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Jesus Christ not a savior, only a prophet.

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posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 07:45 PM
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This sounds like some kind of contradiction at first glance, but in fact there is no contradiction. An examination of Scripture reveals that the phrase "Son of Man" carries broad significance.

First of all, even if the phrase “Son of Man” is a reference to Jesus' humanity, it is not a denial of His deity. By becoming a man, Jesus did not cease being God. The incarnation of Christ did not involve the subtraction of deity, but the addition of humanity. Jesus clearly claimed to be God on many occasions (Matthew 16:16,17; John 8:58; 10:30). But in addition to being divine, He was also human (see Philippians 2:6-8). He had two natures (divine and human) conjoined in one person.

Further, Scripture indicates that Jesus was not denying His deity by referring to Himself as the Son of Man. In fact, it is highly revealing that the term “Son of Man” is used in Scripture in contexts of Christ's deity. For example, the Bible says that only God can forgive sins (Isaiah 43:25; Mark 2:7). But as the “Son of Man,” Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). Likewise, Christ will return to Earth as the “Son of Man” in clouds of glory to reign on Earth (Matthew 26:63-64). In this passage, Jesus is citing Daniel 7:13 where the Messiah is described as the "Ancient of Days," a phrase used to indicate His deity (cf. Daniel 7:9).

Further, when Jesus was asked by the high priest whether He was the “Son of God” (Matthew 26:63), He responded affirmatively, declaring that He was the “Son of Man” who would come in power and great glory (verse 64). This indicated that Jesus Himself used the phrase “Son of Man” to indicate His deity as the Son of God.

Finally, the phrase “Son of Man” also emphasizes who Jesus is in relation to His incarnation and His work of salvation. In the Old Testament (Leviticus 25:25-26, 48-49; Ruth 2:20), the next of kin (one related by blood) always functioned as the "kinsman-redeemer" of a family member who needed redemption from jail. Jesus became related to us “by blood” (that is, He became a man) so He could function as our Kinsman-Redeemer and rescue us from sin.




posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by Jordan River
 


There are multiple versions of the Talmud. Which were you referring to?



[edit on 10-12-2009 by EMPIRE]



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 07:57 PM
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The Babylonian Talmud is the main one Orthodox Jews use. The Jerusalem Talmud isn't used much and was used in Palestine.

A partial translation of the Babylonian Talmud sacred-texts.com...

Good luck reading through all that... it's loooooooong.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by fmcanarney
Further, when Jesus was asked by the high priest whether He was the “Son of God” (Matthew 26:63), He responded affirmatively, declaring that He was the “Son of Man” who would come in power and great glory (verse 64). This indicated that Jesus Himself used the phrase “Son of Man” to indicate His deity as the Son of God.

Finally, the phrase “Son of Man” also emphasizes who Jesus is in relation to His incarnation and His work of salvation. In the Old Testament (Leviticus 25:25-26, 48-49; Ruth 2:20), the next of kin (one related by blood) always functioned as the "kinsman-redeemer" of a family member who needed redemption from jail. Jesus became related to us “by blood” (that is, He became a man) so He could function as our Kinsman-Redeemer and rescue us from sin.


On Son of God

The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha contain a few passages in which the title "son of God" is given to the Messiah (see Enoch, cv. 2; IV Esdras vii. 28-29; xiii. 32, 37, 52; xiv. 9); but the title belongs also to any one whose piety has placed him in a filial relation to God (see Wisdom ii. 13, 16, 18; v. 5, where "the sons of God" are identical with "the saints"; comp. Ecclus. [Sirach] iv. 10). It is through such personal relations that the individual becomes conscious of God's fatherhood, and gradually in Hellenistic and rabbinical literature "sonship to God" was ascribed first to every Israelite and then to every member of the human race (Abot iii. 15, v. 20; Ber. v. 1; see Abba). The God-childship of man has been especially accentuated in modern Jewish theology, in sharp contradistinction to the Christian God-sonship of Jesus. The application of the term "son of God" to the Messiah rests chiefly on Ps. ii. 7, and the other Messianic passages quoted above.

Read more: www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

On Son of Man

In the New Testament.

In the Gospels the title occurs eighty-one times. Most of the recent writers (among them being II. Lietzmann) have come to the conclusion that Jesus, speaking Aramaic, could never have designated himself as the "son of man" in a Messianic, mystic sense, because the Aramaic term never implied this meaning. Greek translators coined the phrase, which then led, under the influence of Dan. vii. 13 and the Logos gospel, to the theological construction of the title which is basic to the Christology of the Church. To this construction reference is made in Abbahu's controversial saying in Ta'an. 65b. Indeed, examination of many of thepassages shows that in the mouth of Jesus the term was an equivalent for the personal pronoun "I."E. G. H.

Read more: www.jewishencyclopedia.com...



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:21 PM
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Oh Son of Man... The second temple judaic perspective of Yeshua in the bible , is one of a long haired hippy....... Or would be more than comfortable by saying "dude"...

Mannnn.. Have you a LOT to learn!!!

In Hebrew eyes, ANYONE callining themselves Bar Enash or the Son of man was a liar or a madman.. To say even "should I not be about MY fathers business," at the age of twelve would get you shot!!

The Jews NEVER called G-d MY Father but OUR Father// Yeshua called Him MY father..... And all prophecy up to the suffering servant in the book of isaiah have been fullfilled... In Yeshua...

[edit on 083131p://f22Thursday by Selahobed]



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by Selahobed
Oh Son of Man... The second temple judaic perspective of Yeshua in the bible , is one of a long haired hippy....... Or would be more than comfortable by saying "dude"...

Mannnn.. Have you a LOT to learn!!!

In Hebrew eyes, ANYONE callining themselves Bar Enash or the Son of man was a liar or a madman.. To say even "should I not be about MY fathers business," at the age of twelve would get you shot!!

The Jews NEVER called G-d MY Father but OUR Father// Yeshua called Him MY father..... And all prophecy up to the suffering servant in the book of isaiah have been fullfilled... In Yeshua...

[edit on 083131p://f22Thursday by Selahobed]


Common reminder jews were black back then.. lol u said shot. You mean a 12 gauge slingshot round to the head? or an arrow



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:36 PM
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Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Mark 14: 61. But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

62. And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:52 PM
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Leviticus 16

29 "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work—whether native-born or an alien living among you- 30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the LORD, you will be clean from all your sins. 31 It is a sabbath of rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. 32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments 33 and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the Tent of Meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the people of the community.

34 "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites."
And it was done, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Why would Christ have to redeem Israel when God alone can do it in the above passages in Leviticus?


[edit on 10-12-2009 by TinFoilHatMan55]



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 09:27 PM
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My belief, seeing how I have been a raised a Protestant, is that Jesus was the mortal extension of God on Earth (ie, The flesh-and-blood embodiment of his Son). I am not certain that he IS God, but rather he is a part of God (In the same way which you are a part of your Mother and Father).

Just because Jesus was not God in his entirety, I do not believe that such negates him from somehow being the Savior (ie, The one through whose guidance you can achieve a presence amongst God).



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 08:43 AM
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reply to post by TinFoilHatMan55
 


i did not read the replies..just gonna respond to OP

Firstly, you cannot say Jesus was not God but only a prophet, because he repeatedly claims that he is God..true prophets would not do this if it were untrue, they would then be false prophets..so you either have to say yes Jesus was God, or no Jesus was just a liar..which he most certainly was not

Second, in many of those verses jesus is just setting an example on how to do things..praying to the father for instance..

God does not just exist in 3 dimensions (4 if you want to count space/time)..he is hyperdimensional...this easily shows how he can interact with all beings on the planet at the same time..

so the trinity..the true form of God, his 10d form if you will, is YHWH...the holy spirit is the tether (kind of like puppet strings, and the way our soul/spirit works) that ties to the 3d human form Jesus

so you have 10d god...the holy spirit,conduit....3d jesus

also..the hebrew word for elohim is a plural word...

i have to go take a final so i cant elaborate right now..but its very easy..



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 09:05 AM
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reply to post by TinFoilHatMan55
 



Why would Christ have to redeem Israel when God alone can do it in the above passages in Leviticus?

Read the books of Hebrews and Romans. The Law was a temporary thing and it brought judgment because it causes man to realize his sinfulness. With the Law, men are slaves to the Law. God provided a means of atonement through the blood of animals; but the blood of animals doesn't remove sin, it just covers it over. Christ's perfect sacrifice though removes sin and sets us free from the curse of the Law.

Beyond that, the Messiah was prophezied to bare the transgressions of the Israel and the nations, so, if Christ's death wasn't redemptive, he can't be the Messiah.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by TinFoilHatMan55
 


I'm pretty sure you're right, in some ways.

My own interpretation is that when Jesus talked of being the son of God he was talking about all mankind. After all he taught them to pray OUR father, not Jesus's Father. When Jesus talks about being the savior he is saying that all son's of God are saviors. Jesus came at a time when people were living under the oppression of Rome and were waiting for a Savior, I think he came along and told them to stop waiting around for a savior and save themselves through love.

No longer was a middle-man or endless rituals needed to be saved. Jesus understood that religion was being used to control them, that the system itself was corrupt and he wanted to show them that through loving each other and God and practicing responsibility for one's own sins (the log in your own eye) you could essentially become your own savior. No mystical messiah was needed, just follow what Christ taught and you would become the way, the truth and the life (it says "I" am the way, as in the divine self).

I think it was only after his death that the Resurrection and truly bizarre idea that one has to partake of the blood and wash away sins through his human sacrifice came into the story. And also the idea that he was the singular son of God and singular Savior. Jesus came so that we could all save ourselves, essentially he came to empower us to be better and wiser people.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by TinFoilHatMan55
 


If Christ and God are the same how can Christ not know the hour of the end of the world but only the Father? Doesn't that contradict the Trinity theology?

Christ chose to empty himself of some divine attributes when he came to Earth. No, this doesn't contridict Trinitarian theology.


Again we have another verse denying the Trinity.

Not really. Trinitarian theology affirms that there is one God, who has revealed himself in three ways: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Why would he ask for it to pass from him if the Father will?

Because Christ had a human nature, too.


Shouldn't he know this is he is already God?

He did know what was going to happen. The Gospels are littered with Christ saying that he was going to die and raise again.


And why pray to himself if he is God?

In some way, he would be praying to himself, since there is only one God and Christ is God. But, in the "chain of command" the Son is lower than the Father, so that is why he would pray to the Father.


Yet again another verse denying the Trinity.

Not really. Trinitarian theology affirms that there is one God.


Why if Jesus is God why would he pray to himself and why call the Father greater than him.

He'd refer to the Father as greater than him because in the structure of the Trinity, the Son is lower than the Father.


The Trinity is a false doctrine promoted by the church.

I don't know about that considering that the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all referred to as God.


God can only be one infinite being. Not three separate persons yet one. That doesn't make much sense.

It doesn't have to make sense in our human minds. Isaiah 55.8:

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.

The Trinity is one infinite being. All three members have always been. God being revealed in three distinct ways doesn't negate his eternalness.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 12:08 PM
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To the OP

You claim Jesus isn't a Savior but only a Prophet. Well done you for having inside knowledge.

The rest of the Worlds population needn't give it anymore thought...maybe just this one.

Pick up any three sided object...one object, three faces. I'm a REALLY simple man and I can see it.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 12:47 PM
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reply to post by TinFoilHatMan55
 


since no one has answered the first statement I guess I will.


"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,' (John 14:28)


The term greater refers to position not nature. The term better would refer to nature.
heres an example. you are greater than your wife in nature because female was made from male.However you are not better than she, you are equally human.(I hope).

This should pretty much answer most of your questions concerning Jesus and the Father.


[edit on 11-12-2009 by oliveoil]



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 01:56 PM
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reply to post by TinFoilHatMan55
 


I think it is better to call Him a Messenger. That is what He was. Now what was the message and have we heard it before? Was it credible? Could He back it up with proof? What did he stand to gain from delivering the message? Was he the only messenger of this truth? How many times will it be repeated? Will we get it? and most curious to me...Who sent it?



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 





John recorded Jesus as saying to the Jews, "...if you believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24


It's interesting to note that the same books claim john to be uneducated an ignorant fisherman, so it's highly unlikely that the illiterate dude wrote anything, if in fact he ever existed.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 





The term better would refer to nature. heres an example. you are greater than your wife in nature because female was made from male.However you are not better than she, you are equally human.(I hope).

What the hell kind of misogynistic religious gobbledygook was that Oliveoil ?



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by oliveoil
 





The term better would refer to nature. heres an example. you are greater than your wife in nature because female was made from male.However you are not better than she, you are equally human.(I hope).

What the hell kind of misogynistic religious gobbledygook was that Oliveoil ?

LOL
Ya know the whole rib thing Eve was made from Adams rib,ahh forget it, you wouldn't understand its a Christian thing, Ok bad example.

Heres another. Is the president greater than you and I ? Yes, his position of president is greater than our p-on status However, is he better than us? No he is not, we all put our shoes on one foot at a time.

A little clearer?

[edit on 11-12-2009 by oliveoil]



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 03:46 PM
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Jesus was just like buddha. There was nothing extraordinary about him. Then he reached enlightenment and he becomed Christ. Religions are big misunderstanding. Buddha, Christ, Yogananda... They all tried to teach you how to reach enlightenment. We are in ''hell'' now, ''heaven'' is enlightenment. Many many people have reached enlightenment, even i know couple of ones. Its not a secret. If you want you can reach it too, but dont waste your time praying, no one cant save, but your self.
Sorry my bad english.



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