The Zuni Indians - Only one murder in 300 years.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by B.Morrison
To re-iterate, discussion regarding the Zuni tribe is welcome and encouraged, but I also seek discussion regarding matrist/patrist theory, and the 'variables' theory.

-B.M

Hitler condemned those who were circumcised . . .

Japan and Russia have low circumcision rates, as does China.

Blows that theory up a bit there.

not really man, if you'd bothered to check the links i posted or source the dvd to watch, you'd find there are 36 variables. not just genital mutilation.

-B.M

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by BigfootNZ

 

I will reply with a quote-

A famous example relevant to this disease is Eva Peron, who died of cervical cancer at age 33 [514]. She started out as a street waif who began having multiple sexual partners at an early age, working her way up the military command in Argentina, where virtually all men are uncircumcised.

maybe all the military command she had sex with also wore pink cardigans and listened to david bowie alot as well, doesn't prove anything...and if the medical results are real proof....why even include this inconclusive story as a 'e.g' anyway???? sounds like their trying to sell B.S.

Cervical cancer is common in prostitutes, but rare in nuns

go figure...

In a case-control study of 1107 Indian women with cervical cancer, sex with uncircumcised men or those circumcised after the age of 1 year was reported in 1993 to be associated with a 4-fold higher risk of cervical cancer [6].

how was this reported, how was it tested? how can you determine that these women who already had the cancer, got it from having sex with an uncircumcised man? like Robert said...no scientific basis that actually makes sense...

This figure was, moreover, obtained after controlling for factors such as age, age of first intercourse, and education.

done how? by enslaving Indian girls for these experiments? I wonder...

Another study published in 1993 concerning various types of cancer in the Valley of Kashmir concluded that universal male circumcision in the majority community was responsible for the low rate of cervical cancer compared with the rest of India [144].

how, details, who did these tests.

In Israel, a 1994 report of 4 groups of women aged 17-60 found that Moshav residents with no gynaecological complaints had no HPV 16/18 and healthy Kibbutz residents had a 1.8% incidence [262]. Amongst those who had a gynaecological complaint HPV 16/18 was found in 9% of Jewish and 12% of non-Jewish women. Thus the causative agent (high-risk HPV) can be found in Jewish women, where the lifestyle and contact with non-Jewish men (some of whom may be uncircumcised) would likely have been higher in the Kibbutz dwellers.

funny how all these tests seem to have been done in countries that support the act. seems biased to me.

The source of this (circumcised vs. uncircumcised partners) was not explored.

so they are assumptions?

A study in Denmark that found 5-fold lower HPV in circumcised men concluded that ‘the female partners of circumcised men are less exposed to cervical cancer because these men are less likely to be infected with HPV’

right so now we're getting to the crux of this nonsense, the uncircumcised man must also not clean properly, and be sexually promiscuous.

promiscuity was one of the 36 variables. And an uncircumcised man who kept himself clean and only had one sexual partner would not cause cervical cancer based on this same data.

In a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1987 it was found that women with cervical cancer were more likely to have partners with PIN

you're kidding right? bahahahaha so this whole arguement depends on that the infected male needs to have the precursor to penile cancer in order to risk the female being infected?....right and the guys not gonna notice his infected penis?.....

my point is proven here

A study in 1994 found that in women with CIN, PIN was present in the male partner in 93% of cases [46]. This is consistent with the known sexual transmission of this cancer-causing virus.

promiscuous men who don't clean themselves and are too stupid to notice a difference in the appearence of their penis (once infected with PIN) will probably pass their disease to the next women they sleep with. that info is nothing new, most of us learnt about sexually transmitted diseases in high school....It's important to note that the people who sleep around a lot account for about %10 of the world population and the majority of people have an average of 3-5 different sexual partners throughout there lifetimes, I got that info from a 'study' but don't have any details, then again, neither do you.

UNAIDS data from 117 developing countries show a cervical cancer incidence of 35 per 100,000 women per year in 51 countries with a low (80%) circumcision prevalence (P

Originally posted by BigfootNZ
Interesting ideas OP, although personally I dont think its really much of an issue. While im 'o natural' , as a permmy baby I was isolated in a incubator and daily given blood tests, which basically involved them using a razor to nick my heels, which supposedly really made me squeal. While not the same as circumcision its just another very early traumatic experience in the same vein for a baby. Temperament wise im shy but not unfriendly, not to fond of unsolicited contact and fairly pacifistic.

My older brothers on the other hand all where circumcised (something after witnessing made my mum decide not to for me and my younger brother). They also are mostly nonaggressive and caring people.

Could this be due to our up bringings, most likely... our family is/was also fairly religous.

yes it could, but a father god is the root of other negative aspects of society, that being, male superiority. Very interesting input tho and thankyou

So to me, I dont think being in a culture with Matrist/Patrist elements creates alot of the troubles we face, such things may weigh issues in certain directons, but overall I think its a minor influence, with far more larger issues being the real culprits for our societies ills.

matrist/patrist is defined by 36 variables, not just genital mutilation, matrist/patrist IS every aspect of society in data form, the results came from running the data through a computer. Biased human opinion does NOT come into these theories. Its pure data.

Hmm had a thought... did the romans practice it?, since in terms of equality they where very male dominated and aggressive.

That's a good question

-B.M

Originally posted by nixie_nox
When I was having a son and debating circumcision, I talked to a lot of people. And while most didn't have problems, I did hear several horror stories of infecations as adults, and having had to have adult male circumcision. And that is was truley not a pleasant experience.

This post makes no sense whatsoever.

who exactly got circumcised and when?

and were the shock stories related to circumcision gone wrong, or lack of circumcision as a youngster led to infection then led to adult circumcision?

I wonder if the slight & subject-able benefits of circumcision would outweigh say the psychological harm it might cause to a child who was already very sensitive, like say perhaps an autistic child, I can't imagine the trauma that would cause such a child.

And really, with all the medical advancements we've made over the last 100 years, why are std's even still an issue? think about the technology we REALLY have available, the stuff that doesn't get reported on in mainstream media, like the electro magnetic trains, or tidal/wave energy systems, or the freakin space elevators....but we can't stop this kind of infection?

begs the question as to whether these problems being remedied is actually the agenda of the medical associations whose job it is to tackle such things.

It boggles the mind to think that the best solution we could come up with as a race over the last 1000 years, is genital mutilation.

I will point out now what i neglected to do in OP,

the extremes of female circumcision means to remove the clitoris, outer labia, inner labia and then sew the whole thing up....

to ALL posters on this thread -

If you think there is scientific justification for that and
if that doesn't turn your stomach or hurt your soul,
then I don't want anything to do with you.

Reminded me of the endless propaganda regarding nicotine patches.

the reality is, a carefully planned psychological program to rewire your brain against your addiction has a 90% success rate (and money back guarantee).

Nicotine patches have a 10% success rate.

Yet your GP will still recommend the patches.........

and noteworthy is that their income partly depends on the sale of patches, they can't make money from that psychological program.

-B.Morrison

[edit on 11/12/09 by B.Morrison]

[edit on 11/12/09 by B.Morrison]

Originally posted by B.Morrison

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by B.Morrison
To re-iterate, discussion regarding the Zuni tribe is welcome and encouraged, but I also seek discussion regarding matrist/patrist theory, and the 'variables' theory.

-B.M

Hitler condemned those who were circumcised . . .

Japan and Russia have low circumcision rates, as does China.

Blows that theory up a bit there.

not really man, if you'd bothered to check the links i posted or source the dvd to watch, you'd find there are 36 variables. not just genital mutilation.

-B.M

Anyone can come up with 36 variables and make claims on them.

I stick to my guns. I am calling BS on this one.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by B.Morrison

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by B.Morrison
To re-iterate, discussion regarding the Zuni tribe is welcome and encouraged, but I also seek discussion regarding matrist/patrist theory, and the 'variables' theory.

-B.M

Hitler condemned those who were circumcised . . .

Japan and Russia have low circumcision rates, as does China.

Blows that theory up a bit there.

not really man, if you'd bothered to check the links i posted or source the dvd to watch, you'd find there are 36 variables. not just genital mutilation.

-B.M

Anyone can come up with 36 variables and make claims on them.

I stick to my guns. I am calling BS on this one.

The 36 variables were run through a computer, human influence didn't come into the results. Yes, anyone could come up with 36 variables, but that doesn't prove that these researchers work is unfounded. It just means that anyone is capable of anything, which really, means nothing.

-B.M

P.S) obviously you're entitled to your opinion and I respect you for not backing down, for requiring more proof to convince you,

lets just agree to disagree

[edit on 11/12/09 by B.Morrison]

genital mutilation huh? Where are his facts..? I think this guy is Really Reaching here.

Can he tell what the exact link is between genital mutilation and murder or violent behavior? No..

CRACKPOT !!!

LOL He came up with a theory that is impossible to prove and that's how this con man gets people to believe it! LOL !!!

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
genital mutilation huh? Where are his facts..? I think this guy is Really Reaching here.

......this is getting exhausting.

Can he tell what the exact link is between genital mutilation and murder or violent behavior? No..

CRACKPOT !!!

wow what an open minded way of thinking....so suitable for the nature of this forum...

LOL He came up with a theory that is impossible to prove and that's how this con man gets people to believe it! LOL !!!

He would have to be selling something to be a con man, he is not.

he's a philosopher, by the very nature of philosophers, they discuss possibilities, not absolutes. He never claimed to have come up with the theory, he was discussing the theories of the people listed below. Your comments expose your ignorance, i.e. that you didn't read the transcript properly (if at all) and are simply jumping on the bandwagon seeking praise.

I dislike that immensely. There's no room for that kind of behaviour when 'denying ignorance'.

I will repost the FACTS that you missed.

the statistics & data robert used came from-
Demayo - Saharaja (book - could not find, prob banned)

Robert Anton Wilson - Ishtar Rising

Gordon Rattray Taylor - Sex in history

and the relevant works of Konrad Lorenz.

find those sentences on the other post on page one & you will find they link directly to the books Robert got his info from.

Go there,
review the data,
then come back and voice AN EDUCATED opinion on the topic.

Or go join in the 'death penalty' thread which seems to welcome ignorance and encourage it.

-B.M

[edit on 11/12/09 by B.Morrison]

Originally posted by B.Morrison
P.S) obviously you're entitled to your opinion and I respect you for not backing down, for requiring more proof to convince you,
lets just agree to disagree

Change of plans.
Upon discovering that these same pro-circumcision doctors blame breast cancer on uncircumcised penis's (WTF?), I decided to research this stupid nonsense.

Here's all the proof you need.

Some research suggests that women with partners who have been circumcised are less likely to get cervical cancer. This may be because men who are circumcised are less likely to carry HPV infection. This research took into account different factors relating to sexual behaviour.

suggestions are not conclusive evidence. simple as that. many different factors taken into account, like promiscuity and cleanliness no doubt.

Source

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


CONCLUSIVE PROOF THAT CIRCUMCISION HAS LITTLE TO NOTHING TO DO WITH PENILE/CERVICAL CANCER ^^^^
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(lol @ the following...)

There is a website that is admittedly biased in favor of circumcision but that has collected an impressive amount of information in one place, with 660 references. I learned way too much from that website. For instance that the circumcised penis averages 0.8 cm shorter than the uncircumcised penis (possibly due to improper technique occasionally removing too much tissue and “tethering” the organ slightly). And that an intact foreskin is an absolute requirement for a mutual masturbation practice amongst homosexual men known as “docking,” in which the penis is placed under the foreskin of the male partner. I didn’t need to know that. You probably didn’t want to know that either, but now it’s too late.

Source
the above website has ALL the info for BOTH sides of the argument & is from a scientific perspective AND incredibly even handed. I refer anyone interested in the pro's and con's of circumcision to that website.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

or for more passionate & biased...

NY Times Claims circumcision "curbs STDS" I call it Bull#

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The side 'against'

The great HIV and Circumcision scam © Peter Zohrab 2009

There are plenty of excuses but no valid medical reasons for circumcision

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

circumcision kills

“The death toll in the Eastern Cape’s winter circumcision season has risen to 31”

toll hits 14...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Finally, for cultural reasons, a number of African tribes would circumcise their female children. A quick google search will educate you on this.

This killed many poor innocent African girls for no reasons other than tribal superstition.

Many tribes have now discontinued this practice due to all-female rebellions (later joined by sympathetic and intelligent male youths of the tribe) within the tribe - against the male tribal elders who thought an uncircumcised woman was 'dirty' and unfit to bear children or be a good wife.

-B.Morrison.

[edit on 12/12/09 by B.Morrison]

reply to post by DaddyBare

I agree DB. I'm from Gallup and I am a Corrections Officer. I have seen many Zuni murder suspects pass through and I have seen convictions. I also have many Zuni friends.

OP- If you want to research Zuni murders you can look at the Gallup Independent newspaper. This would be a far more accurate source of information. www.gallupindependent.com...

Originally posted by ShAuNmAn-X
reply to post by DaddyBare

 

I agree DB. I'm from Gallup and I am a Corrections Officer. I have seen many Zuni murder suspects pass through and I have seen convictions. I also have many Zuni friends.

OP- If you want to research Zuni murders you can look at the Gallup Independent newspaper. This would be a far more accurate source of information. www.gallupindependent.com...

Thanks for the links & information about your personal experiences with the people, However I wonder when this data used by Robert was obtained and whether the murder rates were different at that time or whether as discussed before the data might refer to murders within their own tribe in the time frame, for e.g. after doing some google searches and searching for Zuni at the newspaper website you linked to, I find 3-4 murder cases, one only alleged, which all happened since 2004. Seeing as the talk Robert gave was in (I think) 2001 and one of the books he was referencing was written in 1954, The data mentioned is accurate in its own context. What I seem to be discovering from the input of people like yourself is that the data doesn't accurately reflect the current Zuni dynamic today?

-B.M

[edit on 15/12/09 by B.Morrison]