Recent thoughts on Egypt

I travelled to Egypt in 1999 and extensively visited all the 'tourist' sites, ending up with a few days at the Pyramids and Sphinx in Giza. I recently went through the photos again, scanning them and showing them to my wife. After a few years 'out of the loop', it has really got me thinking.

I stood in the King's Chamber, observed the entrance to the infamous 'shafts', saw the Sphinx, Temple of Karnac and all the rest, and in honesty, was in awe. However, on reflection, all I can say is that the difference between the Pyramids at Giza as a whole, let alone the 'King's' Chamber and Grand Gallery in the Great Pyramid, in comparison to say the insides of the tombs in the Valley Of The Kings, which allegedly served the same purposes, could not be more extreme.

They really are a magnitude apart in terms of design, construction, decoration, and complexity. I really can't stress this enough. The fully decorated remains of the Valley of Kings tombs, partially collapsed and full of rubble, against the stark minimalist, perfectly immense construction of the Pyramids. They are like chalk and cheese.

The impression I got was that the Pyramids, and one or 2 of the other older monuments such as the Valley Temple in Giza, feel like they are a much, much older than anything else in Egypt. So much so, that I would say they were made by different civilisations!

Which brings me to my recent ruminations... If I were to go out on a limb, from what I saw, the works of the later Dynasties of Egypt seem to have had the sole aim of copying these older structures, with the skill and know-how gradually decreasing over time. To go from the pyramids of the Giza plateau to the Step Pyramid and the Bent Pyramids shows a serious regression craftsmanship over time when there should logically have been a increase in knowledge over time.

It brings me to an interesting conclusion, and I can see 2 real possibilities:

1) The 'older' structures in Egypt were built by another more ancient civilisation, and them appropriated and copied by the 'Ancient Egyptians'.

2) Egypt was a culture that appeared 'fully formed' seemingly overnight, with advanced scientific and engineering skills, immediately built it's greatest monuments, and then began a long, slow decline...

While both options give a lot of food for thought, the second option offers some perplexing questions, not least of which - if the Egyptian race did appear seemingly overnight, at a peak of development, where did it come from?

I am not one for Atlantis, Aliens or anything else, but in honesty, I am really wondering if this the (or a) 'truth' that the Egyptian authorities and Hawass are really trying to keep quiet.

Just wondering if anyone else has visited the sites, or has had similar thoughts or perspective though seeing the monuments on TV or in books?

Very interesting. I wonder if they are so much older because of the amount of time it took to make these massive monuments.

-E-

There is a strong theory that Khufu appropriated the Great Pyramid for his use, and that it was a far older structure.

Could the Sumerians have built it? From what I can tell, that topic seems to be a touchy subject with Egyptians. I can see Hawass hiding that secret if it's true.

The ancient name for the planet Mars, is Cairo. I just thought I would post this here since its about Egypt

Thank you. Feels nice to have a real, fresh, unbiased perspective on Egypt for once. I'd like to go one day myself, but we'll see.

By the way, is it true that they actually put a McDonald's by the plateau?

I was there in 2004/2005 and the main thing that struck me was I couldn't believe the same people I met there built those things. I spent 2 months and got to know the people and places pretty well.
The temple at karnak does seem to match the pyramids in grandeur tho, at least parts of it.
I also made it to Fayoum (oasis where the labyrinth of herodotus may have been found recently). The ruins there were mostly Roman and Greek but it had the older feel to it somehow.

Apparently, there are some theories that the Sphinx was not made by the Egyptians but from a civilization much older - since you can find water erosion at the bottom of the creation. However, there are some theories that whoever made the Sphinx in fact left some blueprints for others to build the Pyramids at there exact location so it would look at its own reflection in the sky. I think that this is one of the theories from Robert Buvaul?

Ah sorry for going off topic here.

They are much older, Plato was initiated in them as was every high priest from the time of Hermes Trismurgistus, 3 days they layed in the sarcophogus of the king and when they exited the pyramid they were transformed into gods. read up on Freemasonry and youll understand EVERYTHING accomplished throughout the ancient times was to control the population of profane in order for the Elite to be able to live without CARE.

No different today, Bohemian Grove, Cremation of Care. Takes place on midsummer solstice just as it did at stonehenge. Though in the time of Stonehenge HUMAN SACFIFICE took place now they use an effigy.

Mind you even the high priest during thier initiation recieved commands from the Hierophant, or Supreme Master of the School, whose identity was known to very few. Even the Pharoe was unaware who really ran the school. Hence, the Mystery.

Originally posted by nethawk
Thank you. Feels nice to have a real, fresh, unbiased perspective on Egypt for once. I'd like to go one day myself, but we'll see.

By the way, is it true that they actually put a McDonald's by the plateau?

It is well worth seeing, I was constantly in awe of some of the place, with even some of the smaller sites being breathtaking.

As for McDonalds, I am sad to say... it is quite possibly true, although it will have been after I was there. In fact, I was seriously disappointed with the Giza Plateau, and felt very deceived...

All the pictures I had seen were of the Pyramids, Sphinx etc with a desert backdrop. I assumed that they were set apart from Cairo and the built up area, and a way out in the desert. The pictures confirmed this. However, Cairo has expanded to build around them, almost encircling them... All photos if you notice are taken from the same direction, the only direction that allows them to have a desert backdrop; if the angle was reversed, you would have the whole of Cairo in your picture.

When I was there it was so bad that about 250/300m max or so in front of the Sphinx, you have the 'visitor centre' complete with cafe, light show seating etc. About 50/100m behind this you had a Pizza Hut, KFC, McD and a long line of fast foot restaurants. The gaze of the Sphinx does not gaze on the greatness of the Egyptian civilisation, but on these edifices of food capitalism.

This site shows the view of the Sphinx and Pyramids from Pizza Hut: members.virtualtourist.com...

Sorry if this breaks any illusions! In honesty however, I was so ill with food poisoning when I was there, I was really glad to get a pizza in Pizza Hut... /runs for cover.

Originally posted by Fraank Fontaine
Which brings me to my recent ruminations... If I were to go out on a limb, from what I saw, the works of the later Dynasties of Egypt seem to have had the sole aim of copying these older structures, with the skill and know-how gradually decreasing over time. To go from the pyramids of the Giza plateau to the Step Pyramid and the Bent Pyramids shows a serious regression craftsmanship over time when there should logically have been a increase in knowledge over time.

Uhm... Last time I checked, both the step pyramid and the bent pyramid predate the great pyramid. The Egyptians knew the bent pyramid was a failure and it was immedietly replaced by a better pyramid - the red pyramid.

So they certainly had some trial and error before the great pyramid.

Time to first read this, and then buy the book

It will explain almost everything.

YES I am a GOOD site!!

have fun!

greetings Lunica

Originally posted by Fraank Fontaine
To go from the pyramids of the Giza plateau to the Step Pyramid and the Bent Pyramids shows a serious regression craftsmanship over time when there should logically have been a increase in knowledge over time.
...

Just wondering if anyone else has visited the sites, or has had similar thoughts or perspective though seeing the monuments on TV or in books?

Errr... the Step Pyramid and Bent Pyramid are OLDER than Giza pyramids. Step Pyramid is the oldest, built by Djoser and his architect Imhotep. Bent Pyramid was built by Sneferu (who was rather pyramid-happy and built two or three of royal pyramids - including the Red Pyramid - as well as some regional pyramids).

Sneferu's son was Khufu, builder of the Great Pyramid at Giza (Khufu's Ahket). After him came Djedefre (whose pyramid is in ruins on a section of plateau slightly higher than the main Giza Plateau), then came Khafre who built a pyramid plus surrounding complex. Finally there came Menkaura, who built the third of the Giza pyramid complexes.

Shepsekaf (his successor, who reigned only 4 years) began the tradition of building mastaba tombs at the new regional center of Saqqua. Userkaf went back to building pyramids but we can't say much about the style as his is in almost complete ruins. Sahure followed him, and Neferirkare who both had pyramids (both monuments are in bad shape though Sahure's has a beautiful temple complex associated with it).

Then came Neferare, who only lived a little longer than a year, and the decision was made to change his pyramid into another shape since his reign had been so brief. Nisurre also had a pyramid, as did Menkauhor and Djedkare (whose pyramid complex had two pyramids in it as well as some truncated pyramid buildings.)

Unas comes next; his is the first pyramid to have some "spells" of what were later collected into a book called "the Pyramid Texts" and other inscriptions related to the afterlife written in the mortuary temples of the complex. He's followed by Teti (who has a whole pyramid complex along with mastabas of his high officials).

Userkare (suspected of murdering Teti) had a brief reign and there was no pyramid.

Well... there's lots more, but basically while the pyramids got a bit smaller and less labor intensive, the associated chapels and morturary complexes got much larger and more elaborate.

So... I think you've got things out of order, there. The Gizamids weren't the first and after them, the buildings in the complexes around them become more sophisticated and complex.

Really, there's not much you can do to a pyramid to make it more elaborate or complex with the stone and so forth they had. Instead, the architectural improvements and elaboration happen in the buildings associated with the pyramid complex -- mortuary chapels and so forth.

My personal opinion is that the temples of Ramses with their 70 foot tall statues are far more complex, and the temple of Hatshepsut is also another tribute to the excellent architecture that kept on developing in the centuries after the Gizamids.

IMHO, of course.

Originally posted by Fraank Fontaine
All the pictures I had seen were of the Pyramids, Sphinx etc with a desert backdrop. I assumed that they were set apart from Cairo and the built up area, and a way out in the desert. The pictures confirmed this. However, Cairo has expanded to build around them, almost encircling them...

Cairo has always been close to the pyramids. A number of important monuments associated with the pyramid complexes are known to be buried under some of the encroaching houses.

The fact that China and South America both have Pyramids also makes me think the Eqyptian Pyramids were constructed by a older civilization.

On your point about Egypt building its civilisation overnight(metaphorically of course) I tend to agree. It really does seem amazing how civilisation just props up so rapidly around the world in Sumeria, Egypt, India and China as soon as soon as we come out of the ice age, as if they all had prior knowledge on how to start up civilisation.

My theory is that there was civilisation on this planet before the ice age began, and after the ice age began humans were forced into hunter-gatherer life styles and lived in caves with only an oral tradition to remember their past civilisation by and then as soon as the ice age is over, they are able to quickly setup civilisation again from their oral tradition. That is the only way explanation that floats for me and explains why civilisation appeared so suddenly.

Originally posted by BlackPoison94
Apparently, there are some theories that the Sphinx was not made by the Egyptians but from a civilization much older - since you can find water erosion at the bottom of the creation. However, there are some theories that whoever made the Sphinx in fact left some blueprints for others to build the Pyramids at there exact location so it would look at its own reflection in the sky. I think that this is one of the theories from Robert Buvaul?

Ah sorry for going off topic here.

Some people also theorize that the Sphinx originally had a lion head and was made 10,000-12,000 years ago (older than the pyramids), but Khafre re-cut the face to match his face. That might explain how the Sphinx was old enough to have water erosion, but yet the face matches that of a more recent Pharaoh. At one time, Egypt had a more temperate climate, and the desert was smaller. Some believe that there is a Hall of Records or some kind of chamber under the Sphinx. There is also some evidence of the Sphinx being painted, since paint residue was found in the stones.

Before Egypt was united by Narmer or Menes, there were the Upper and Lower Kingdoms. The Lower Kingdom, or Ta-Mehu, was in the North, and the Upper Kingdom, or Ta-Shemau, was in the South. They are given these Egyptian names after already being unified, and the words Upper and Lower refer to the direction of the Nile (like upstream and downstream, since the Nile flows North). Upper Egypt also has a higher elevation than Lower Egypt. Giza and Cairo are in Lower Egypt. There is very little information about Egypt before this unification, but the Egyptians claimed that the Gods ruled in those days.

en.wikipedia.org...
The Turin King List contains the names of many rulers, including Egyptian Gods who were thought to rule Egypt. Perhaps these entities (human or otherwise), referred to as Gods by the Egyptians built the Sphinx. Maybe the Egyptians thought that only Gods had that kind of knowledge, so they considered them to be Gods.

There is proof that some people in the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (previously thought to be a made-up myth) are real, so anything is possible.

Slightly off-topic:
en.wikipedia.org...

This list omits the names of many pharaohs who were 'erased' from this revised history — such as Hatshepsut, Akhenaten, Smenkhkare, Tutankhamen, and Ay.

Egyptians also invented the practice of rewriting history, called "obliteration." Queen Hatshepsut was a woman Pharaoh, and Akhenaten invented his own religion, so the Egyptians tried to erase them from history. It would be like the United States government destroying all records of a woman President, or a President who was a Scientologist. The Egyptians even erased the records of invaders ruling. But the Sumerians did no such thing. Kug-Bau was a woman ruler of Sumer. The Gutians were disliked invaders. Both are still listed in Sumerian King Lists.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
The fact that China and South America both have Pyramids also makes me think the Eqyptian Pyramids were constructed by a older civilization.

en.wikipedia.org...
It seems that many cultures built pyramids. I've heard of Sumerian ziggurats and South American pyramid temples, but just found out about the Chinese pyramids. They were used as tombs. The Sumerian ziggurats and South American pyramids were used as temples with staircases running to the top, but Chinese and Egyptian pyramids had no staircase and were used for burying rulers.

www.youtube.com...
The Chinese pyramids were made of dirt and some of them were covered with grass.

en.wikipedia.org...
Some of these "mythological" Emperors of China were buried in pyramid mausoleums. This is further proof of true myths.

reply to post by Fraank Fontaine


i was there in '06 and i agree with you 100%
it is so obvious they are not tombs. not a single painting inside of the pyramids. you go to a known kings tomb and the walls are covered in paintings telling about how awesome the king was and how powerful.

there is a video i watched last night called the "pyramid code". if you ever have a chance you should watch it. many people have some very intresting theories about them and their true age, but it appears that the knowledge of them is still trying to be hidden to this day. i remeber the egyptologist who took us on the tour telling us the official story and thinking to myself "this is a load of crap"

anyone with an ounce of observation can see huge diffrence between the insides of the pyramids and the inside of a known kings tomb. there is also an obvious loss of knowledge in egypt as time went on in general, so it makes sense that egypt started as super advanced, degraded to impressive, and well now days, well youve seen the architecture of modern cairo so you know where im going with this line of thought.

but in short the farther back you go the more advanced masr was.
things are still being hidden to this day.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
On your point about Egypt building its civilisation overnight(metaphorically of course) I tend to agree. It really does seem amazing how civilisation just props up so rapidly around the world in Sumeria, Egypt, India and China as soon as soon as we come out of the ice age, as if they all had prior knowledge on how to start up civilisation.

They don't, actually. In each of those areas there are settlements going back far beyond the 5,000 year limit (7,000 years is fairly standard) and we see the rise from small settlements to villages to cities.

My theory is that there was civilisation on this planet before the ice age began, and after the ice age began humans were forced into hunter-gatherer life styles and lived in caves with only an oral tradition to remember their past civilisation by and then as soon as the ice age is over, they are able to quickly setup civilisation again from their oral tradition. That is the only way explanation that floats for me and explains why civilisation appeared so suddenly.

If they had organized into countries and cities (civilization), the ice ages would not have offered much of a problem to them nor would it have changed their lifestyles (beyond relocating some of their cities. The ice age lasted many thousands of years and wasn't a "flash freeze." Things gradually got colder and the global climate changed, getting colder and colder for about 8,000 years. The depths of the ice age was about 24,000 years ago and lasted for about 14,000 years. Earth warmed slowly after that.

So there wasn't a sudden disaster where everyone woke up under 10 miles of glaciers overnight and the climate stayed like that. Winter gradually came earlier and earlier, plants in the south thrived better than those in the north, herds moved with the plants, and predators followed the herds. Over a single human life span of 35 years (in those days) you couldn't tell it was getting colder without a thermometer although you might notice that the berry crop wasn't very good by the end of your lifetime.

seemingly overnight? i swear that their empire was around for thousands of years. which would be older than U.S.A and some countries.