Why are there so many people obsessed with the Masons?

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

Ah my friend FitzGibbon there is that fighting Irish spirit!

First ATS is a conspiracy site. Some people would like to imagine conspiracies do not exist while they busily conspire to petty ends of little consequence, like cheating on their spouses, or taxes, or how to beat out someone at the office for a raise or promotion.

The world is full of conspiracies as ‘No man is an Island’. What humans most often do is in fact conspire with one another in mutual endeavors. Sometimes they even conspire against one another in mutual endeavors.

So you better understand a very odd and strange thing happened to me back in 1964. I became manifest on this Earth!

It did not take long to spot a couple of very important things. Primarily that it was a violent war torn place deeply entrenched in a culture of violence and death. That it was a place rich in resources of every kind but that mass starvation and deprivation existed throughout the planet.

Now if you are like most people (not saying that you are) you will have one thousand and one excuses for that, and why that is, and one thousand and two excuses as to why the people of the planet can’t change that status quo and a thousand and three excuses as to why you and I can not do that.

It is true Masonry has its Masters. Yet there are two kinds of Masters my friend. There are Masters of men and there are Masters of the Universe.

Masters of men seek other men’s submission to them, by accepting their ideas and perspective, world view and leadership and compliantly and preferably eagerly accept their direction, leadership and answers.

Masters of the Universe seek knowledge. It can be argued that Masters of men seek knowledge too but for a very different purpose.

Masters of the Universe seek knowledge to help enlighten people and to help them evolve.

Masters of men seek knowledge because it can be used in secretive ways as a tool to control other men.

Notice the word secretive?

It is said that for one to know where they are going, one must understand first where it is they are, and to understand where one is, one must look at the past to see from whence they came and how they arrived at the precise point and juncture of space and time they presently occupy.

So though many people who have a thousand one, two or three excuses for how the world is and why I have taken it upon myself to reverse engineer history to ascertain precisely where I am and how I got here so I can move forward and help other people to do so too.

Of course this becomes problematic to the extent that Masters of men rewrite history primarily in large part to justify the need for war and the artificial scarcity that comes from hording abundant resources from the masses. To in essence make people jump through hoops for an allotment of those resources based on their level of performance in the hoops they jump through.

One thing is clear and that is the nature of human life on the planet and that is that it is run, and always has been as a mining and drilling operation. Gold, Black Gold, Silver, Copper, Bauxite, Uranium, Platinum, Diamonds just to name a few are what humans are tasked to dig and drill for.

Every other form of business and commerce is based on support of these mining operations.

The mining is the very base root of what drives everything in our society. If we actually stopped the mining all of society would basically disintegrate looking for another common purpose to base its notions of wealth and commerce on.

The second important thing of note is that the Earth is a slave planet. People are slaves to this mining effort in part because they really aren’t even fully cognizant of it and its purpose.

The most enslaved person is that person who imagines they are free. Most of the slaves on planet earth are free range slaves. They are permitted to roam to a certain degree with papers and permission and to the extent that their success in the mining operation or support of it has allowed them to garner enough script (worthless paper currency attached to nothing of value) for passages and services and goods available through the company store (the State and it’s corporations).

Shared belief systems instilled in them from birth on enslave them and bind them into ‘shared realities’ based on masses of people accepting as true, things that are patently untrue and in many cases patently absurd.

They are in fact provided with the thousand and one, two, or three excuses to explain all those things away to other people who have been similarly indoctrinated and conditioned.
Now maybe you enjoy war, or the notion that people right now are starving in mass even though the shelves at our local stores are jammed full of every conceivable commodity and luxury as well.

You strike me as a decent sort, a good well intentioned man, so I doubt you enjoy those things, but I do not doubt you enjoy the peace of mind either of an accepted one thousand one, two, or three excuses to absolve yourself of having to do anything to rectify this situation in a truly substantial and effective way. After all some of those one thousand, one, two or three excuses have thoroughly convinced you and most everyone that one person can not make a difference and it is foolish to try.

So I ask you humbly my friend, who amongst us then will try? Who amongst us dares to dream that seemingly impossible dream of peace, prosperity, and enlightenment for all?

The reality is hardly anyone and for good reason, for when they step out of line, there is no shortage of people with one thousand, one, two or three excuses telling them they should not. Get back in line, back to work you dog, stop your day dreaming, and dig!

Now most people find great comfort in the fictions that are foisted on them generation after generation, the fact that these fictions survive generation after generation make them all the more attractive and easy to accept with peer pressure, and the rewards of validation and the notion of absolution.

Yet another thing goes on generation after generation as well, war, death, disease, poverty, famine and starvation and a deeply instilled and entrenched attitude of indifference to and acceptance of it.

Another thing continues on and on generation after generation as well and that is the mining operations.

Mining operations controlled and owned by a very small number of principles who often own the banks and the presses that print the script for use in the corporate stores they often own and control too.

You don’t have to be Einstein to figure this out, you do have to have a lot of patience though when it comes to people’s one thousand, one, and two or three excuses for it and acceptance of it.

For you see my friend there are far more Masters of men who would like to maintain this status quo for self serving reasons than there are Masters of the Universe who would like to help elevate and see humankind evolve into something more user friendly and productive.

Of course one of the reasons this does not happen is many, many people labor under some false notion that there individual way is part of the solution when in reality it is part of the problem.
Where as Mao did have something to say regarding power and gun barrels Mao also had this to say:

“You are a reckless adventurer playing into the hands of the existing order”.

Now it is pretty clear based on 2,000 plus years of history and actually much more that the major stake holders that own the mines and most of their support operations are not going to change this inhumane system of slavery for the better at any point. There only interest is in making it more productive and that we allow masses of humanity simply to perish because there is no productive use for them in the mining operations or their support operations is obvious to anyone who cares to take an honest look at the world.

That means one of us, ideally all of us must work together to change the status quo.

We need not do that through secret societies, in reality there is every reason to believe that secret societies help maintain the Status Quo and if they don’t they are deficient to effect a healthier and more human change for the planet which makes them pretty much useless and if not direct conspirators they are part of the problem even if their own egos and codex’s prevent them from seeing that with their own special one thousand, one, two or three excuses.

To answer a few of your questions of note, King Henry VIII (note the Roman numerals!) did in fact establish the Angelical Church in part to try to create an elusive heir to his Tudor Dynasty.

What he didn’t create was an alternative belief system but much like the Protestants simply created laxer more flexible rules for the current belief system.

This is not a belief system change, same G-d, same Devil, same Heaven, same Hell, wow what a difference huh?

It lessened some of Rome’s direct control but Rome controls in large part through the base belief system which remained unmolested.

In my humble opinion Rome went underground in the guise of a religious order fronting for it to eliminate pressure on it for goods and services while it worked on enslaving the entire world under common systems.

So giving a little more latitude would have been very much in Rome’s favor as long as the core belief system did not change and it did not change. This flexibility makes Rome more powerful not less powerful.

Next mad King George was not just King of England, his first and foremost and most important title was prince George with a small p, which in itself denotes it is a non-revocable title unlike King. That prince title did not have anything to do with England he was a prince of the Holy Roman Empire. (continued)

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


He was German in ancestry and his father was the last Holy Roman Emperor in its capitol of Berlin.

He was not just a prince of the Holy Roman Empire but a prince elector, he could lawfully elect states into the Empire as he did with the United States of America, he could lawfully elect Emperors, princes and Presidents which the latter he did for the United States of America. His last title of many was arch-treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire and the United States of America.

Yet one of many more titles mad George possessed was KING OF FRANCE, the France of the Holy Roman Empire which King Louis along with a large portion of France was contesting.

They were contesting it in large part with a lot of help from a group called the MASONS!

Napoleon in fact crowned himself emperor (the anniversary was about two weeks ago) but he did so with PAPAL BLESSING and in reality the Pope crowned Napoleon Emperor in part to bring France back under Roman Control which despite his impressive efforts prince George, the King of England and France for the Holy Roman Empire could not do.

While the History of Wars and Nations are often entirely fictional accounts where no surviving long dead person who was there exists to credibly decry and denounce them and set the record straight the by product of Wars the end result of which are the TREATIES.

Treaties are not works of fiction they represent binding agreements between principals who often only disclose their true and full respective powers to the representatives and plenipotentiaries that they sign Treaties with.

Treaties are legally binding contracts and when you just keep following them back chronologically and researching the titles and the powers and the true meaning of the words, they all lead to Rome and a Rome that in no Treaty ever went out of business or dismissed any of its claims or rights.

History is reading in between the lines, and in between the Treaties and providing those thousand and one, two and three excuses and reasons for the masses to accept a murderous and stifling status quo.

Fictional History does not support the outcome of these very real and binding Treaties.

The Treaties speak for themselves.

Who does not speak for themselves are human beings, they speak with one or several of one thousand and one, two or three excuses provided to them.

Masters of the Universe seek truth and enlightenment and a way forward. Masters of men seek profit, control and power in maintaining a brutal status quo.

Masters of the Universe gladly and freely share their knowledge to help make the Universe a better place.

Masters of Men guard their knowledge and keep secrets to help enslave and rule over other men.

Humans are trained to fight for their Masters the stake holders with a thousand and one, two or three excuses why.

Masters of the Universe dismiss nothing out of hand, or make excuses for a failed status quo, or place any greater importance on one group of human beings over another.

Masters of Men are Mastered and Controlled by Puppet Masters who very often the Masters of Men don’t understand how they have been Mastered and Manipulated by Puppet Masters.

Masters of the Universe serve the Universe; they look for peace, wisdom and love, empathy and compassion to be their guides and rewards.

I ask you human to human FitzGibbons who dares to change this world?




[edit on 10/12/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

It is true Masonry has its Masters. Yet there are two kinds of Masters my friend. There are Masters of men and there are Masters of the Universe.

But Masons are typically accused of being the former much more casually than the latter. Using your definitions, the two are birds of a feather. But you ignore the third, that is being Master of one's soul and that is what Freemasons strive to be. Incarnate masters are fleeting and inconsequential and there is but one Master of the Universe who we may meet on the next plane.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Masters of men seek knowledge because it can be used in secretive ways as a tool to control other men.

Notice the word secretive?

And the penny drops.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The most enslaved person is that person who imagines they are free.

And those craving possession are the most enslaved. But we digress. The desire for an open, egalitarian society while laudable won't happen anytime soon simply because society as a whole has to see its advantages over its perceived disadvantages. In short, we have to move away from the "me" and towards the "we". This won't happen in a meaningful way anytime while anyone reading this has their time on this stage.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Shared belief systems instilled in them from birth on enslave them and bind them into ‘shared realities’ based on masses of people accepting as true, things that are patently untrue and in many cases patently absurd.

Actually, those "shared belief systems" are intended to instill a view beyond the personal, something the human creature doesn't default to.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
So I ask you humbly my friend, who amongst us then will try? Who amongst us dares to dream that seemingly impossible dream of peace, prosperity, and enlightenment for all?

To dream is to absolve one's self of responsibility. To act is the only coin of the realm that lasts. Witness civil rights in all its flavours over the last two centuries for example.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Now most people find great comfort in the fictions that are foisted on them generation after generation, the fact that these fictions survive generation after generation make them all the more attractive and easy to accept with peer pressure, and the rewards of validation and the notion of absolution.

The "fictions" are static in their general direction but their execution in specifics vary from generation to generation and collectively, they move society in fits and spurts towards a general and desired improvement that benefits the majority.

The "fictions" stand the test of time not because they are facilely accepted as easier than the alternative but precisely because they have been repeatedly challenged and further tempered in that crucible of questioning.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
For you see my friend there are far more Masters of men who would like to maintain this status quo for self serving reasons than there are Masters of the Universe who would like to help elevate and see humankind evolve into something more user friendly and productive.

And until mankind values the equality over selfishness, it will be ever thus. In any case, the masters in this realm will ultimately bend to the Master in the next. Why lay up perishable treasure?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
That means one of us, ideally all of us must work together to change the status quo.

We need not do that through secret societies,

Masonry is but one more arrow in the quiver to that end. And here you go off on a tangent as if Freemasonry (and I assume by extension Knights of Columbus, Oddfellows, Rotarians, etc.) act apart from the societal constructs we task with these intents. The simple fact is that we (and I think I can confidently say) and they work in harmony with the expressed intent of those societal constructs and trust that they will uphold their end of the bargain. Typically, they do and the result is magnified.

But as you mentioned earlier, "no man is an island" and no one group can or will effect so meaningful a change in an instant. Impatience is the territory of the fool.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
in reality there is every reason to believe that secret societies help maintain the Status Quo

Because you are unfamiliar with the truth of secret societies and prefer facile criticism? This doesn't bode well for you leading the vanguard of societal change which is a far more involved undertaking.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
and if they don’t they are deficient to effect a healthier and more human change for the planet

Remember what I said about impatience?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
which makes them pretty much useless and if not direct conspirators they are part of the problem even if their own egos and codex’s prevent them from seeing that with their own special one thousand, one, two or three excuses.

You presume much about groups that you don't actually know anything about. Unnoticed does not mean undone.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Next mad King George was not just King of England,

and here we start veering off into the brushes.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
[snip]
Masters of the Universe gladly and freely share their knowledge to help make the Universe a better place.

Masters of Men guard their knowledge and keep secrets to help enslave and rule over other men.

Then Masons must make rather poor "Masters of Men" insomuch as the ritual has been made available for...oh, only pushing three centuries. But the more that's told, the more the fevered brow insists that it's incomplete or the revealer not actually privy to the 'real' secrets. And it will be ever thus.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I ask you human to human FitzGibbons who dares to change this world?

Those in society who recognise the inherent value of an egalitarian construct. However, the realist recognises that an entirely egalitarian construct does have its Achilles Heal and it's the fool that insists that only one way of doing things is correct and browbeats anyone who would council balance. Speaking for myself, I'm all for balance because in the long run, it can tolerate more challenges than either extreme.

Pretty impressive FitzGibbons you only employed a fraction of the typical one thousand, one, two or three excuses.

All of which only reinforce your current thinking and in no way shape or form challenge this.

There is a thing called patience, and then there is a thing called stuck on stupid.

These advancements you perceive are simply only advancements in productivity and efficiency whether it’s in the mining operations or how efficiently we kill and dispatch one another.

The human condition remains entirely unchanged since the days of Ur.

It is a patently absurd deception that lulls many people into confusing the advent of science and technology that only better allows the Stake Holders to profit and horde more and in many ways dole out less as a result.

So too is the notion of advancement in human rights. While it’s true that some limited freedoms have been offered to segments of the human populace previously denied any often to achieve this parity other limited freedoms are taken away from the segments of the population that have been granted more.

While it is true on segment is elevated another segment is caused to digress and is stripped of some of its privileges to attain a greater degree of parity amongst the slaves of the world.

While this illusion provides the notion of limited progress for some it ignores entirely the devolution and digression of those being stripped of ‘rights’ at their expense to create the greater rights of minority elements while they in and of them selves are marginally better than what was previously known it was accomplished at a net loss overall and not a net gain.

This notion of we being preferable to the notion of we you speak of is simply the notion of shared identities like the Masons.

Where it becomes enslaving is FitzGibbon’s the natural human being is not considering my arguments or debates as a natural human being he is considering them as how they specifically pertain to his identity as and allegiance to Masonry.

Of course you joined this group for the reason everyone joins a group, the notion that it is superior in its philosophy and that by partaking in it that you have some kind of leg up or edge through partnership with that consortium.

It offers your ego validation in that regard and provides a support mechanism for that validation that comes complete with a circular form of logic that grants absolution.

For all those 90 degree angles and allegories and gradients and quotients that please you and offer some imagined degree of enlightenment and progress and superior way the plain truth remains nothing as far as the human condition has changed since Ur.

Why because there are a thousand and one, and two, and three reasons provided including the tenets of Masonry to lull people into this absurd notion that evolution has to by nature be a slow process.

Of course it will be a very slow process when people cling to myths and dogmas and various forms of circular logic that are all designed to not just create a defeating circle of logic that ultimately leads to enslaving acceptance but the continuation of the exact same Status Quo that has in all reality existed for 10,000 years.

That my friend is STUCK ON STUPID, and often the most stupid and stupefied person is the one who imagines themselves superiorly clever whether as an individual or in a shared group identity.

What perpetuates this system of death, violence, greed, indifference and cruelty is in fact the individual’s propensity to decry those with different perspectives as being deranged or foolish, impatient and absurd.

In essence those one thousand and one, two and three excuses.

Ultimately by your own admission you feel an overwhelming desire to defend something that in reality despite the illusions has not accomplished one notable thing except more war, death, violence, greed, indifference and cruelty.

You just are not able to view it in that way because of the validation and hope and absolution it holds out to you as an individual.

A circle the wagons approach does not make the world a better place, letting go of false notions and ideals and dogmas and moving forward in more effective ways that can produce tangible results does.

Many of the secret societies are involved in perpetuating Rome’s rule, and the status quo. Most of them are designed to relieve pressure of the Stake Owners and to highlight exploitable differences and to remove those differences through conflict to attain a homogenous less threatening mass.

To that end the Masonic concept of math as it applies to life is valid but only to the extent that they willfully help if even unwittingly to effect these divisions and eventual consolidations through a violent form of arithmetic.
Are you able to think in simply human terms or are you actually unbeknownst to you tied to Masonic dogma, lore and myth?

Is the we that you imagine really healthier and wiser than the me you would chide and encourage so many to neglect for the good of the we?

That’s the question FitzGibbons and in reality if you haven’t read and researched all the Treaties which are the real defining moments of history then you are basically accepting camp fire stories as your reality.

Attempting to ridicule others for taking the time, well? One could only wonder why that is, or what would cause someone who hasn’t done an in depth and open minded objective study to say “here we go again”.

That it upsets your sensibilities more as a Mason a ‘we’, than a human being a me, is telling, patience is a virtue to a certain extent FitzGibbons it ceases to be when it leads to entrenched procrastination.

10,000 years? Sounds like procrastination to me. Time for some more of those one thousand and one and two and three excuses because the reality is some people are simply unwilling to consider the reality of failed ways.

More so especially when those failed ways serve their Masters so well.

If you have not met the creator of the universe it’s probably a bad idea to assume what that creator wants.

It is simply another form of deflection and deference and submission to ideals and notions that perpetuate bondage and slavery to the status quo. A deadly inhuman violent and primitive status quo and a tragic indifference to the plight of and condition of the world, that so many people seek out snake oil salesmen to sell them a different notion that absolves them from changing it, and tolerating it and accepting it. Free Masonry for most is just another bottled elixir to that end.

It is a box, a trap, a herd, and a movement that just dwells within a box and a trap and a herd.

You of course aren’t meant to really see that. Is it any wonder that you don’t?




[edit on 10/12/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Pretty impressive FitzGibbons you only employed a fraction of the typical one thousand, one, two or three excuses.

so while I am on the outside of this conversation, am I to assume that you will lead us all into a better tomorrow? Because I am ripe for a leader. I agree that we as humans need to live as one instead of living for one. I just think it's a bit rude to blame Fitz for the misgivings of society if you are not ready to stand up and lead.

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Pretty impressive FitzGibbons you only employed a fraction of the typical one thousand, one, two or three excuses.

so while I am on the outside of this conversation, am I to assume that you will lead us all into a better tomorrow? Because I am ripe for a leader. I agree that we as humans need to live as one instead of living for one. I just think it's a bit rude to blame Fitz for the misgivings of society if you are not ready to stand up and lead.

So it this one we should all be living for FitzGibbons then?

I hear a whole lot of we and temperance and patience but no offence it keeps coming out and being centered on the me, me, me, me.

There is a difference my friend between challenging people to think and attacking them.

There is a difference between being critical and providing constructive criticism.

To see the difference one has to step outside of the box to look objectively.

Most people have been indoctrinated into seeing challenges and constructive criticisms as an indictment against them and to then focus on a defense, which sometimes is in the form of an offense against the person being constructively critical or challenging.

For all the we talk, the defense is always based on me and a limited we that me has aligned myself with.

The reality is much of what I will share won't even provoke real objective thought to the defensive me oriented, herd oriented reader.

It will simply be digested only to the extent it requires to formulate a defense against allowing it to lead to a deeper level of thought and understanding.

The typical enslaving and defeating methods will be used. I have been injured, I am being liabled.

No you aren't being injured or libeled you simply perceive that you are as a defensive mechanism to not challenge your previously validated beliefs.

You don't know me! I love that one, do you know you? Most people are very unfamiliar with the person in the mirror by the way.

You don't know what you are talking about. This is a time honored one as it implies that the person who claims this knows what they are talking about!

Your way is not superior where do you get off claiming it is? This is another great one as all it is really saying is my way is supperior I just need to put you on the defensive to establish dominance to that end.

That's just crazy! This is a good way to make the crazy things everyone does seem not so crazy or at all.

Here we go again! That's a way to say please lets not go there that's a pool I am not sure if I can even swim in, lets keep it where I am comfortable please, lets not cause me to challenge my way of thinking please, lets challenge your way of thinking instead, and put you on the defensive by being defensive first myself but in an offended and then offensive way.

These are emotional domination ploys and all standard self absorbed peer pressure tactics.

I am not attacking anyone. I am sharing and challenging people and asking them to revisit and take a harder look at the status quo.

I am telling people we need not make excuses for or support a culture of violence and death that insanely enriches a very privileged few who have every means and motive to maintain it and perpetuate it.

I am telling people they need not be enslaved to failed ideas, notions, or organizations that despite their varied principles and missions have not accomplished anything to change the status quo in any real way that improves the real human condition.

I am not preaching intolerance or war, or calling for intolerance or war.

I am PROMOTING different perspectives and ways.

That some people entrenched in to what is to them a validating and absolution offering status quo might see that as an attack on them that causes them to become defensive and circle the wagons is par for the course.

Ultimately it's about encouraging and provoking people towards thought.

That becomes much harder to do when people are entrenched in ideals and philosophies that provide them a comforting illusion and they are reluctant to think outside of that box they find that solace and companionship and validation and absolution with.

You are only as responsible for the actions of a group to the extent that you support and wish to defend or promote that group and take part in them.

Ultimately as long as you see your shared identity bound to that group then you are enslaved to that.

Being more concerned about the defense of a group, than promoting your own individual rights and desire for peace and prosperity?

Well...

I don't think that works out for anyone because the reality is nothing has changed since Ur.

I share what I share as we all do, I share it for a reason as we all do, some will see a value in it, and some won't, some will see a hope in it and some won't, some will even see it as an attack on them personally when in reality it is a challenge to those in groups and herds to start thinking and acting in more effective ways than they presently are or allowed to or encouraged to by their group, and yes amazingly some people will see that as an attack on them personally.

I am an American and when someone from Afghanistan tells me I live in a violent country that indiscriminately bombs innocent women and children I don't get defensive about it, because I am not doing the bombing and I am not paying for the bombing, and I speak out against it myself.

Most people have a herd mentality, say something about my herd I don't like well I am not going to question why, I am just going to say something about you or your herd to deflect away from the issue you brought up.

I am going to entrench myself and validate myself and absolve myself and I will do it at your expense if need so.

It's all part of the one thousand, one, two, or three failed excuses people use that make the world such a loving place!



[edit on 10/12/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
There is a thing called patience, and then there is a thing called stuck on stupid.

I see. We're devolving into nominally insulting. 'K.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
These advancements you perceive are simply only advancements in productivity and efficiency whether it’s in the mining operations or how efficiently we kill and dispatch one another.

Eliminating slavery was about efficiency? Suffragettes were about efficiency?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The human condition remains entirely unchanged since the days of Ur.

Methinks you dissemble.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It is a patently absurd deception that lulls many people into confusing the advent of science and technology that only better allows the Stake Holders to profit and horde more and in many ways dole out less as a result.

Actually, that's more of a more recent anti-society backsliding emblematic of the last half-century that's also accelerated in the last 3 decades as symbolised by the "Greed is good" ethos given voice in "Wall Street".

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
So too is the notion of advancement in human rights. While it’s true that some limited freedoms have been offered to segments of the human populace previously denied any often to achieve this parity other limited freedoms are taken away from the segments of the population that have been granted more.

This is more than a little bit disingenuous on your part. Freedom is without price. The cost of applying it to a wider populace than previously enjoyed it is far outstripped by the value it adds. And wider-spread freedom doesn't extract a reduction in freedoms from its previous beneficiaries. Freedom isn't quantifiable in that sense.

I'll skip past the rest of your reiteration of the same incorrect point.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
This notion of we being preferable to the notion of we you speak of is simply the notion of shared identities like the Masons.

In this post, I spoke of moving "away from the "me" and towards the "we"". By this, I would've thought it fairly clear that I was referring to moving away from the selfish mindset towards a selfless one. Masonry is but one arrow in the quiver of attaining that. No particular group has an exclusive on the best way to accomplish what's best for society and those that do so claim are ones that are best looked askance at.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Where it becomes enslaving is FitzGibbon’s the natural human being is not considering my arguments or debates as a natural human being he is considering them as how they specifically pertain to his identity as and allegiance to Masonry.

Not at all. I assume you have no experience with children under 4 years of age. Such children (especially boys) are (usually) predisposed to acting in their interests alone to the exclusion of interests that affect a greater group or even another individual. They need to unlearn such behaviours for the greater good of society.

I'm framing your arguments within my experience as a Mason. If I were Catholic, I could just as easily be framing them within the experience of Knights of Columbus. You can insert your chosen societal structure here and the outcome would be virtually the same if not identical. I don't recall claiming that Masonry has a patent on how to do good work for mankind.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Of course you joined this group for the reason everyone joins a group, the notion that it is superior in its philosophy and that by partaking in it that you have some kind of leg up or edge through partnership with that consortium.

No such mercenary motives. I joined it (as do most) as a social outlet as well as to leverage my own personal desire to do good within my community. You're welcome to suggest otherwise and the casual reader'll have to make up his or her mind as to who's closer to the truth. But you do a disservice to all people of good intent who join a group by approaching their motives with the jaundiced purview of a skeptic.

Not everyone is as mercenary as you'd like to believe.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
For all those 90 degree angles and allegories and gradients and quotients that please you and offer some imagined degree of enlightenment and progress and superior way the plain truth remains nothing as far as the human condition has changed since Ur.

You're repeating yourself. Repetition does not create truth.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Why because there are a thousand and one, and two, and three reasons provided including the tenets of Masonry to lull people into this absurd notion that evolution has to by nature be a slow process.

Evolution isn't necessarily a slow process. It can be quite quick. It's human nature that I cited as being resistant to change.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
What perpetuates this system of death, violence, greed, indifference and cruelty is in fact the individual’s propensity to decry those with different perspectives as being deranged or foolish, impatient and absurd.

Fear of the other is at the root of almost all of the world's social shortcomings. Some of the societal constructs have (to their discredit) made encouraging such fear part of the justification for their existence. We are again slipping into a time of fear of the other in the form of Islam, French, socialist, etc. Sometimes, it takes great effort to cut through and across these man-made walls to recognise elements of ourselves and even great similarities with others.

Accomplish this sort of Atlantean ideal and much can be accomplished for the good of mankind.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Ultimately by your own admission you feel an overwhelming desire to defend something that in reality despite the illusions has not accomplished one notable thing except more war, death, violence, greed, indifference and cruelty.

Remember what I said about impatience? It still applies. You not knowing what Masonry (or any other like group) has accomplished doesn't mean that nothing's been accomplished; just that you aren't aware.

Horse of a different colour.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
To that end the Masonic concept of math as it applies to life is valid but only to the extent that they willfully help if even unwittingly to effect these divisions and eventual consolidations through a violent form of arithmetic.

Clearly you aren't talking about Regular Masonry as the Masonry I'm familiar with delves deeper than the shallow paddling you seem to be referring to.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Are you able to think in simply human terms or are you actually unbeknownst to you tied to Masonic dogma, lore and myth?

Actually, I believe I'm demonstrating a greater degree of human understanding than you are insomuch as your impatience seems to drive you to rash statements and an unrealistic notion of what's achievable and maintainable as concerns human societal constructs. Again, the same points I'm making as pertains to Masonry can equally be made (and as justifiably) by a member of the KofC, Oddfellows, etc.

My position has nothing specific to "Masonic dogma, lore and myth" as you would so dismissively portray it.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Is the we that you imagine really healthier and wiser than the me you would chide and encourage so many to neglect for the good of the we?

In absolute terms? No. On balance yes. Balance is the operative word.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
That’s the question FitzGibbons and in reality if you haven’t read and researched all the Treaties which are the real defining moments of history then you are basically accepting camp fire stories as your reality.

I suspect I have a better grasp of history than you suspect. However, this isn't the forum for that.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Attempting to ridicule others for taking the time, well? One could only wonder why that is, or what would cause someone who hasn’t done an in depth and open minded objective study to say “here we go again”.

That came up simply because it was clear the well-wearied path your argument was about to take and while an open mind will listen the first time, successive presentations of the same assertion aren't going to be received with as much good grace.

This is not emblematic of being closed-minded on balance.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
If you have not met the creator of the universe it’s probably a bad idea to assume what that creator wants.

I'm sure were He to want me to be self-centred, the selfless model would have devolved away millennia ago. I'll take my chances trying to leave the world a better place than when I entered it.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Free Masonry for most is just another bottled elixir to that end.

I'm sorry you think that way. Tell me. Do you have your own elixir you think'll do what the existing elixirs don't? And why's yours more effective? I on the other hand prefer to believe that on measure humanity is capable of great things, great things that take time to come to fruition. You seem to want it now from the existing groups or Devil take the hindmost.

Such childish impatience goes to the very heart of what you profess to want to overcome.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
So it this one we should all be living for FitzGibbons then?

Hardly! Not that the attention wouldn't be nice. Just ill-placed.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I hear a whole lot of we and temperance and patience but no offence it keeps coming out and being centered on the me, me, me, me.

Then clearly the seed's being cast on hard ground and not taking root. I'm sorry for you that way.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am not attacking anyone. I am sharing and challenging people and asking them to revisit and take a harder look at the status quo.

You presume that that isn't being done by people on a regular basis. Unfortunately for your argument, it is. It may not be done on an Internet board for your perusal. But done it is.

You just don't seem to be getting the agitation you seem to crave.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am telling people they need not be enslaved to failed ideas, notions, or organizations

Failed only insofar as you define them. Not that the majority shares your judgement or that said judgement would be correct even if the majority DID believe it.

That's called ego. Über-selfish.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am not preaching intolerance or war, or calling for intolerance or war.

I am PROMOTING different perspectives and ways.

You haven't proposed anything other than throwing the baby out with the bathwater. This doesn't amount to a different perspective.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Ultimately as long as you see your shared identity bound to that group then you are enslaved to that.

Being more concerned about the defense of a group, than promoting your own individual rights and desire for peace and prosperity?

Well...

And you're the arbiter of who's behaving as if they're "bound" to a group? You'll pardon me if I find your judgement a bit suspect.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I share what I share as we all do, I share it for a reason as we all do, some will see a value in it, and some won't, some will see a hope in it and some won't, some will even see it as an attack on them personally when in reality it is a challenge to those in groups and herds to start thinking and acting in more effective ways than they presently are or allowed to or encouraged to by their group, and yes amazingly some people will see that as an attack on them personally.

And again, YOU deem yourself the arbiter of value, thrusting your ego into the equation. The truly selfless would (if he actually believed in the idea as opposed to chaining that idea to his id) put the idea out to be taken up or rejected as society decides its worthiness.

I don't really know anyone obsessed with the Mason's...well, my mom used to love Perry Mason, but I wouldn't say she was obsessed with him. Me? I liked the show, loved the theme song but obsessed with him? No way! Besides, Perry Mason ain't got nothing on Denny Crane! Now there's a lawyer...and a true American. Jackie Mason? Please. What's so amusing about Jackie Mason? I'm just saying, that's all. There's Bobbie Ann Mason who wrote In Country and that's a pretty good book, but obsessed with her? I don't think so? What makes you think so many people are obsessed with the Masons? I mean, besides the numerous posts in this thread that seem to be endlessly yammering on about Morgans and What's his name and Whatchamacallim. What's so interesting about that? I mean really, illuminate me, or illuminotme! I know Claudia Mason was pretty hot in that America's Top Model show. I guess, if she gave me the time of day I could be a little obsessed with her, but that's a Mason of a different color.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Besides, Perry Mason ain't got nothing on Denny Crane! Now there's a lawyer...and a true American.

Sorry to burst yer bubble, JP. Dennie Crane was a beat cop.

HTH
Fitz

/derail

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I think you misunderstood my post. I am personally looking for a leader. Someone who will be able to assemble like minded people and enact change for the betterment of mankind. For a moment you sounded like you had some real ideas on it, then it just turned into a blame the other guy thing. We all have 1000 excuses for why we aren't living for someone else. There is only one way to prove you are living for others. live it.

[edit on 10-12-2009 by network dude]

I think the outragouse acusations about the Masons are comical. Some even say that they are satanic. There is a form of processing that one must go through to join, where a group of master masons judge you based on your ethical views?

Originally posted by plutoxgirl
Why are there so many people obssesed with Masons?-
and their "secrets"-?

I used to know a guy who was all excited because he found out what "book" the Masons use frequently and regard as 'very important'- so he was acting all mysterious with me because no one out of 'the fraternity' should know about it. But he did-

I mean, I sort of- understand the fact that -everything- that is not of "public knowledge", will instigate curiosity and all kinds of theories-

But why the obsession and outrageous accusations??

It's like the Illuminati hoax- cut the cr@p!-
LOL

There are souls with good intentions and others with not so good ones, EVERYWHERE- there are rules to follow and secrets to keep in all kinds of groups- and environments.
Simple.

Plus is not wise at all- to judge and put every Mason in the same bag (you know, there are great men while there may be others who are just sad examples of human beings).

Like in every place.

So I think some people should cut the obsession with the Masons's secrets and stuff, and focus on their life and what they are doing with it.

i find humor in reading and hearing about all the evil things that people have to say about me and all my brothers. thats why i'm here. i find it entertaining