This is why most pilots don't talk about ufos

I thought it was interesting when UFO hunters covered British Airways pilot Ray Boyer's UFO sighting near Alderny. Boyers said he thought the UK regulations and culture about reporting sightings was perhaps different than in the US. He said UK pilots are required to report anything that may be a threat to air navigation so he felt like he was required to report his sighting, and apparently there's no gag order in place preventing him from talking about it because he talked about it quite openly.

That JANAP146e looks too old to still be in effect, does anyone know when it became obsolete (assuming it did) and what regulations have superceded it and what they say about UFO reporting?

I think the gist of the OP appears to be correct even if as Phage pointed out 146e does not include the penalty specifics, there were penalties provided for elsewhere.

Originally posted by RMFX1
If seeing UFO's was such a common occurence for pilots, then why would the millions of passengers who travel by air every year not be seeing them aswell?

When you fly, how much time do you spend looking out the windows? Also, at night, pretty much every window shade is closed until morning. Pilots are looking out the entire time. They also have a much better view than anyone in the back.

As was already said, the pilots rarely mention seeing anything because it immediately places their mental health in question with the airline and can cause permanent damage to their careers.

Originally posted by endisnighe

SECTION III - SECURITY 208. Military and Civilian. Transmission of CIRVIS reports are subject to the U.S. Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and the Canadian Radio Act of 1938, as amended. Any person who violates the provisions of these acts may be liable to prosecution thereunder. These reports contain information affecting the national defense of the United States and Canada. Any person who makes an unauthorized transmission or disclosure of such a report may be liable to prosecution under Title 18 of the US Code 793, Chapter 37, or the Canadian Official Secrets [|] Act of 1939, as amended. This should not be construed as requiring classification of CIRVIS [|] messages. The purpose is to emphasize the necessity for the handling of such information within official channels only.

Explain please.

I noticed that, so I went looking for US Code 793, and found it here (I think).

It's about "ESPIONAGE AND CENSORSHIP", and although it says:

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

that whole title appears (to me, and I am not a lawyer) to be just to someone who:

...for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

tries to gather information, get access to restricted areas, either for himself or for others, or someone that already has that information or access and gives it to another, either on purpose or through negligence.

Having read that, it looks to me that it only makes sense if they were expecting that the UFOs seen were US secrets, it doesn't mention not giving information about possible foreign objects in US airspace.

But this is just my interpretation.

There are probably more UFO sightings around the globe, than are ever reported, thing is you can probable put a bet on most of those that are reported are hoaxes, leaving the hundreds if not thousands that go unreported, no one knows how many, and why? because of ridicule or fear of what will happen to them if they dare report it, NO better to forget and go on with once normal life. thing there is it will always be in the back of their minds, until some day someone mentions it, and then they are able to share their experience. shame really,

oh and to say that there are no ridiculous laws, is also wrong, there are so many laws in the world that are so outrageous its amazing we can breath without getting in to trouble, here are just a few for fun, :0)

www.youtube.com...

I'm a professional airline pilot, and let me tell you there is NOTHING that states we have to keep quiet about UFO's there's been numerous times that my co-captain / co-pilot have reported objects that go from 0MPH to extreme speeds and stop. We've radioed in ATC and they simply check radar usually saying you guys are the only ones up there, explain the object and different questions. But they usually just document it and I don't know where the document goes after that. But there's not going to see a shrink or anything. Heck I actually got more hours after reporting a UFO. I've told my friends and family and they think it's pretty interesting to hear about these objects that resemble NO aerodynamic structure and stuff beyond our physics.

I used to be a pilot....a ground pilot.....as in a cab driver. I only say pilot because I have managed once to keep my cab off the ground for as long as the Wright Brothers did.

Anyway I have seen two UFOs during my time as a cab driver. I personally don't see how seeing a UFO in a cab or in a plane would e any different.

I did not get the urge to jump on the dispatch radio and inform my dispatcher that there was a huge triangular ship flying around. People see things they know are not normal planes and usually only tell people who are willing to listen, unless forced or required to.

The other UFO I saw was a red blinking light that kept pace with my cab at 70 mils an hour though some power lines. I know it was just a light and it was among the power lines because I crossed under them and viewed from the other side. Once I stopped my cab the light just went in the opposite direction.

I'm glad I did not follow it, I would have lost a 40 dollar fair.

[edit on 12-12-2009 by Izarith]

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by endisnighe

SECTION III - SECURITY 208. Military and Civilian. Transmission of CIRVIS reports are subject to the U.S. Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and the Canadian Radio Act of 1938, as amended. Any person who violates the provisions of these acts may be liable to prosecution thereunder. These reports contain information affecting the national defense of the United States and Canada. Any person who makes an unauthorized transmission or disclosure of such a report may be liable to prosecution under Title 18 of the US Code 793, Chapter 37, or the Canadian Official Secrets [|] Act of 1939, as amended. This should not be construed as requiring classification of CIRVIS [|] messages. The purpose is to emphasize the necessity for the handling of such information within official channels only.

Explain please.

I noticed that, so I went looking for US Code 793, and found it here (I think).

It's about "ESPIONAGE AND CENSORSHIP", and although it says:

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

that whole title appears (to me, and I am not a lawyer) to be just to someone who:

...for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

tries to gather information, get access to restricted areas, either for himself or for others, or someone that already has that information or access and gives it to another, either on purpose or through negligence.

Having read that, it looks to me that it only makes sense if they were expecting that the UFOs seen were US secrets, it doesn't mention not giving information about possible foreign objects in US airspace.

But this is just my interpretation.

The scope of the OP document says "This publication is limited to the reporting of information of vital importance to the security of the United States..." so if a UFO report is filed under that section then it seems to meet the "national security" criteria based on that scope. So if you start talking about that UFO (let's say you disclose that it appeared to be an alien craft which you saw pass over Alaska, which crashed in international waters between the US and Russia), and then if Russia recovers the alien craft and reverse engineers superweapons to use against the US, then it seems you have violated those sections even though it had nothing to do with a manmade craft.

reply to post by SuperSlovak


When I was in the Air Force from 1955 to 1959, one of the first things I familiarized myself with was JANAP 146 at the request of a Captain who loaned me my first UFO book by Adamski.

There have been changes to that publication through the years. Civilian pilots are not subject to military orders. Whether they are similarly restricted as part of their contracts with the airlines is another thing but I doubt it.

When I used to fly as a passenger I would always give my business card to the steward(ess). I wrote on my business card that I was a UFO researcher and had my camera ready for use. I requested of the pilot to inform me if they saw anything out of the ordinary while in the air and to invite me to the cockpit to photograph whatever they were seeing. I was never called but I was invited a couple of times to the cockpit prior to takeoff and I have very pleasant conversations with the crew including some telling me that they wished I had been aboard on other flights.

An airplane crew, particularly pilot, copilot and navigator, are sort-of a closed team so they will share with each other what they're witnessing. Once out of the plane, though, some will be tightlipped so that their reputations are not damaged in any way by speaking about something that only they saw.

Police cars have videocams attached to the dashboards and there is no reason why airplanes should also not have some form of recording device not just for UFOs but for whatever could happen on a flight such as the recent landing in the Hudson river.

reply to post by Arbitrageur

I see something different in that paragraph (surprise). It specifically says that the reports are are not to be considered classified, just that they must be routed through channels. If, after going through the proper channels, the report is not deemed to be classified information, there would be nothing preventing someone from talking about it. This also means that if no report is filed at all (by civilians) there is no legal recourse on the part of the government.



[edit on 12/13/2009 by Phage]

reply to post by Phage
While that may be true, it's unclear to me how that feedback as to whether it was deemed classified or not would find its way back to the person making the report, and in the absence of that feedback it seems like assuming it could be classified would not be a gross misinterpretation.

Originally posted by bagari

Originally posted by RMFX1
If seeing UFO's was such a common occurence for pilots, then why would the millions of passengers who travel by air every year not be seeing them aswell?

When you fly, how much time do you spend looking out the windows? Also, at night, pretty much every window shade is closed until morning. Pilots are looking out the entire time. They also have a much better view than anyone in the back.

As was already said, the pilots rarely mention seeing anything because it immediately places their mental health in question with the airline and can cause permanent damage to their careers.

I fly quite often, and if I fly during the day then I spend quite a lot of time looking out of the window. During night flights I look out of the window from time to time but you have to bare in mind that there are many people on the same plane and it's not really much of a stretch to think that theres probably atleast one passenger looking out of the window on each side at any one time. If this sort of thing was happening, be it often or not, it would be seen by someone else onboard.

Also, pilots do not look out of the window the entire time during commercial flights. It's such an automated process these days that they do not need to do so.

Keep in mind that the usage of the term Unidentified Flying Objects in these papers are meant in the literal sense, not the generally accepted UFOs=Alien craft sense.

In other words, if a pilot sees something he can't identify those procedures come into effect. Not just for aliens (which wouldn't be identifiable either way from a cockpit).

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with JANAP 146 but pilots can get in trouble for talking about ufos...

the pilot and camera guy were put on gag order and had their camera equipment confiscated but not before hiding one of the tapes.

www.avimoas.com...

90% huh? Well the 10 years in prison seems like a pretty good reason not to talk.

reply to post by SuperSlovak

It has nothing to do with anything, because it's a fake, as previously seen on ATS.

Originally posted by Tzsephanyahu
I'm wondering. Maybe most pilots don't talk about ufo's cause maybe most pilots never seen a UFO?

Lots of pilots report UFOs.

Eighty Years of Pilot UFO sightings.





There is also some interesting reading at the link below regarding USAF pilot UFO reporting policy:

Paragraph 9 explicitly states that, in the area of occurrence, only explained cases may be released to the public:

"In response to local inquiries resulting from any UFO reported in the vicinity of an Air Force base, information regarding a sighting may be released to the press or the general public by the commander of the Air Force base concerned only if it has been positively identified as a familiar or known object." Follow-up queries about unexplained cases are to be referred to the Office of Information Services in the Pentagon (which seldom releases detailed information on a specific case unless it has been widely publicized).

Paragraph 11 restricts Air Force personnel from publicly discussing UFOs:

"Air Force personnel, other than those of the Office of Information Services, will not contact private individuals on UFO cases nor will they discuss their operations and functions with unauthorized persons unless so directed, and then only on a 'need-to-know' basis."

www.nicap.org...

Cheers.

reply to post by karl 12



"Air Force personnel, other than those of the Office of Information Services, will not contact private individuals on UFO cases nor will they discuss their operations and functions with unauthorized persons unless so directed, and then only on a 'need-to-know' basis."

thanks Karl12 that's the tidbit of information I was looking for. Says it all in black and white.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
thanks Karl12 that's the tidbit of information I was looking for. Says it all in black and white.

No probs matey - theres more info posted in this thread about USAF rules and other interesting reading regarding FAA procedure.

I also think ridicule plays a huge role in the reluctance of experienced pilots to come foward with credible UFO reports - Nick Pope makes a revealing statement about the RAF below:

"Certainly when I socialized with my RAF colleagues, I would find that they were a little bit more receptive to the idea of UFOs--and by that I mean perhaps even an extraterrestrial explanation for this -- than you might have supposed. One of the reasons for that was that so many RAF pilots had actually seen things themselves. Many of them have never made an official report. I had one chap tell me that he had seen something over the North Sea. I asked him why he hadn't reported it, and he said, 'I don't want to be known as Flying Saucer Fred for the rest of my career.'"

Nick Pope - Head of the "UFO desk" at Air Secretariat 2-A, British Ministry of Defence from 1991-1994

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Richard Dolan discussing the history of JANAP-146 in his book ´UFOs and the National Security State´:

On February 13th (1954), Jim G. Lucas of Scripps Howard reported that representatives of major airlines were planning to meet in Los Angleles with intelligence officers of the Military Air Transport Service.
The purpose was to speed up UFO reporting procedures. Lucas wrote that airline pilots were reporting large numbers of UFOs during their flights and were now being asked "not to discuss their sightings publicly or give them to newspapers".
Lucas had accurate information. On February 17th 1954 ,officers of the Military Transport Intelligence met with officials of the Airline Pilots Union at the Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood.
The goal of the meeting was to implement JANAP 146,specifically to arrange for pilots to radio UFO reports to the nearest airport and make no public statements about them.Violations brought prison terms of up to ten years and/or a fine of $10,000.

Scripps Howards papers followed up on February 23rd to report that
"the nation´s 8,500 commercial airline pilot have been seeing a lot of unusual objects while flying at night, here and overseas".
It confirmed that plans for a detailed reporting system were agreed upon to enable the air force to investigate UFOs quickly.
Each airline had an internal security specialist to meet with the Air Force.

Major Donald Keyhoe also makes some very interesting comments about JANAP-146 in his letter to U.S. President Harry Truman:

On February 3, 1959, retired Major Donald E. Keyhoe, Director of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP), writes to former President Harry Truman about UFOs.The three page letter with attachments argues that there is a UFO cover-up and press censorship then describes the legal regulations (AFR 200-2 and JANAP 146) that officially invokes espionage laws in relation to both military and civilian pilots reporting UFOs.
Here is a sampling of some quotations: "One of our aims is to expose frauds; another is to convince the press and public that this is a serious problem despite the ridicule...caused by the official debunking policy, which is now used to obscure the concerned and intensive investigation of Air Force and other agencies," or "There is a mass of evidence supporting our claims as to UFO reality and official censorship," or "As Admiral Hillenkoetter told me some time ago, the only way to break the secrecy is by means of open hearings on Capitol Hill."

PDF File

Interesting article about pilot censorship taken from Terry Hansen's book 'The Missing Times':

In 1954, airline companies were urged at a meeting in Los Angeles to forward these official intelligence reports in response to a dramatic increase in UFO sightings. (At that time, UFO reports were said by one military official to be coming in at the rate of 5 to 10 a night from pilots.) Many airline pilots who had UFO sightings were not happy about being silenced by military security regulations. As Aldrich put it, "In 1958 John Lester of the Newark Star-Ledger started a petition on which airline pilots who reported UFOs could register their displeasure with not being able to talk about their UFO sightings because of possible violation of [the] security provision of JANAP 146."

According to an article about the protest by reporter Lester in the December 22, 1958, Star-Ledger, a group of 50 airline pilots, each of whom had reported one or more UFO sightings, blasted the Air Force censorship policy as "bordering on the absolutely ridiculous." The pilots said they all had been interrogated by Air Force officials following their UFO sightings and had become disgusted and frustrated with Air Force methods. As one pilot reportedly put it, "We are ordered to report all UFO sightings but when we do we are usually treated like incompetents and told to keep quiet." Another said he was disgusted when the Air Force told him the object that had paced his aircraft for 15 minutes was a mirage or a bolt of lighting. "Nuts to that," he said. "Who needs it?" An additional 400 airline pilots later added their names to the protest petition, though with little effect.

Thus, although JANAP 146 was not intended as a censorship tool, it had that result because many commercial pilots in the 1950s filed official UFO reports and consequently these reports became classified and remain so today. What is less clear is the long-term effect that JANAP 146 had on airline-company policies about reporting UFO sightings to the press. According to Aldrich, "If pilots can't talk about sightings then there had to be an effect."

There seems to be little doubt that, in 1958 at least, the major airline companies were under pressure from the U.S. Air Force to keep their pilots silent about UFO sightings. Reporter John Lester of the Star-Ledger reported that protesting airline pilots had asked that their names be withheld from publication because their employers, "at Air Force insistence," had directed them to say nothing to the news media. One pilot said his employer had refused permission for him to appear on a national telecast. Another said he was ordered to "cease and desist" after two such media appearances.

Link