The Islam Conspiracy

Originally posted by JJay55

Oh baby, those hot red stilettos are so worth it. I can flaunt what I have and enjoy male attention. I can walk the streets and enjoy catcalls. Yes, it's fun to be a woman in the West.

Awesome,

What a deep and profound thing you have said.


I must go and meditate on this... it's just so deep.

My opinion is abolish all religion. That is the simple and best solution. Religion causes nothing but problems, Never has one good thing come from it. And that is all religion, except maybe buddahism and wiccan... can't say i've ever heard either of those doing anything genocidal lol. But catholics, jews, islamics, all of them just kill and then say oops my bad and move on. Who knows what science and information these religions hold in their archieves which they have deemed unworthy to be seen by human eyes for it is not the will of "god".

Faith, is a great thing and brings people together, and keeps individuals strong.

And to anyone who says the Muslim religion is peaceful, is a complete moron. Read the Koran and you shall see your stupidity. It starts out telling people to be good and nice and accepting, but the second half tells to kill all non believers and occupy non muslim areas and take over.

It is utterly obserd that someone would see muslims/Islam as non threatening.

reply to post by voudew


Fundamentalism is threatening. Religions are not. Muslims are not threatening, but fundamentalist Muslims are. The same goes for fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Jews.

The world would be a better place if we didn't need religion. Lots of good has come from it - mainly art, but far more bad has sprung forth from its insidious viral behaviour.

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by voudew

 

Muslims are not threatening, but fundamentalist Muslims are.

See, the problem with this is you take people like the non threatening Ft Hood shooter, or the kid who drove and SUV into some students, or the Buffalo TV producer who beheaded his wife, or thousands of others and you can't tell who's fundamental and who's not. They don't come with a label, why? Because there is no difference in Islam. Islam is Islam and includes all government, social and cultural aspects. So it's very clear when the principles aren't blocked by Western thinking of diversity and multiculturalism. Islam doesn't see diversity and multiculturalism, it's against the Law.

reply to post by JJay55

See, the problem with this is you take people like the non threatening Ft Hood shooter, or the kid who drove and SUV into some students, or the Buffalo TV producer who beheaded his wife, or thousands of others and you can't tell who's fundamental and who's not.

And your confusing nut cases with fundamentalism. How many people are murdered each year by those that would report themselves Christian, including South American gang members? How many times do you hear of someone going off? It happens all the time. Many of these people are Christian. So if we are to take your theory this way, we would have to assume that all Christians are potential murderers as well. After all, there is a lot in the Bible that directs Christians to kill.

It's an excuse for sure, just like saying "God told me to kill" or "The Devil made me do it". It's a huge pile of horse dung. People who kill have something wrong with them personally, it's not the religions fault. It's the person. People no matter what religion they are, have free will to kill or not.

[edit on 12/13/2009 by whatukno]

And to the point of abolishing religion....

People are nuts. End of story. They'll use something as an excuse to act out of their own insanity. Look at the crazy stuff people do in the name of nationalism! They'll torture prisoners because their commanding officer told them so.

I served for awhile in Sinai while I was in the Army. Something that has always puzzled me was people are always saying that Muslims are evil and out to destroy anything non-muslim. And for certain fringe elements that is true, just like it's true in all religions.

And yet, the people I met there... the Bedouins in particular... were the kindest, most generous souls I've ever encountered. They were so poor, and yet thought nothing of including us AMERICAN strangers in their meals. Offering us sweet tea, and despite the language barrier, made us feel welcome.

Don't get me wrong though. I think their religion, like all others is flawed and holds humanity back through superstition and fairy tales.
But the people were truly good.

Just goes to show you that painting entire groups with broad strokes is never justified.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by Angus123]

poet1b, You have quite a lot of hostility towards womens clothing. Do I sense a hidden desire here? You know how some extreme homophobes harbor secret homosexual desires.

I mean it went from just the hijab to now pantyhose and shoes. I mean really, what is the deal man.



Seems to me there is a lot of fashion to this. (well maybe not the full Burqa but the Hijab)

But throughout the world people view fashion in different ways. Take for an example the Suri tribe of Africa...

en.wikipedia.org...

Many recent sources (Beckwith and Carter for example)[4] claim that, for Mursi and Surma women, the size of their lip plate indicates the number of cattle paid as the bride price. However anthropologist Turton, who has studied the Mursi for 30 years, denies this.[5]
These days, it appears that Mursi girls of age 13 to 18 decide for themselves whether to wear a lip plate or not. The lip plates worn by Mursi and Surma women have been instrumental in making them a popular tourist attraction in recent years, with mixed consequences for these tribes.[6][7]

Then what about neck rings?

en.wikipedia.org...

he custom of wearing neck rings is related to an ideal of beauty: an elongated neck.[2] Neck rings push the collarbone and ribs down.[3] The neck stretching is mostly illusory; the weight of the rings twists the collar bone and eventually the upper ribs to create the illusion of an elongated neck.

Women wear clothing or apparel that in their culture makes them look more attractive. In Muslim cultures, it's not about looking attractive, but being more modest, but obviously as I have demonstrated, there is a fashion to it as well.





[edit on 12/13/2009 by whatukno]

www.blip.tv...

This video was made by the Chicago Police Department about Islam, and I applaud them for it. All the hate and ignorance in this thread was really making me disappointed with ATS, but I'm glad an old friend sent me the link to the above video.

Being an American Muslim (born and raised in Chicago--been here all my life and I'm a fairly devout Muslim too), it really made my day. I wouldn't tolerate anyone trampling over my rights as I certainly wouldn't trample over others' rights. I'm glad there are at least some decent people out there who have respect for another's way of life.

P.S. --- For those cop-haters out there, this also goes to show that the police are at least trying to learn more about the people they protect and serve, so they can better perform their duties.

I leave you all with a quote from George Washington:

"May the children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid."

Alright. here goes. I read up to page 7/8, then thought I should put in my two cents.

Dock9 and Poet, I agree with you and a few others. Dock9 especially since you seem to be pretty clued in what's going on in Australia.

I don't know where to begin.

I was born to a muslim family.

I don't believe in that religion, or any organised religion.

Islam I feel is a very oppressive religion towards woman. To me, the way I look at it, it was made up by some mad man who wanted to make his own rules so he could do whatever he wanted - including marrying a 6 year old girl - but of course that was alright because he waited till she was 9 to f**k her, right? didn't think so.

I'm sure you've all heard the whole "if you do good and later, you'll go to heaven and be awarded 70-something virgins". Never have I heard about women's rewards. What, we get recycled and become virgins in heaven to serve men? gtfo.

The hijab/burqa/veil I always found ridiculous aswell. I never liked it once, but I was MADE to wear it every friday at school when I was still in my country. - now I'm in Australia, I love it, though I am beginning to be a bit paranoid since hearing about that girl a few years back that was raped multiple times by the muslim gang because she was Australian.

to those people that say we should view these as individual crimes and not as a religious based crimes.
we did try.
well I did.
but what do you do when you hear one of their leaders say that women who aren't covered from head to two are presenting themselves like a raw piece of meat? what do you do when they practically declare that they can do that because they're muslims and that's how it is in their culture? that women are a game of rape if they aren't covered up.

I used to LOVE Sydney. I used to love coming here for holidays, and I was excited to come and live in Australia. now that I've lived here for quite sometime, I've begun to see the terrible things that go on.

Racism. why is Racism always the white man's fault, it's always the white man being racist to an aboriginal, a white man being racist to an asian, a white man being racist to a muslim.
But racism happens to the white man aswell, but nothing ever gets done about it, Sydney doesn't even feel like Sydney anymore because 80% of it pretty much refuses to speak English. If you work in the CBD, you'll notice how you pretty much get treated like # because you don't speak Cantonese or whatever the f**k language it is they speak. And this coming from an asian.

Now back to the muslim thing.
I have been with my fiance for almost 2 years now. He's Australian. My mother refuses to acknowledge our status because he's Australian and not muslim, and wants us to get married the muslim way, because it is important to her. she won't have it any other way.
But what about us? what about what WE want?
Why should they think I am a muslim just because I am their daughter? Nobody should be BORN into a religion, I believe people should be able to choose for themselves. I grew up in a very islamic environment, but I have now chosen not to participate, simply because I have seen and experience enough hate and violence come from it.

people who say Dock9 is a result of the propaganda. get stuffed. you don't know what it's like to be looked at by these men as if you're a piece of meat waiting to be raped. I wear a knee length skirt and a singlet to work and ALWAYS get stared like that by arabs and indians. fair enough not all of them are muslim, but some the ones that have committed the crimes have admitted that they do this because the girls aren't covered head to toe and/or are Australian. Likening women dressed in non-muslim get-up as a piece of meat is wrong in ANY context.

now you can't say to me I haven't given the religion a chance or I'm being racist or anything like that, because I've spent the first 18 years of my life being around them, having it enforced by my parents. Fortunately I woke up

reply to post by whatukno


to be fair to poet1b - pretty sure I was the one expressing hostility towards stockings and shoes

:-)

I really meant it too

[edit on 12/14/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by traumst_du

Well said.
Since you are seeing a non-muslim man are you also a possible victim of an honor killing? That has taken place in the States and is increasing in incident. Girls want to be Westernized because it's freedom and men insist on keeping control no matter what it takes.

reply to post by Angus123


We really aren't talking about individual people. Because for the most part all humans are cool. But there is a government, religion and culture that is Islam that is against freedom, and for violence. So if we distinguish this we can get into conversation without all the misconceptions of racism... which Westerners usually confuse with the point.

reply to post by traumst_du


Exactly you might not have had a choice living in a muslim country but now you can do what you want.You have a choice!

My question is how about all those muslim women living in the West wearing hijab and burqa?

Surely they are not opressed because they also have a choice like you and no one can stop them?

reply to post by JJay55

We really aren't talking about individual people.

I disagree

So if we distinguish this we can get into conversation without all the misconceptions of racism... which Westerners usually confuse with the point.

:-)

please explain

Sorry late to the party.

I'm growing weary of the two noticeable/extreme sides in this debate:

A). The hate brigade. These individuals are the ones who are quick to jump on the bandwagon to stereotype, bash, and take on the alarmist mentality that EVERY Muslim is hell bent on murder and world domination.

B). The PC brigade. These individuals are the ones who are quick to dismiss everything, poo-poo everyone who takes an interest in the topic, and has to remind everyone that things are/were just as bad in other groups. Bonus points if the word 'bigot' is directed at those who can acknowledge radicalism as a potential problem.

Group A is dangerous because they believe everyone is in on it. Group B is dangerous because they ignore very serious problems. Both groups are equally dangerous due to the fact they're not processing facts but only regurgitating an opinion they have been fed: Either hate or tolerance at all costs.

I don't know why it is so hard to grasp the fact there most definitely is a very powerful and dedicated segment of Islamic fundamentalists that wish to overcome and 'Islamify' the world. I also don't know why it is so hard to grasp the fact there most definitely are some Muslims who just want to live their life like everyone else.

Both extremes are very dangerous and one becomes either blinded by hate or by PC brainwashing.

Yes, there is definitely something going on in the way the OP suggests in the sense there is an underlying current to use Islam as a bogeyman. There is also some underlying current to turn a blind eye to a potential threat because we're too scared to say it like it is or be deemed intolerant if we so much as recognize fundamentalism as a problem.

[edit on 12/14/2009 by AshleyD]

reply to post by Muckster

OK... when i lived in Newham the majority of woman in a store would be in burqas or hijabs... so i guess thats a yes.

Woman who did not wear burqas or hijabs where not harassed (This includes my mother, sisters and friends)

It is good to hear that not all Islamic communities in western nations who takeover a neighborhood start becoming abusive to non-Muslims, because all of the stories I have been reading portray the situation differently than what you have observed.

I imagine Muslim communities are all unique, like individuals all have their uniqueness. It may possibly be a reflection of the local Iman. If the local Iman calls for tolerance, sees the need to blend with the local culture, and become a part of the local culture, then the local community will most likely reflect those values.

However, when the local Iman preaches intolerance and calls for establishment of sharia law, then there is a much higher likelihood that this community will most likely be radicalized, and hostile to non-Muslims.

Any political or religious leaders who calls for women to be raped, or for that matter, describe women who refuse to dress to their standards as pieces of meat asking to be raped, should be jailed in some dark dank dungeon until they rot as far as I am concerned.

Can you understand my attitude about this?

Yeah, there are a lot of men who have no respect for women.

In Islam, I see an entire religion that has no respect for women and is based on denigrating and subjectifying women.

Why should I respect a religion who considers the word of a woman to be half as valuable as the word of a man?

And I have to ask myself why any woman would belong to such a religion.

reply to post by merkava

Why do muslim women wear burqa living in the West where they do HAVE A CHOiCE? No one can force them!

Seriously, you are kidding right? You can't be that naive.

People certainly can be forced to do things against their will through all the tried and proven methods.

The easiest, quickest, and dirtiest method is physical torture. Beat them until they do what you demand.

Of course Pavlov showed that this could be done by far more subtle means.

The tools used by people to bend others to their will have long ago been developed. Isolate them, teach them that anything they want that you disapprove of is a sin against god, and then apply a regular random application of emotional, mental, and physical abuse to be extremely effective. Convince the victims that they will never be able to escape, and that attempts to escape will be punished severely, if necessary, by death, which is why we see honor killings.

You might want to think back to the tools used by whoever brainwashed you.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


It is his need to de-humanize me to justify going to war against me.

Because I have a problem with the way Islam looks at women, I must be some kind of monster.

reply to post by AshleyD

I don't know why it is so hard to grasp the fact there most definitely is a very powerful and dedicated segment of Islamic fundamentalists that wish to overcome and 'Islamify' the world. I also don't know why it is so hard to grasp the fact there most definitely are some Muslims who just want to live their life like everyone else.

That is exactly the point!!!! It is a segment of Islamic fundamentalists! And until certain individuals stop using language that implies that it’s ALL Muslims I will continue to call them bigots.

Other than that I am happy to discuss the rotten "elements" of any group/religion/belief/culture as long as it is a sensible discussion that doesn’t descend into hate (something we are seeing way too much of at the moment!!)

And to me it seems obvious... before 911/war in Iraq and Afghanistan I hardly see any hate towards Muslims... in my mind this is nothing but an attempt to dehumanise an entire group of people in order to make a war against that people more palatable!

I do agree that we shop not let political correctness stop us from discussion serious issue... but we have to be very careful, when discussing them issue’s, that we do not fall into the comfortable trap of generalizing.