The Pagan Origin Of Christmas: Jesus Was Not Born On December 25th But Some Pagan Gods were!

reply to post by Kapyong


Dear Kapyong

Yes all you say would appear to be quite correct. My information was from a history channel documentary.

I have just looked at this today en.wikipedia.org...

This says that Mithras emerged fully grown from solid rock and that the 25th of December was taken has his birthday because of the Sun God.

So thank you well corrected my only excuse is that some documentaries can be dangerous to one health.

However that fact that I would seam to have been wrong about Mithras in no way alters the fact that the early Christian Church hijacked the 25th of December as the date of birth of Jesus for there own ends.

OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have so learned to research anything I hear in TV documentaries. They tend to lean toward "feel good" family entertainment.

Also best to research multiple sources and opinions on anything. Especially anything on the net.

I have discussed this several times this month already. It seems to be a popular smashing point for those that like to be in-your-face-confrontational with x-tians.

While I do agree with you that Christmas has its roots in pagan tradition, many Christians will flat-out naively state that they celebrate Christmas because it is Christ's birthday, and that's just not true. In fact, in the only birthday celebrations we see in the bible, the outcomes are wretched. John the baptist is beheaded to celebrate Herod's birthday; one of the Pharaoh's chefs are beheaded to celebrate his; and Job's children are killed during their own birthday bash. The wise men brought gifts to Jesus(the young CHILD, not baby, mind you) because they referred to him as "King of the Jews". It was common practice then to bring gifts if you are going to be in the presence of a king.

However, we first start seeing Western Christians beginning to celebrate Christmas in a similar fashion to that of what it is today around 270A.D. The December date for the holiday probably arose from a desire to provide an alternative to the Roman "birthday of the unconquered sun" and the Persian birthday of Mithras, both of which were celebrated on or around the winter solstice.

A Christian writer explained in 320 AD: "We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of him who made it."

As far as the customs and observances go, I will agree that most are taken from pagan tradition, but again, they are still representative of Christ in certain respects. The introduction of the "Christmas tree" was probably started in 18th century Germany. This is, however, simply speculation on my part(I'm no grade-A history buff, although I try). I would then think the Germans introduced this observance to the English and furthermore, german immigrants eventually seeded the observance within the United States. The tree, in pagan traditions, is associated with the winter solstice. The evergreens that we see now, are thought to be an adaptation of the pagan traditions of tree worship. However, in modern Christianity, the evergreen trees represent the ever-lasting life that is granted through Christ.

I would think that most Christians, or atleast some that are familiar with the pagan background, don't see it as an issue at all. In fact, it's not an issue. It's an adaptation and a reason to celebrate with your loved ones and give thanks for all that you have. It's not about the birthday of Jesus. We celebrate his death and resurrection, not his birth into flesh.

If you think Christians don't care.

Try saying "Happy Solstice" to one.

reply to post by Annee


OKayyy...that's not what I meant. I meant that they don't mind that their beliefs have a pagan background, because it's not a pagan holiday for them. Christians don't celebrate it as the solstice or the day of the unconquered sun. They celebrate Christmas as a traditional time of the year in which to be loving and embrace each other and share in the warmth and goodness that is delivered with everyday that their Lord and Savior has made for them.

If they get angry or frustrated because someone says "happy solstice", I think either they are not knowledgeable about the background and history of "christmas" and/or they're simply that kind of individual. Everybody has buttons that, when pushed, trigger emotional reactions. What do you want them to do? Live a life void of emotional responses?

[edit on 14-12-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by Annee

 

OKayyy...that's not what I meant. I meant that they don't mind that their beliefs have a pagan background, because it's not a pagan holiday for them.

Then you know different Christians then I do.

Are you sure you've participated in this subject discussion before?

reply to post by Annee


Yes, I am sure...

While yes, many christians will respond differently, I already gave my opinion as to why. We're human and with our physicality and humanity come emotions. With those emotions, come actions often times not quite warranted by a particular 'catalyst'(such as saying "happy solstice").

If you know Christians that respond violently then they do not clearly understand the verse -

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." Matthew 12:34

Respectfully
A2D

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Hey there,

I understand the point you make perfectly.

I personally have met good and bad Christians just as I have met good and bad Pagans.

If only the bloody-mindedness (on all sides) would stop, things would be so much better.

The thing that makes me want to bang my head against the wall is the fact that Christians / Pagans / Jews and every other religion you can think of ALL believe in one God-source ... (the architect of all creation)

Whether we choose to call that God-source - Lord of the Wild Hunt / Lord Our Father / Jehovah / Allah or Bob ... it is all of one source !

Those of us who follow a religious doctrine it's usually because we have either been brought up into that belief system by our families ... or we have chosen the path that we feel most connected to.

Can you believe that so many wars have been and still continue to be fought because of the name we give to the one and only God ... source of all creation ... because it baffles the cr#p out of me !

If only people could begin to realize that our choice of religion should come from a sense of connection to God ... and understand that it is not a playground competition (our God is better than your God mentality).

Let every one remember that it was God who gave us humans the gift of 'freewill' ... hah ! bet he/she/it regrets that decision. we must be a bitter disappointment !

I live by the Pagan Lore ... 'If it harm none, so mote it be'

Woody

reply to post by woodwytch


I agree.

I have noticed the human brains capacity and need to organise. When it comes to organising people we do it per religion, race, monetary status, political status, other social standings, and many other peculiarities. We've turned ourselves into segregates because of this natural need to organise, classify, and label. I think when Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"...He knew full-well that this organisational tendency was going to be the cause of a lot of unnecessary pain, bickering, war-mongering, and countless acts of brutality against our brothers and sisters.

I find it astonishingly sad that because of a simple "name", there is much bickering and gnashing of teeth.

Respectfully
A2D

Originally posted by woodwytch

Those of us who follow a religious doctrine it's usually because we have either been brought up into that belief system by our families ... or we have chosen the path that we feel most connected to.

I live by the Pagan Lore ... 'If it harm none, so mote it be'

Woody

I prefer "assimilated" into a belief or culture. Parents are also often "victims" of culture and assimilation.

Many parents never attended church as an adult until they had children. They were assimilated in a mostly Christian culture - - and feel they need their children to be assimilated into this culture as well.

Yes - there are some parents who are devout themselves and actually raise their children to believe a certain way. However - in my opinion - - there is a difference between being raised in a belief - - - and being assimilated into one - - - because of society/culture.

Fortunately - my mom believed in many paths and each person must walk many paths to find the right one for them.

She was disabled - - so she encouraged us to go with neighbors to their churches. She encouraged us to be open minded to all ideas. I was not hampered by any one belief to find my own.

Obviously I understand there are open minded people in all beliefs.

But - I have not found many Christians willingly accepting the origin of Christmas as a Pagan Festival.

Born or transmigrated. Um just sayen

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
Born or transmigrated. Um just sayen

Or artificial insemination by an alien (prefer evolved being)

Or energy infused.

Or . . .

Originally posted by Annee
If you think Christians don't care.

Try saying "Happy Solstice" to one.

I would try that, indeed!

Anyway, no one knows when Jesus was born because no one had heard of him and there was nothing special from his childhood worth remembering. Yeah, yeah, he had to be hidden from Herod. Of course he did, how otherwise would you explain the lack of record on baby Jesus.

All the the childhood stories were retro-fitted (translation: made-up) to fill the void of the figure of Jesus the Giant, the creation of which was at full swing by the time of writing of the Gospels.

reply to post by tungus


I see speculation runs rampant on both sides of this fence....

Of course you're going to say that x-tians are simply speculating when they make claims about Jesus....and of course they're going to say you're speculating when you make opposing claims....If we had tangible evidence not subject to age and/or manipulation over time...there'd be no point whatsoever in this thread.....

Originally posted by tungus

Originally posted by Annee
If you think Christians don't care.

Try saying "Happy Solstice" to one.

I would try that, indeed!

Anyway, no one knows when Jesus was born because no one had heard of him and there was nothing special from his childhood worth remembering.

I know - - there is no concrete proof at all of Jesus. There is no mention of him in any writings from the time he was supposed to be doing all this stuff. All references are from others many years later.

Interestingly though - I believe in the Watchers and that higher evolved beings are sent to earth through out time to help humans evolve spiritually. So technically I believe there could be a Jesus.

Now - we all need to go out and have T-shirts made that say Happy Solstice.

Then go Christmas shopping - - and see what happens.

Gday,

Originally posted by MAC269
However that fact that I would seam to have been wrong about Mithras in no way alters the fact that the early Christian Church hijacked the 25th of December as the date of birth of Jesus for there own ends.

But no-one here has shown even ONE example of a pre-Christian celebration on Dec. 25th.

All we have seen is various vague claims about solstice celebrations. But NONE of them were actually dated to Dec. 25th.


K.

Originally posted by Kapyong
Gday,

Originally posted by MAC269
However that fact that I would seam to have been wrong about Mithras in no way alters the fact that the early Christian Church hijacked the 25th of December as the date of birth of Jesus for there own ends.

But no-one here has shown even ONE example of a pre-Christian celebration on Dec. 25th.

All we have seen is various vague claims about solstice celebrations. But NONE of them were actually dated to Dec. 25th.


K.

How about my first post on the previous page.

Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits.

In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.

The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.t

Originally posted by Kapyong

But no-one here has shown even ONE example of a pre-Christian celebration on Dec. 25th.

All we have seen is various vague claims about solstice celebrations. But NONE of them were actually dated to Dec. 25th.


K.

What exactly are we basing dates on?

Ancient times mostly used astrology and seasons.

As far as I know Winter Solstice is between December 21st and 23rd. Not on the 25th - - by modern calendar.

I think the controversy lies more with Christians monopolizing the whole Holiday Season and dismissing any other belief during this time.

This is Holiday Season - - - not exclusively Christmas Season.

One of my favorites sites is: "religious tolerance . org"

Here's what they say about Pagans and Dec 25th.

In pre-historic times, winter was a very difficult time for Aboriginal people in the northern latitudes. The growing season had ended and the tribe had to live off of stored food and whatever animals they could catch. The people would be troubled as the life-giving sun sank lower in the sky each noon. They feared that it would eventually disappear and leave them in permanent darkness and extreme cold. After the winter solstice, they would have reason to celebrate as they saw the sun rising and strengthening once more. Although many months of cold weather remained before spring, they took heart that the return of the warm season was inevitable. The concept of birth and or death/rebirth became associated with the winter solstice. The Aboriginal people had no elaborate instruments to detect the solstice. But they were able to notice a slight elevation of the sun's path within a few days after the solstice -- perhaps by DEC-25. Celebrations were often timed for about the 25th.

www.religioustolerance.org...


So - technically Dec 25th is not a specific date for Pagans - - but is within the celebration range of the solstice and following the solstice. A lot depended on the weather.

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[edit on 14-12-2009 by Annee]