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Your Date With Destiny: Meeting the Real Jesus

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posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 07:39 PM
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Thinking more on what you said mom.....

If Jesus had to die, werent the ones that killed him then doing Gods works?

Not speaking FOR OliveOil here...but I am sure she knows this is your thread....not sure why you felt the need to stress that to her? She never made assumptions that this was my thread...

All in love,
Me

[edit on 13-12-2009 by LeoVirgo]




posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
Proverbs 25:9 Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another:


no, not OT but NT:


Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
(Romans 1:29)


in context



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Apologies,

It was either you have no understanding or I have no understanding.

Directly, or indirectly you insulted me first.


If we both had the same understandings of what it says, there would be no need of this entire conversation


I'm not just making erroneous statements up off the top of my head.This is what I do for a living.So at least give me that.


Without the little red face blowing fire...THE BIBLE IS ALSO THE MOST MISLEADING BOOK IN THIS WORLD....telling others that GOD must be feared, to NOT use ones own reasoning's, that we are all saved through a blood shed of life, that God even backed killings as a solution to a problem.
See, right here you are making blatant statements without any understanding into what the text is saying.
Lets start with this one


God even backed killings as a solution to a problem

Please give me one example in the Bible where you find this. Then explain to me How So.


[edit on 13-12-2009 by oliveoil]


Are you saying that your Bible says to not fear the wrath of God, the one who is jealous? Are you saying you are unaware of the fact that man must kill something for salvation to come? Are you saying you are unaware of the fact that God told men to kill off nations that were wrong in Gods eyes....so the ones that were right in Gods eyes could have Israel?

You need examples of God using killing as a solution to problems?? Seriously, what book are you reading?

I am not going to give examples, the Bible revolves around killing to solve problems. Jesus being the icing on the cake for the killing....at least it did end the blood shedding thank goodness.

Even if I gave examples, you would only come back with a reason that God did such things. Another merry go round we would be hopping on with that.

BTW to add to this...

this below what you quoted me saying




If we both had the same understandings of what it says, there would be no need of this entire conversation


was not an insult at all. Sorry you took it that way. I was saying, for there to be a debate, there has to be disagreement. If we agreed....what need for debate would there be? You said we needed to agree on what the Bible said...to have a biblical debate...so I commented back to you, if we agreed, we wouldnt even be here in this discussion.





[edit on 13-12-2009 by LeoVirgo]



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
So what your saying now is that the same meaning used in Matthew 18 is not the same meaning used in all the other verses that contain the word Church? please do explain?


It comes down to authority. No man is supposed to put themselves into authority over others. Be it in the church or otherwise.

Where Paul(and the "Church" as a result) goes wrong is that it creates authority figures in the name of god here on earth. That is a big time no-no.

Paul:



1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Timothy 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.


Jesus:



Matthew 23

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.


As such, there are no "men" who authority in the real "church". The "Church" Paul speaks of is a church/system of "religious authority", or "God's authority". The catholic church is the most hardcore example, and plenty of others would also do it if they could get away with it to the same degree they did.

As the authorities of the church is completely backwards, then what does that say about the church itself? 2 different churches.

The church Jesus speaks of is built within. The "rock" it is founded on is wisdom(check out Matthew 7). Jesus at one time says if 2 or more people are discussing him, then he will be among them. So, if a group of people meet and have discussion about Jesus/God then that would be them going to "church". As we have discussion on these forums, when we do so - we are going to "church". Because as a result of the discussion, and the exchange of ideas/expression understanding/wisdom can be built. And when you speak of your understanding, which is based on that rock, then you are helping others build their churches.

In that setting, all are equal, all are "brothers". No one on this earth is qualified to call themselves teachers, we are all students. There is but 1 true teacher, and anyone who claims any such authority does so on a false authority - even the scribes(Matthew 7 again).

What you get with Paul and the "Church" you know is a system and "preaching". Where a "teacher" gets up and dictates dogma that the people are to accept. You get into titles, positions of authority and power. As understanding and wisdom are not recieved, then the people are able to be lead down the broad path of death and destruction. Of which the history of the Roman Catholic Church should serve lesson too.

In 1 church, you build understanding and wisdom which puts god into authority(psalm 111:10). In the other church, you build worldly authority and powers with men in authority.

What do you think Jesus meant when he said "The Pharisees sit in the seat of moses"? What do you think he meant when he said the people were the authority, not the scribes?

He was talking about exactly what I have been telling you. And the system of Paul and the "Church" is the exact same system Jesus was murdered by, only with new labels and such.

You listen, but you can not hear.

Now, I know atleast 1 member here who has told me that his "Church" is like the first example I gave. Where they have discussion rather than preaching, and so forth. I think that is great. I think it's great that people can come to a forum and speak openly, it's the same thing.



Her opinion is based on "what ifs" and "if nots" without having any regards to what the Bible is saying.At least you bring something concrete to the table.


You have never heard her true opinion, it is impossible. She is simply trying to express things to you. Communication is a 2 way street.

Think about it. I have an image in my head. I have to take that image, and turn it into words to describe the image. Those words travel from the person, over to you. You then have to try and take those words, and rebuild the image so that you can try and see it.

Do you see how much is lost in that process?

What she is doing is trying to give you pieces to the puzzle so that you can see what she is trying to express. If someone says "What if", then what is means is "Imagine this". It's a key to trying to recreate the image through the expression.

The bible is the same thing. That is why it is not the "word of god". The true word of god is the word that those people who wrote it heard. They then tried to communicate that to others, and that expression is what is captured in the bible.

Basically, you are treating her and others the same way an atheist would treat you. Not even giving what you say the time of day, coming back with short little comebacks like "God is a sky fairy" or "Flying spaghetti Monster", when you won't even try to see what she is expressing, and then ridiculing her because you can't decipher what is being said.




No. however, I believe you are lead to the Scriptures and are aided in understanding of them.


No, you will understand the scriptures before you ever read them. You won't need to read them at all to understand what they say. I'll use the math example. Do you learn math when you first learn "1+1=2"? No, the understanding itself was already there. Even a 2 year old understands that 2 pieces of candy is more than 1 piece. They already have the understanding itself. What they learn in the written expresion "1+1=2" is how to express it and how to work with that expression.

As such, the understanding itself comes from the holy spirit, and anyone who experiences that will have the understanding, same as that 2 year old. But when you want to start expressing it, then the bible and other expressions help refine how it is expressed so that others can more easily understand what the person is trying to say. Think of it as like a language. If I am speaking spanish, and you are speaking English, and neither of us can understand each other, then there is no real communication there. But if we both speak the same language and say "Tree", then we can have communication.



I understand completely WHAT was said and done and the thing you will experience.
However, It is you who does not understand WHY these things were said and Done.How can one gain a better understanding if one refuses to understand why?


If you understood completely, you would have already been offered a chance to leave.



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
Thank you for posting the whole thing in context.

heres some more, maybe you can put these in context too.

Isaiah 27:8 In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind.

Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

By the way, hows it going on that Church thing? any day now


I guess you've never heard the rule about debates and the person who only throws insults.

I missed the church post, it was on another page. I've answered it for you, but soon I will forsake you.



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


I think I'll end this back and forth with you on this note.
Use your book but at least tryto see past the words.
I'm regarded as a non-believer by most, a heretic by some and downright offensive by others.
Here's the rub though, I can follow the "message" in my daily life without believing in the source.

Be nice to one another. Simple straightforward and and clear. No different to any other "truth".
You appear to be lost in the details.

Be well.



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 09:46 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Yes, I believe that Christ knew from the beginning of mankind, that he knew he would be leaving his beautiful home in Heaven to come to earth to save man from ourselves and from satan and defeat death. Yes, it was all planned ahead of time long ago.

oliveoil made a comment according to the OP who doesn;t believe that Jesus had to die. That is why I responded to that question.

Peace My Daughter,
Mom



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Yes, I believe that Christ knew from the beginning of mankind, that he knew he would be leaving his beautiful home in Heaven to come to earth to save man from ourselves and from satan and defeat death. Yes, it was all planned ahead of time long ago.

oliveoil made a comment according to the OP who doesn;t believe that Jesus had to die. That is why I responded to that question.

Peace My Daughter,
Mom


I love you so....and I love the fact that you have loved me so and we can have such a close and deep spiritual sharing and still show others tolerance and acceptance. I thank you so much for sharing with me and allowing me to share back with you.

Some might not know here how much we talk in day to life, well mom and I are next door neighbors...we talk every day and have had the most deepest talks about our love for the world, God, and life. As much as we might seem to disagree....our relation is special I believe, for not many are so sure of themselves, as well as so welcoming of others.

You already know I how feel, many roads to one place.

Tell me...what is Jesus's death saving me from? This answer should be obvious...by quoting scriptures, but what is your feeling.

Is there something wrong with us, in your belief, by God?

Was there a mistake in how this world was made, how the material world is full of temptations and opportunities, to make choices? Do we not need these dualities to learn from?

If the Adam and Eve story's are true...we have this world of polarity because of them not obeying, therefor, we shouldnt be here having to experience the world we are in, of experiences, learning, a world of two different paths. Do you think it was wrong, that we all shouldnt be here experiencing what we have?

So then this would deem us unworthy, right? Kinda like a punishment even, that we are sorrow, starvation, hatred, lust, pride, greed...all these things that wouldnt be here...if Adam and Eve just would of listened. Dang that darn free will, gets ya in trouble every time


I dont think God makes mistakes, I think we are where we are because it provided us with what we need, its all here and has been here.

Did you learn from your wrongs? If so Im sure that your honest thoughts and humbled heart is known by God. I feel this is all you need, because Thee is that great. I dont think your unworthy, there for you dont need saved,.....mabey shown, like a few hints along the way, but not saved.

Jesus though, shows us a 'way' to walk a path, that leads us onward, allows us to progress. Even if some progress...you and I know, most choose to come back for the other selves, the other children of God. Being a part of the ONE, the purpose of the ONE, the will for all lights to return, just as the seed does to the Earth.

If this isnt a mistake, and we werent ever unworthy but as perfect as could be expected for now, being providing with catalysts, experiences, feelings, lust, desires, ...how would we progress and become 'more' or 'perfect'. Do you think we should of remained 'perfect' like in a Eden and this is all wrong with humans and this world of sins?

If its not wrong...and we are worthy and this world of duality is meant to be...then what are you needed saved from? Why couldnt you just be saved to progress to Heaven with just a honest heart and mind, knowing your conscious is clear that God knows in your heart if you mean what you pray or say or think.

But still...different paths to the same place.

Love you much!


[edit on 14-12-2009 by LeoVirgo]

[edit on 14-12-2009 by LeoVirgo]



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 12:58 AM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I love you so....and I love the fact that you have loved we can have such a close and deep spiritual sharing and still show others tolerance and acceptance. I thank you so much for sharing with me and allowing me to share back with you.



Interesting. I've had my disagreements with Grandma - - but find her to be a very special person of much love.

My god beliefs are very different - - but both of us feel Love is God.



[edit on 14-12-2009 by Annee]



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 01:13 AM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Mom and I both feel Love is God also. I think we both look at the entire world as our extended family in some way. Mabey that is why we both come here to express and share so much with others, out of love.

Love is the highest power, God is Love.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 07:17 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 



Are you saying that your Bible says to not fear the wrath of God,

No, My Bible says to fear God, For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1:18

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Are you saying you are unaware of the fact that man must kill something for salvation to come?

If you are referring to Jesus, I think he made this clear himself.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

And as if we did not know Peter confirms,

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;


Are you saying you are unaware of the fact that God told men to kill off nations that were wrong in Gods eyes
I assume these men which you are speaking of were Israel? These men were Gods chosen people.They were not Killing off nations, They were eradicating cancer.
These nations were truly inhuman.They were rapists,murderers,they preformed child sacrifice,They had sex with animals,they worshiped other gods they were truly barbaric,pure evil.

I would gladly go more into detail but you provided me with no examples, besides you get the point.



Even if I gave examples, you would only come back with a reason that God did such things


Shouldn't we at least consider the FACT that god did have reasons. You seem to write it off as God is the bad guy.



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


So are you saying God can't do that on his own? What about Sodom etc? Which is it? Is it that men need to do it, or is it that god will do it?

Why do you not consider that anyone could have written things and said they were of god? God will stop them? Well, should I repeat the first paragraph again?



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by oliveoil
 


So are you saying God can't do that on his own? What about Sodom etc? Which is it? Is it that men need to do it, or is it that god will do it?

Why do you not consider that anyone could have written things and said they were of god? God will stop them? Well, should I repeat the first paragraph again?




How many people would have to be good for God to spare a city?
You need to go back and read. Your answer is there.

And if your wondering why I haven't replied back to your post , I can't until Wednesday morning. Thanks. OO



posted on Dec, 14 2009 @ 10:59 AM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


You completely avoided the entire point of the post. It comes down to 1 simple thing.

Does god need humans to kill others for him? This was a big point of Jesus, that men were doing things and saying it was god's will etc. So why do you ignore it?

Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Jesus called those people who did such things hypocrites. He shows through his example that it is better to die without sin, than to take up evil and kill. That is what he would call working iniquity.

You mention how evil these other nations were, but did you actually read what they themselves were told to do? It's pretty close to the same exact thing. Also, what about the nation Jesus lived under, was that a good nation? Heck, the Jews themselves are what lead to the murder of Jesus. But do we see Jesus taking up physical arms? No. There is a reason for it.

When he does what he does at the end, he shows the world that it is better to die in the flesh sin free, than to take up evil and fight back. He proves it. He refuses to become the political king the Jews want, he does this for a reason. He does all these things for a reason, and it's not just to be save people in blood.

He tells them exactly what you quoted above, do not fear those who can only kill the body, and he fulfills that in his death.

He speaks of the way that seems right, but isn't. He speaks of not trying to save yourself, that it is in error. If he had fought back, then he would have been trying to save himself. If he had tried to save himself in that manner, he in the process would have lost himself, because he would have been committing sins.

Because Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Jesus says no, to kill the man who killed is too be a hypocrite. And what did you defend before? Hypocrisy.

So, it obviously brings the events of the past into question. If those events and what people were doing were right, then why did Jesus need to come? He brings understanding, and in the process he shows what is the true way of god, and what is not.

The bible itself even talks about those things, Hosea for example could see the errors before Jesus came along. Jesus quotes Hosea in the same effect.

Jesus does not change the laws, he does not end the laws. That is another contradiction of Paul. He fulfills the law, and in doing so shows men what is god's law and what is not. And those things obviously were NOT of god.

If you meet Jesus, then how will you know that Jesus is Jesus?






[edit on 12/14/2009 by badmedia]



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 

I had a few minute today for a reply.


Where Paul(and the "Church" as a result) goes wrong is that it creates authority figures in the name of god here on earth. That is a big time no-no
.

I was under the impression that Jesus gave his disciples and servants power and authority in the name of God here on earth.

Mark 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Isn't it funny how Peter became Bishop of Antioch. Wow what an authoritative position to have.I guess Jesus knew what he was talking about was he addressed Simon by his nickname and said "On this rock I will build my church, which will overcome all the evil forces arrayed against it."

Your interpretation makes sense however, this is not what was implied.There are not two different meanings for the word church.only one.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


I wasn't avoiding the question, I only thought you could figure it out for yourself.


Does god need humans to kill others for him?

This is a loaded question.Your insinuating that God kills indiscriminately.He does not.

The methods in which God intervenes with people vary for whatever reasons he sees fit. And he uses whatever means necessary to execute his judgment.

If you read and understand the covenant he made to Abraham correctly, you would have known that the land in which these people were killed was the land that God had promised his descendants.

The people of Palestine had over four hundred years to repent of their wickedness.why do you think God had his people mull around the desert for so long? It wasn't that God knew not where they were going.It was because the iniquity of the people who they were to kill,was not yet full.This means that God would not destroy,or have the people of the land destroyed until their sins were such that their guilt merited their complete destruction in judgment.

The army of Israel was acting according to the direct command of God. This army was the instrument of judgment used by God.



You mention how evil these other nations were, but did you actually read what they themselves were told to do?


They did what they deemed necessary by completely exterminating any trace of the city and its people.If anything or anyone remained there would always have been the threat of heathen influence to pull the people away from pure worship of the lord.


Not to veer off topic or anything.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 03:53 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


Why do you continually try and have this discussion with Oliveoil? It is clear that he is stuck in his own ego and cannot get out. He actually believes that Jesus had to physically exist in order for his life to make sense. He talks as if this "god" he speaks of, is the ulimate super ego. Oliveoil is completely lost inside this "christian" bible he so dearly admires.

Why are you wasting your time?? This guy will never understand what you are talking about. Let it be buddy.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
I was under the impression that Jesus gave his disciples and servants power and authority in the name of God here on earth.

Mark 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.


You are under alot of wrong impressions. The authority Jesus gives those people is the authority over themselves. He does that with understanding, as a man with understanding has wisdom and that becomes their authority.

Having authority over other people is another thing. To have authority over others would make them "master". Read the verse after the one you quoted.



Mark 13

34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:


When you claim authority over another man, then you have just denied that other "servant" their own authority.



Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.


And now, lets once again quote the verse that follows.




Luke 9

1Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

2And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


To heal the sick?



Matthew 9

12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.




Isn't it funny how Peter became Bishop of Antioch. Wow what an authoritative position to have.I guess Jesus knew what he was talking about was he addressed Simon by his nickname and said "On this rock I will build my church, which will overcome all the evil forces arrayed against it."

Your interpretation makes sense however, this is not what was implied.There are not two different meanings for the word church.only one.


I'm rather certain you don't realize there are 2 different Peter's in the bible.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by badmedia
 


I wasn't avoiding the question, I only thought you could figure it out for yourself.


Does god need humans to kill others for him?

This is a loaded question.Your insinuating that God kills indiscriminately.He does not.


It's not a loaded question, and you have once again avoided it. I asked you very specific question, and you can't answer it. In your avoidance, you for some reason try to justify god or whatever. Did I ask you to justify those things? No, not at all.

Does god need humans to kill others for him?



The methods in which God intervenes with people vary for whatever reasons he sees fit. And he uses whatever means necessary to execute his judgment.

If you read and understand the covenant he made to Abraham correctly, you would have known that the land in which these people were killed was the land that God had promised his descendants.

The people of Palestine had over four hundred years to repent of their wickedness.why do you think God had his people mull around the desert for so long? It wasn't that God knew not where they were going.It was because the iniquity of the people who they were to kill,was not yet full.This means that God would not destroy,or have the people of the land destroyed until their sins were such that their guilt merited their complete destruction in judgment.

The army of Israel was acting according to the direct command of God. This army was the instrument of judgment used by God.



You mention how evil these other nations were, but did you actually read what they themselves were told to do?


They did what they deemed necessary by completely exterminating any trace of the city and its people.If anything or anyone remained there would always have been the threat of heathen influence to pull the people away from pure worship of the lord.


Not to veer off topic or anything.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by truthtothemasses
reply to post by badmedia
 


Why do you continually try and have this discussion with Oliveoil? It is clear that he is stuck in his own ego and cannot get out. He actually believes that Jesus had to physically exist in order for his life to make sense. He talks as if this "god" he speaks of, is the ulimate super ego. Oliveoil is completely lost inside this "christian" bible he so dearly admires.

Why are you wasting your time?? This guy will never understand what you are talking about. Let it be buddy.


Because a doctor goes to heal the sick, not the healthy.

I look at it in reverse. I think, what if it was me that was/is sick. Would I want someone who had the potential to help me to walk away? Would I want them to just give up on me? I wouldn't.

So, I look for people who will disagree with me to debate, rather than those who are like minded.

In the end, the most I could do is plant seeds. I've already planted the seeds in oliveoil, they just don't realize it yet. As that seed(idea) has been planted, then every time in the future when these topics come up, they will remember that seed. And every time they do that, it is watered.

It's something I'm experienced in doing. Nobody ever gives me credit for such, and that is fine, as they are the ones who grew the tree, not me. And nobody ever just up and changes their mind on the spot, and that is fine. But I know that in time people change. I've seen it happen many times.

Everyone will think they are right. It's a given. If they thought they were wrong, then they would change their mind.

Sometimes the soil is harder in places than in others is all. A close minded person just has tougher soil. An open minded person, more open to the seed. But either way, once the tree grows they will have good fruit. So that is what I look to, the tree they will have rather than the hard soil they currently have.

Make sense?



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