Originally posted by MOTT the HOOPLE
God! I'm so sick of hearing about bloody swine flu!

"Comments on the Comments"

The discussion is excellent. Again, I understand folks thinking I am not as knowledgeable in the virology as one might like; I also agree that my approach to the Conspiracy issue is limited. It relates to what I know, I do not know what I do not know. That said, I have tried to be clear...if I think I am in a position because of background to understand real ways the government operates in biological intelligence, and others disagree, that is fine. And, mostly, I am really interested in this topic as said in the last segment, to try and find out if there are any "C-3" sources that have non-public data I can investigate. If not, so be it. I promised that was where I was going to put most of my attention in the next few months, and it is.

In the short-term, here are some answers to some of the questions that may help a bit.

I have no allegiances to the AMA: I am not a member because I disagree with more of their precepts than I agree with. I have allegiance to my government.

Some of the data that is "hard" I do believe, and there is some data (discussed in the interview) that is also hard that is contradictory. I deal with ambiguities in Forensic Medicine daily. This is the stuff from which conspiracies of fact are honestly made.

I wasn’t reading from anything, and if my body language seemed stilted, sorry. Actually, everything I said was the truth to the best I understand it.

I think the Ukrainian story is legitimate. I don’t know if it mutated there, we do know it mutated in a laboratory in 1976 in the US. It mutates several times a year. But, the Ukrainian issue is another matter. I can’t get straight answers from the media, yet, and so I am very suspicious. Not necessarily of an "evil" conspiracy to intentionally manipulate the virus...I just don’t believe that is scientifically likely. But, I believe in conspiracies of the intellectually challenged and the mendacity of people, for sure.

I agree fully that I said nothing new. I am surely not in denial. One area we can agree on, is that I do not know people (and I know many hundreds) in the pharmaceutical industry who could/would do the "dark" deed that many fear. That’s the truth. Are there others that are evil I do not know? Are they smarter than I see? Maybe. I doubt it, and others can fairly doubt my doubts. But I can only speak to what I know, or suspect based on reasonable data.

I was only threatened once in my career, and this was not the subject. I used to really believe more than I do now about body language and NLP...since some folks on the thread claim to be qualified, and say I was in denial, and lying...I am not so sure I believe in BL and NLP as much any longer: they are wrong. I actually was relaxed, and told the truth the whole time. The questions, however, about my openly disclosed background and biases are fair: they are what they are, and I am what I am. If that means folks will not trust me...believe me, I understand. I am sorry about that, but I surely understand. I also don’t a priori trust many lawyers and bankers, and I know that I am also being unfair to them.

Yes, the H1N1 really is over-hyped, but mostly in hindsight to the extent the fears that reassortment might result quickly in increased lethality didn’t turn out. We knew that was unlikely, the medical community erred way on the side of "worst case" thinking.

Why?

In part because while the lethality is so much lower than across the board than regular seasonal flu...it is still significant; and importantly, is worse for younger people who didn’t have any herd immunity prior to 1976. And, we still do not know why some people are affected even when they have decent immune systems. Since there are more people getting sick...there are already 7-10,000 who have died from H1N1; sure, this isn’t the 40,000 who die every year from the seasonal flu...but it is high, and may approach the higher mortality, even as the morbidity remains relatively low. And side effects are a confounder.

I want to find the really serious side effects of shock, later neuropathology, and death that are being talked about, So far, I haven’t found a physician I can look at in the eye who tells me they have such a case, and I am talking to the "physicians in the street." Again...as I said...that is my expertise, and that is where I turn my attention...and have asked ATS to find a way consistent with medical ethics and privacy to help me find such cases.

I was also concerned that my answers were overly general and none-specific. That is why I didn’t have a prepared text and didn’t read from notes. I didn’t know the questions ahead of time, except very generally. And Springer will attest that I said many, many times...just ask what you want. But I did talk too long, rant too much, and while I was never interrupted...perhaps should have been. But that’s why I promised ATS I would at least read the first several days of the responses and try to answer any additional questions they send me.

The fact I may "underestimate the power of the elite" is important, and I need to really worry about that. That is a good point.

I was obviously less than clear about getting vaccinated. I have not been, and am not of an age where I am in the high-risk population. If more vaccine becomes available, I will not get vaccinated, because I already have herd immunity, and feel that for me the risk of a neurodegenerative disease approaches the level for which I can be vigilant: I can avoid getting infected by diligence.

My family members have been vaccinated if they are under 12 years of age, are pregnant, or have compromised immune systems. I fear the aquiline and thimerosol, and it makes me explain o them downsides for the mist and the multivalent.

I was on the Golf War Mystery Illness Commission of the IOM, and wrote an appendix with the then Chair of Epidemiology of a large medical school, arguing that we believed the hypothesis that genetically sensitive individuals were at multiple risks from contaminants in the environment, and the multivalent vaccines put them at greater risk. I believed that then, and I believe it now. So, several persons who have said I believe otherwise haven’t read the Academy of Sciences report to which I contributed this. Not all member of the Commission agreed with us, but we were allowed to publish it, it was peer-reviewed and published.

My findings are reported entirely though the National Academy of Science, the Institute of Medicine, and the National Research Council, through the numerous boards and studies on which I serve. I am listed in them all, and all are peer-reviewed by the academy. There have been about 20 studies since the Gulf war. I do not write or publish alone on this subject. My views are reported by me, debated, and written and included or peer-reviewed out. So far, on this subject, nothing has been peer-reviewed out, but often I see my opinions in footnotes and appendices.

I appreciate the reference to Dr. William Deagle: I am well aware of his views, and worry about them. I consider him an A-3 source, and so I really need to pay more attention to him. In the past, I just haven’t felt all he says his logical, but a lot is. Thanks for the boot to pay more attention.

I also need to read more of the excellent A-3 source from Reuters, Benjamin Himschler, who had written over 100 articles on the biopolitics of H1N1. And especially, I want to know more from Zimmer and Burke, and Jane Burgermeister. But again: my real interest has to be in finding clinical data of harm from the vaccine.

I didn’t mean to leave the question about the 1976 vaccine sample unanswered. My answer is that it is believed with some degree of confidence that the strain was released from a US laboratory. It is not known what lab. It is not known if it was intentional.

That said: there are thousands of releases of all kinds of organisms from B1-and B2 labs all the time. They are sent in the mail...thousands a year all over the world, too. To me, it is amazing we don’t have more releases. I know that there is suspicion that this release was intentional, but I have never been given a single piece of evidence as to why this is believed. I would love to have it, because that would falsify my hypothesis that there is a logical and non-evil reason for the spread. It would also mean that the several members of this thread who claim evil is being done by smarter people than I think reside in many places, are right...and that I am wrong.


I agree that the attenuated vaccines are far more riskier, and that genetically susceptible and immunocompromised persons are at even greater risk, and that they have not been adequately tested, and that the risk while lower than getting H1N1 and death for those people are higher...they are still important. I only recommend the nasal mist for a specific population of likely to be exposed healthy children and for any child with any respiratory or other illness only by injection. I guess I really screwed that answer up royally on the interview, and hope this helps.

The side effects I mean by serious are NOT limited to sudden effects: later neuropathological effects are critical, and many do not occur for 5 days to three weeks (i.e. GBS). Sudden serious effects would be shock and death. Nor woozy-ness and nausea...which occur in 30% of all young populations for all doctor contacts with injections of any kind.

I think the discussion so far has been great. I only ask that folks recall that my only real interests are two:

1) Unexplained clinical morbidity and mortality from the vaccine: that is what started my interest, and why I am now focusing on that exclusively.

2) Evidence that real people have suffered from the above, and for which I can have access and data to their primary care physicians.

Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green, MD, PhD, FAAFS