The Islam Conspiracy

reply to post by SorensDespair


You are supporting a religion who demands extreme conformity, which clearly identifies which side of the concept you come from.

Morality exists to create communal trust, which allow us to more freely go about our daily business. This is what allows successful civilizations to survive.

When a person, or group, adopt manners which make them a menace to the community, then they are no longer acting morally.

Certain levels of universal morality does exist, but there are always extremist communities that find some acts, such as rape, acceptable under certain circumstances, and punish the victims such as in many Islamic communities.

We aren't talking about universal morality, we are talking about groups who move into communities, and refuse to adopt the moral customs of that community, thereby destroying the communal trust that allows that community to operate.

You don't come off at all at peace, as was clearly demonstrated by your opening salvo of calling me a "little man". The fact that you make these pretentious claims paints you in a very different light than the way you see yourself.

reply to post by poet1b


The local schools in Dearborn that have majority Muslim kids have off days for Muslim holidays, but they also have off days for Christian ones as well. I don't live in Dearborn but I wouldn't have a problem with that. You can accomadate and not be weak or be a prick. Both sides could learn something from that I guess. There are still problems on both sides even here, the trick is to get along inspite of those problems.

reply to post by whatukno


This charter, if that is what you could call it, says nothing at all about being a fortress, as the Islamic charter does. This Christian charter only talks about serving the community.

The fact that you were provided the information, but yet could not tell the clear difference speaks volumes about your willful ignorance.

reply to post by poet1b

I have no feelings of hate or loathing towards these women.

how about towards the men?

reply to post by poet1b


I called you a funny man, not a little one.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by poet1b

 

I have no feelings of hate or loathing towards these women.

how about towards the men?

He clearly holds contempt toward anyone who holds their beliefs, man or woman.

To Poet's other points:
Christianity = serve the community?
Islam = build a fortress and don't let anyone in?

Funny, wasn't it during the crusades that Christians walled off Jerusalem and didn't let anyone in, then when Saladin retook Jerusalem, he let everyone (Jews, Christians and Muslims) in?

reply to post by SorensDespair


I don't glare at anyone. As a child I was taught that you should always look at someone to acknowledge their existence, and to show a level of respect. In the culture in which I was raised, it is considered as rude to refuse to look at someone, as it is to stare at someone.

Were you not raised under such moral considerations?

I can understand why you must view me in such extreme light in order avoid facing the reality of my observations, and the truth in what I say, because to admit that many of these women look and act like women who are badly abused, would mean forcing yourself to admit that you are arguing in favor of a system that enables consistent abuse of women and children.

Such a realization would make it a lot harder to look at yourself in the mirror every morning.

EDIT TO ADD

I don't look at children as beneath me!

Why would you make such a statement, unless that is how you see children. You continue to do my work for me in demonstrating that you have no understanding of morality.

I see children as greater than me, as the future, as great potential.

As a parent, I must assert my authority over my child, but I only do so with the greatest concern that the controls I put in place are designed to allow her to reach her potential, and not to restrict her to mine.





[edit on 9-12-2009 by poet1b]

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by SorensDespair

 

I don't glare at anyone. As a child I was taught that you should always look at someone to acknowledge their existence, and to show a level of respect. In the culture in which I was raised, it is considered as rude to refuse to look at someone, as it is to stare at someone.

Were you not raised under such moral considerations?

Aha! Now, we can begin a true discussion, rather than starting from seemingly extreme viewpoints.

I was raised in a rather large city, which often comes with a culture of social disconnection. Walking down the street and nodding/acknowledgment is not often done. This isn't a moral situation, but a cultural one. Now, we might argue the benefits v hindrances of this, but it certainly is a cultural difference. Now, does that mean that I am less of a person because the culture in which I was raised was different than yours? And, does that mean that you are more of a person, and are in a position to judge my culture?

(note : you already seem to have a problem with me, judging by your last post about the mirror and such, so, above, everywhere I wrote "me" replace it with "your long lost uncle" or something so that it doesn't carry the same bias.)

Originally posted by poet1b

I don't look at children as beneath me!

Why would you make such a statement, unless that is how you see children. You continue to do my work for me in demonstrating that you have no understanding of morality.

I see children as greater than me, as the future, as great potential.


[edit on 9-12-2009 by poet1b]

Intellectually and socially beneath you. Jeez, man! If you didn't, you wouldn't hold the idea that they need to be cared for and sheltered. Your arguments are getting flimsy at this point, so I'll disregard this and let you get back on your feet.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I feel no hatred or loathing towards anyone. There might be times when I feel these powerful emotions, but rarely, and usually over trivial matters. Why would anyone burden themselves with such emotions? There are too many horrible people on this planet to waste you energy hating.

I simply acknowledge what is going on, and act accordingly.

As I have explained before, when the man and the woman are both dressed covering themselves from head to toe, I have equal levels of respect for them.

reply to post by SorensDespair

He clearly holds contempt toward anyone who holds their beliefs, man or woman.

he and I have been through this before - with the burka

it's an argument he clings to - but his entire argument defending the rights of women can't be made without simultaneously arguing against Muslim men

I wonder what kind of argument he might make if there were no burkas - no restrictive dress - no such thing - and all Muslim women dressed as we dress here in the west?

how would poet1b feel about Islam if how Muslim women dressed were not even an issue?

To Poet's other points:
Christianity = serve the community?
Islam = build a fortress and don't let anyone in?

:-)

yes - poet1b on self-segregation...

By segregating themselves, they create the division, and the hostility that division creates.

chicken or the egg?

here where I live - after 9/11 the Muslims disappeared - almost - don't want to exaggerate

but they were all but absent from the places they used to frequent regularly

wasn't exactly a welcoming environment - I wonder if a welcoming environment would make a difference?

Funny, wasn't it during the crusades that Christians walled off Jerusalem and didn't let anyone in, then when Saladin retook Jerusalem, he let everyone (Jews, Christians and Muslims) in?

well - I wasn't there :-)

and I'm no historian - but I take your point

here's something that bothers me - and will for quite some time

I had a Muslim woman as my manager once (you will be greatly relieved to hear poet1b that she dressed as we dress here in the west)

She and her husband both practicing Muslims - but living here for some time - 3 children born and raised here - tax paying - solid American citizens - nice neighborhood...

the day of 9/11 - the very same day and not more than 12 hours after the attacks - people were throwing things at their house - calling with threats - ringing their doorbell in the middle of the night...painting things on their house

not 12 hours later - so the hostility was already there - and waiting for them

their lifestyle was no different from mine

they spent the following few days huddled in the middle of their home - away from all doors and windows - terrified

her young son - in the months after - was a very troubled little boy - nightmares - afraid to go outside - because the other little boys where he went to school were calling him a terrorist and a murderer

little boys

and his mother was coming in to work less frequently - but when she did I saw her crying

not much else I can say about that

and that's just the one story



[edit on 12/9/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by SorensDespair


Nice attempt at a dodge, but that is not at all what you stated. Let me post the entire quote.

And, again, you liken these women to children, which reinforces the idea that you see them not as thinking individuals, but as someone beneath you and your superior ways. You're not doing much to help your case. You claim to not have hate or loathing, but you do seem to have a contempt for their culture, and a disrespect for them as individuals.

Clearly you are projecting your own view of children upon me, which portrays your sense of morality in crystal clear light.

You are the one who sees children not as thinking individuals, but beneath you and your superior ways. If not, you would not have came up with this notion, and projected it upon me.

Yes, children need our protection, our moral guidance, our support, and what wisdom we have to give them, but that does not make us their intellectual or social superiors.

You really don't get the concept that we are all created equal.

Chances are that you see women in the same light, which is why you are such an adamant supporter of the burqa, and need so desperately to belittle me.




[edit on 9-12-2009 by poet1b]

Reply to post by Dock9

Or are just normal people who are not going with the herd and buying the spin and limited view propaganda that is being fed to them? Of course that never occures to some. Easier to demonize people you have never met I know. And they needed someone to replace the great demon Communist Russia.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by poet1b

This charter, if that is what you could call it, says nothing at all about being a fortress, as the Islamic charter does. This Christian charter only talks about serving the community.

I see, I wonder did you bother to read the bible verses quoted within the charter?

Acts 2:44-47

44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 4:32-37

32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34 There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

It seems to me like a communist dictatorship. With even their own courts.

The hate and fear you have been spewing out on this thread is exactly the kind of propaganda that I am talking about in the OP. This fear based propaganda is the conspiracy that I am talking about. Not understanding a culture, but hating that culture because of it's differences to you. Then taking that fear and trying to subject it on everyone else with the threat that this enemy of yours somehow is going to destroy the way of life you hold dear. In fact your posts are pretty much the play book for a propaganda campaign.

You swallowed the propaganda that the people who want to perpetuate the wars in the middle east want you to believe. You have taken it to such heart that it seems that it would be impossible to dissuade you from the fear and hate you have for a culture and religion you don't understand.

While I am not a Muslim, and can't say that I agree with everything Islam is about or understand everything that Islam is about, at least I can understand that as a different culture, it has the right to exist. At least I can put aside any preconceived notion I might have and ask questions. It is amazing what someone can learn about another culture if they are willing to listen and ask questions.

reply to post by SorensDespair


Walking down a crowded street is not the same as standing next to someone looking at the condiments in a grocery store. The conflict over space dictates the exchange of a glance, as do other similar situations. No one can acknowledge everyone walking down the street.

By the way, how do you know if someone is looking at you unless you look at them. It is a dominance issue.

I have been to plenty of big cities, New York included, I am well aware of the cultural differences. Yeah, it is not as friendly as small town America, but there are rules of visual acknowledgment. If you are sharing space with someone, and they don't even glance at you, even in the heart of Manhattan, something is wrong, and it makes you both uncomfortable. Plenty of comedians have mined this territory very successfully, probably since the dawn of time.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Yes, the rights of Muslim women can be supported without going against the rights of Muslim men. Plenty of Muslim men are against the burqa.

If Muslim women were treated as equals to Muslim men, I would respect the religion, but when hold the belief that the word of a woman is considered to be half as valuable as the word of a man, they do not deserve respect, because they do not give respect. Banning the burqa would be a good start.

That you two take comments on two specific charters and apply them as my universal opinion about all Christians and all Muslims, and think that has any credibility is a joke.

I feel for your friends. Muslims are by far the biggest victims of radical Muslims.

As long as the differences between the cultures, and this conflict with the Muslim world is essentially the Muslim world verses everyone else, then things will only get worse.

reply to post by whatukno


What exactly do you think you are saying here?

Nowhere in this quote do they talk about building a fortress.

Communist dictatorship?

Interesting posts and replies. All religions have their good points and bad points, no matter how you look at it and all of them have their extremist and fanaticals that proclaim that it is written in some old dusty book that it is their duty for those actions. Yes there are good points in the past that led to the greatest achievements that all of mankind has to offer, and at the same time has shown the depths of depravity and descrutions the horrors of what pure evil is. But ultimately, what I believe that is going on, partially is fear. Fear on both parts, be it those who are Muslim, who are afraid of either joining a community, and having to accept new ideas that would challenge their ideas, to fear on the other side of the fence where some are afraid of the Muslims because they do not join in that community what so ever. Where I live, it is a very diverse community and I, a white male, happens to be the minority. The community that I live in is a very large Muslim, Asian, and Hispanic community. And all of us believe in different things. However, I can attest to what I have seen. Yes the Hispanic communities have large parties, alot of drinking and eating. But at the same time I can also say that the Muslim comminity tends to shy away from everyone else who is not Muslim and tend to try to control everything in their apartment complex to the point of harassing those who are not Muslim. Now I am all for being religious, and do believe in keeping in mind of cultural identity. But when the opportunity is there to join in that community and you choose not to, who is at fault?

reply to post by whatukno


The fact is that you support the people who are the aggressors, and attack the people who are speaking out in defense of their own culture and liberty.

You are the person spewing fear and hate, who has bought into the propaganda, and now continue to spread it.

You and your fellow supporters of Islamic radicals have consistently attacked me personally, and twisted my posts at every opportunity.

No doubt you would be saying the same things about the founding fathers of the U.S. during the revolution, who took up arms to establish our liberties.

The aggressions of Islam is being put upon everywhere that Islam succeeds in getting established, even in Russia, our cold war enemy. The violence, death and destruction that these Muslim radicals visit upon the people everywhere is not some propaganda creation, it is real, and it continues to happen, and will continue to happen until something is done about.

Cower in your delusions all you want, this is a problem that will not simply go away. Either we do something to defend our liberty, or it will be taken away from us.

reply to post by sdcigarpig

...But at the same time I can also say that the Muslim comminity tends to shy away from everyone else who is not Muslim and tend to try to control everything in their apartment complex to the point of harassing those who are not Muslim. Now I am all for being religious, and do believe in keeping in mind of cultural identity. But when the opportunity is there to join in that community and you choose not to, who is at fault?

what if we were to look at immigrants in general - and not focus on the Muslims

things have changed a lot in the past 100 years here in the US - there have been many different groups of people that used to keep primarily to themselves earlier on

I also wonder about something we can't know - how different would it be if 9/11 had never happened?

I remember how it was before with the Muslims I knew - in the places I used to go

I can't comment on what you just mentioned - maybe it would be different

we may think it's a welcoming environment - but maybe not so much from their point of view