God am a jealous God

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

Exodus 20:2–17

Sounds to me more like God's name is Lord, but who am I to make such distinctions. What is very clear though is that the Lord is pointing out to Moses that he is the GOD of the Israelites, not that he is a deity named God.

I would be curious to hear arguments on why replacing God with Allah or even Allah with God would be either a good or bad thing based on an analysis of the issue.

Setting aside the argument that they are not the same thing (God and Allah are)(The God of Christianity and Islam are not) for what reasons would choosing to replace on of the titles or the other cause problems? Would the effects be on the 'believers'? On the deities? On the religions themselves?




[edit on 15-12-2009 by Animal]

reply to post by Animal


Jesus IS God
no two ways about it
allah and God are two seperates with seperate dogma and that is why God should Never be called allah
guess we have to agree to disagree

[edit on 15-12-2009 by AmericanDaughter]

reply to post by AmericanDaughter


Funny I am not sure what you think we disagree on. . .

The definition of a word or words?

I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic School. I went to church 2x's a week until my teens. I KNOW who Jesus is and I know who the God of the Christians is. I am not disputing this in any way.

I am trying to have a debate that moves beyond that trivial nature of the words used in reference to a set of religions Gods and have a meaningful discussion on the implications and the rational behind making one decision or the other.

Sadly I have, for the most part only been confronted by people who are too hung up on semantics to actually debate an idea.

Oh well.

reply to post by Animal


Sorry I misunderstood you

I don't think God should be called allah because they are two seperates with two seperate sets of beliefs

and am shocked a bishop would suggest otherwize