The Pagan Origin Of Christmas: Jesus Was Not Born On December 25th But Some Pagan Gods were!

reply to post by Annee


Thanks for the www.religioustolerance.org... link
Interesting stuff

I find debates like this interesting, I hope I can add something, here in Sussex (and elsewhere in England) we still celebrate the 12th night (5th/6th Januray) and the old 12th night (16th/17th January)

The English christmas Carol "The Cherry tree" c1600AD Joseph asks Jesus when he will be Born and he gives the date of January 6th.
www.youtube.com...
at 2:50

In England we still hold the both customs of Wassailing, one of Christmas carols and the other wassailing the apple trees.. (which in Sussex is also known as apple howling) again pre-christian origin dating back to perhaps 450AD in England and further elsewhere..

Wassailing is also carried out on both the 12th and old 12th nights, and includes singing to the trees. So for many centuries both traditions were carried out simultaniously, while the move to the 25th Dec has now seperated both customs.

Even the word wassail derives from the Old English words wæs (þu) hæl or middle English wæs hæil which means variously ‘be thee hale, healthy' is also a phrase linked to Christmas.. and again is an Old English pre-Christian tradition.

Then you have the drink itself Wassail which is also a pre-Christian drink and is closely linked to both traditions.

I grew up knowing 3 dates for the birth of Jesus, the 25th Dec, 6th january and 17th January.

Edit to add: So the 25th Dec has always appeard to me to be only a modern convenient date.

Hope this adds a little something of interest.

[edit on 15/12/09 by thoughtsfull]

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Thank you.

I found that incredibly interesting.

I too love these "learning" discussions.

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

Thank you.

I found that incredibly interesting.

I too love these "learning" discussions.

Your very welcome, the only way I know about the Old 12th night is simply becuase it is still celibrated here in Sussex... there are people here who still gumpy about moving the dates and cling to the old 12th night tradtions.. Especailly around wassailing..

I guess that's why Rudyard Kiplin wrote his poems about grumpy, angry moaning Saxons here in Sussex

Originally posted by x2Strongx
The Pagan Origin Of Christmas

So if Christians do the things the "Pagans" do wouldn't that make them Pagans too? Would their god be the god of the ones they call the heathen?

[edit on 15-12-2009 by The Riley Family]

reply to post by The Riley Family

I know you didn't direct your reply to me but if you go back to one of my earlier posts, you will see that I tried to quell the delusion of Pagans having numerous 'God(s)' ... whatever religion you follow and whatever the label given (including Pagans) ... there really is only ONE.

I think people get confused and think Pagans are Idolators with many Gods because we have different sub-names for the many different facets portrayed by that God-source.

But when you dig a little deeper this is true of all religions ... they are all structured around a 'Divine' family that portrays said facets, for example;


Christianity = Father / Son / Holy Spirit (trinity)

Pagan = Virgin / Mother / Crone or Green Man / Pan / Herne (double trinity) ...


The only difference comes from the fact that Pagans actually recognize the duality (masculine/feminine) of the God-source overall ... in an effort to maintain the balance of nature.


Woody

Originally posted by woodwytch
reply to post by The Riley Family

 

I know you didn't direct your reply to me but if you go back to one of my earlier posts, you will see that I tried to quell the delusion of Pagans having numerous 'God(s)' ... whatever religion you follow and whatever the label given (including Pagans) ... there really is only ONE.

I think people get confused and think Pagans are Idolators with many Gods because we have different sub-names for the many different facets portrayed by that God-source.

But when you dig a little deeper this is true of all religions ... they are all structured around a 'Divine' family that portrays said facets, for example;


Christianity = Father / Son / Holy Spirit (trinity)

Pagan = Virgin / Mother / Crone or Green Man / Pan / Herne (double trinity) ...


The only difference comes from the fact that Pagans actually recognize the duality (masculine/feminine) of the God-source overall ... in an effort to maintain the balance of nature.


Woody

Hi Woody
i am still only pretty new to learning about ancient civilisations, but i have not really noticed pagans worshipping a "divine" family?

I can understand the same god having a different name to other cultures eg RA and Apollo, both being Sun Gods, Osiris and Hades both being gods of the under world / death.
But the Pagans had god for everything, God or trade, water, wine, music, god of gods etc.
I'm not saying your wrong but i'm not seeing it, perhaps you can shed some light on it for me.

One thing which has shifted from antiquity is most still put god before goddess.

It's goddess before gods, that was the old way for many pagans in antiquity outside of the solar/Eastern religions and something modern pagans seem to have difficulty shifting back to after hundreds of years being culturally programmed with masculine superiority over women by the monotheist religions.

Polarity is important, especially to those practicing our crafts.

"We all come from the goddess and to her we shall return."

"Hoof and horn."

Praise be to Danu.

Blessed be.

Peace.





[Flowing like a river into the ocean, that's why i can move any mountain, move any mountain!]

[In this, our time, the goddess mind is more important than ever before in history, nature needs us all.
www.last.fm...

BOSS DRUM


Activate the Rhythm, the Rhythm that has always been Within you

Boss Drum, here we go again
Rhythm Eternal from a distant time
An echo of long ago
Not yet forgotten, No
Boss Drum, in Control again
Rhythm Eternal for Tomorrow's Tribe
Making that Vital Reconnection to the Goddess Mind

Boss Drum motivating Rhythm of Life
Cultural revival - this is Survival
Natural Magical Patterns of Percussion
Is the Discussion, so listen up close
Let it connect you to the Powers that Be
With healing Rhythmic Synergy
Techno Tribal and Positively Primal
Shamanic Anarchistic Archaic Revival

Activate the Rhythm, the Rhythm that has always been Within you

Boss Drum - self explanatory planatory information is the situation
With Mystical Rhythmic Beats taking over and over and over
Moving with the Sound
Altering your consciousness, nevertheless
Will gain you Access
To a Techno Tribal Positively Primal
Shamanic Anarchistic Archaic Revival

Activate the Rhythm, the Rhythm that has always been Within.]




[edit on 15-12-2009 by DeltaPan]

Originally posted by woodwytch
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

 

Hey there,

I understand the point you make perfectly.

I personally have met good and bad Christians just as I have met good and bad Pagans.

If only the bloody-mindedness (on all sides) would stop, things would be so much better.

The thing that makes me want to bang my head against the wall is the fact that Christians / Pagans / Jews and every other religion you can think of ALL believe in one God-source ... (the architect of all creation)

Whether we choose to call that God-source - Lord of the Wild Hunt / Lord Our Father / Jehovah / Allah or Bob ... it is all of one source !

Those of us who follow a religious doctrine it's usually because we have either been brought up into that belief system by our families ... or we have chosen the path that we feel most connected to.

Can you believe that so many wars have been and still continue to be fought because of the name we give to the one and only God ... source of all creation ... because it baffles the cr#p out of me !

If only people could begin to realize that our choice of religion should come from a sense of connection to God ... and understand that it is not a playground competition (our God is better than your God mentality).

Let every one remember that it was God who gave us humans the gift of 'freewill' ... hah ! bet he/she/it regrets that decision.

we must be a bitter disappointment !

I live by the Pagan Lore ... 'If it harm none, so mote it be'

Woody

Great post woodwytch

The more I look paganism up(since this thread), the more I find it shares many of my personal beliefs and sits comfortably with me.

I grew up in a catholic background but have never called myself catholic and never will, purely because there are things that just don't sit right with me so I kind of have my own belief system which i've built over the years, so thanks to the people in this thread, i've learnt quite abit

reply to post by wycky


The point you raise is a valid one but all those 'demi-God' names still file back to the one source.

Again all religions (Pagans included) like to personify/humanize ... put a face to the name if you will.

You could imagine it as one person wearing a different set of clothes for different occasions eg; you would not have the same appearance if you were going to a formal function as you would if you were just slobbing around the house ... and you would have yet another appearance if you were meeting a friend for lunch (you get the idea) ... whatever your appearance you're still the same person.

Christian Imagery of God = bewhiskered old gentleman sitting on a throne in the clouds with chubby-faced, harp-playing cherubs flying around 'him'.

Pagan Imagery of God = changes depending on the season ... Green Man (sometimes called 'Foliate Head') depicts spring/summer ... plant life returning after winter ... Pan (half man - half goat) depicts fertility and abundance in the whole of the animal kingdom (including humans) ... Herne (the hunter) depicts the necessity to feed and store food for our survival through the harsh winter months.

You are correct that Pagans give God a name for all occasions and an image to fit that occasion ... but they all boil back to the original source.

Personally I don't believe that God is a static/unchanging entity ... but that's just me !

Note, the similarity between the description of Pan and the Christian imagery of the Devil ... but that's a whole other thread

Finally, another interesting point that should not be forgotten ... there are extremists in all religions (yet again including Pagans) ... unfortunately such people do not give an accurate image of their chosen religion at all ... an extremist view of any kind will always be a distorted view of the reality.

Woody

reply to post by DeltaPan


That Pagan energy raising chant is my absolute favourite. I can smell the balefire from here.

'We all come from the Goddess,
And to her we shall return.
Hoof and horn ...
Hoof and horn'

Woody

[edit on 15-12-2009 by woodwytch]

reply to post by valiant


Thanks valiant, I'm just a traditional girl at heart ... I'm afraid some of the New-Age ideas concerning this subject have tried to turn the many branches of Paganism into little more than a trendy fashion accessory.

When you take time to look at the origins and traditions ... you find the reality of the beliefs are so much more.

Woody

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by tungus

 

Of course you're going to say that x-tians are simply speculating when they make claims about Jesus....and of course they're going to say you're speculating when you make opposing claims

You're right, no one has evidence. The x-tians don't and I don't. However they claim that the absence of evidence should be the proof. This is the whole point of faith. One believes because one wants to believe and because it feels good not because of evidence. In fact, the more lack of evidence the better.

To make things worse, none of the stories of Jesus are an eyewitness account. They were all hearsay, not evidence. Mark, Luke, and so on, they were all reporting on hearsay and they all report differently! Of course, this is what happens when you deal with a story of a story of a story.

This is why I say that Jesus is largely a made up person, like James Bond. Unlike James Bond or Matt Damon though, Jesus couldn't do anything about his condition on the cross, he couldn't help himself and certainly couldn't help anyone else. Not then and not now.

The stuff about the resurrection- we have an absent body, that's all the rest are speculations, the story of encounter comes from his girlfriend Mary. Did it occur to anyone that after the horrific murder of her beloved she might have been suffering from PTSD?

About Jesus being god, please, read what the concept of a real god was, and still is. The most powerful, he destroys cities with fire and on and on...but he is captures by some puny human soldiers and put on a cross like a common criminal?

A few death rays from heaven and several scorched Roman legions when the first whip touched Jesus' back would have convinced anyone who was who.
That's what I would have done if I was god and someone was torturing my house cat, let alone my kid. What is wrong with all these people that say, "yes, but then god did such and such." Who cares? Jesus, your only son, is screaming and is being tortured!
Forget his father, where is the CPS when you need them?

I would have much rather saved Jesus.
Then, so many things would have been different- from no annihilation of indigenous cultures to no annoying Christmas music everywhere you go.



[edit on 15-12-2009 by tungus]

Its kind of like my energy belief. As I believe nothing exists but energy. Everything is an energy thought creation. The One - the "god source" - the Creator is conscious energy. The Creator through thought energy creates sub-creators "gods". The gods create sub-gods etc. All within a stackable effect from the ONE - the "god source" - the Creator.

So the Creator would be the "king" - the gods his generals in charge of principalities. And then sub-gods etc.

Our earth/dimension would have one general "god" - - but the universe may have gods for different principalities. And then there are demi-gods.

Energy is both masculine/feminine. So it kind of depends on the need of the energy in the creation - - which can also swap back and forth.

But there is only ONE CREATOR - - the "god" source.

Wow! That's kind of difficult to put in very simplistic terms.

reply to post by Annee



You put it fine!

I know exactly what you're saying


[edit on 15-12-2009 by valiant]

[edit on 15-12-2009 by valiant]

Originally posted by valiant
reply to post by Annee

 

You put it fine!

I know exactly what your saying

Thanks

I didn't want to detail so much it took away from the Pagan discussion.

Just enough to agree with One God Source and sub/demi gods - - and masculine/feminine energy.

reply to post by tungus


But that sends a contradictory message. Does not Jesus(if he was real and his teachings are real) say "Turn the other cheek". Why then would God persecute these individuals for persecuting Jesus? It just doesn't add up....

When you think about it...well, when I think about it...it makes perfect sense....despite the lack of evidence....when I think of the evolutionary sciences....I have to ask for more evidence to build a stronger theory.....

All I really want, is not to be able to say that I know for sure....I would hate that....I just want to learn more...that's it!

Respectfully
A2D

reply to post by Annee


Exactly !

You sum it up in a nutshell

Woody

reply to post by woodwytch


Thanks for the Info Woody you are right, all ancient cultures did a lot of personifying.

finally someone makes a post about this.