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posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by harvib
 


Yes, you may say that, but what of the constantly monitored skies above your head? What about the Coast Guard? What about the troops we have in Somalia, Rwanda and Fiji who are doing humanitarian work. THOSE ARE THE SAME TROOPS WHO ARE IN A-GAN, they just picked a different straw.




posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by EMPIRE
Logic and reason are on my side but allude you. Moreover, multiple times I said there are other “sources”, so why are you restricting these sources to the net and foolishly suggesting one visit the mid east in order to gather info? LOL!


Depends on how long that visit is, doesn't it, Ace? I don't recall any time limits in my suggestions.

Eh, but going there is too much effort for you, huh? Why bother; it's way easier (and more comfortable) to just read whatever is posted online.


Originally posted by EMPIRE
If he was killing people, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest many of the charges were false, you have to look at who enabled him to do it.


Still working that, "Saddam wasn't responsible for his actions" angle? That's funny. You just keep rockin' with that idea.


Originally posted by EMPIRE
So we never were directly or indirectly involved?


Again, giving Saddam a "pass", huh? "Well, others were behind it all, he wasn't really killing people for yucks."


Originally posted by EMPIRE
Absolutely. Insurgents haven’t amassed a civilian death toll that some claim reaches the millions.


Really? US troops have killed millions in Iraq? Sorry, gonna have to raise the BS flag on that one.


Originally posted by EMPIRE
More fallacies. But let us entertain your thought and say I did get it from the net, how does it make it less credible? If being on the net makes it less credible, that would mean your insanity laden suggestions that one visit the mid east are less credible because they’re on the net and you typed it. However, we know the real truth as to why your suggestions don’t make sense, so you’ve backed yourself into a corner with this one, thanks.


Because if it's online, it MUST be true, huh?

"Insanity laden suggestions"? So, I guess actually going to a country and seeing what's actually happening is wrong? Now that's a good one.




Originally posted by EMPIRE
Old school or new school stuff?


Old School. I think it was much more classier before the productions got so slick and fake.


Originally posted by EMPIRE
And American troops have dropped bombs on entire cities, raped women, killed children, kidnapped and murdered the innocent, etc.


Right. Yeah, this happens on a daily basis. Get a grip.
Let me guess, like Saddam, the insurgents get a "pass". "It's all the fault of the US!!!!"



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:17 PM
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All you Americans who bitch and berate soldiers can just leave your car parked tomorrow morning and walk to work.

Otherwise, the soldier is carrying you and your car on his back.

We want our homes heated or cooled, refrigerators, freezers, hot bath/shower water, heaters and air conditioners in our vehicles, computers, televisions...

If you really want to be and act with moral integrity, then start doing without these things or keep your big mouths shut. Even about the rich people who started the war.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by SantaClaus
 





Yes, you may say that, but what of the constantly monitored skies above your head? What about the Coast Guard?


What about them? I'm sure the mob has legitimately offered some individuals protection. However it doesn't justify their actions against their communities best interest.



What about the troops we have in Somalia, Rwanda and Fiji who are doing humanitarian work. THOSE ARE THE SAME TROOPS WHO ARE IN A-GAN, they just picked a different straw.


I am not demonizing the troops. I do not agree, however, that the way the troops are being used is in our best interest. Our Country is in dire straits and I take issue with individuals that defend a means to further bankrupt this nation.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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I think this is a very touchy-feely issue. I for one do not support the troops being in Iraq, but I do support the troops them selves.

If you want my real opinion, 9/11 was used as a false flag operation used as an excuse to go into Iraq.

This also caused some confusion in the 1960's and 1970's durring the Vietnam war. Of course everyone knows that in some cases when the soldiers came home, they were often disrespected. Some soldiers don't support the war, but they choose to support their country.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by EMPIRE
 


Well if I have been indoctrinated, then it has happened within the private sector, as I have yet to complete any training or courses in the military. I can see where you could think I am still a puppet though. I mean, with all the false flag propaganda and a misplaced sense of pride for one's country, many people do simply comply with the status quo.

It is my humble opinion that there is a greater good that will eventually be realized. And there is no america unless our military stays strong.. That might be a sad thing, but its just bottom line fact.

My marine friend sat with a 30 year old man in Iraq today. He was from Somalia. At 11 years of age he was kidnapped and placed in a guerilla militia. At 15 he found a way out and liberated almost all of his peers. He made it to an american military base and they came back to the camp to free the rest of the children. That's a hell of a story my friend, and those meat puppets (as you call them) saved the lives of hundreds that day. Not only children, but also the people that those children would have eventually been made to kill.

My army ranger friend is on his 3rd deployment, which I think is a travesty. However, he has the privilege of getting to see his favorite little man, a 7 year old iraqi boy he befriended. He takes pictures with him, has toys shipped to his family, and all around gives the boy a sense that we as a people are good.

My navy friend.. Well he sits in a submarine for months at a time monitoring seas for boat bombers and many other things in protecting the boarder of africa.


If I am brainwashed, then you are delusional. You live in a fantasy world. At least I can see positivity when it happens. We simply cannot function as a society without our military.

Also, if you were in charge what would you do with all our troops? Something world-altering I would hope. I truly want to know what your plan would be with hundreds of other countries looking at you for assistance, where pressure to befriend other nations is more than bureaucratic. It is a never ending complex system of nations we are a part of.

So the ball is in your court. What is your solution?

If you say turn back the clock 2000 years and live simply, then I am all for it.. Oh yeah, there were very unfortunate wars back then too. Darn.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by SantaClaus
 





I truly want to know what your plan would be with hundreds of other countries looking at you for assistance


When are we going to realize that we are no longer in position to mascaraed as the nobility of the world? We don't have the means to support our own citizens let alone other nations.

This illusion of the United States being a wealthy nation is counter productive. It is like the individual whose house is being foreclosed on attempting to keep up the charade of wealth by his fancy dinners and cars. The jig is up! We're broke!

You want a solution? How's this. We worry about are own families. When our families are fed, clothed, sheltered, happy, and healthy; then let's talk about philanthropic endevours.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by harvib
 


I agree 100%. I say we just say "tough luck, fend for yourselves." I agree with your logic.

But its been too long and from a military standpoint we are the superpower. Some people call that responsibility. I am on the fence there. I am not sure where morality comes in when it comes to places like Iraq and North Korea. Dictators yes, but how many people do they kill before we find it necessary to defend the disenfranchised people of earth?

You make solid points.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 



Depends on how long that visit is, doesn't it, Ace? I don't recall any time limits in my suggestions.


No, sport, it does not depend on how long the visit is because visiting is not a prerequisite to identifying the problem. Do you know what prerequisite means?

www.merriam-webster.com...
dictionary.reference.com...
www.thefreedictionary.com...


Eh, but going there is too much effort for you, huh? Why bother; it's way easier (and more comfortable) to just read whatever is posted online.


See above.


Still working that, "Saddam wasn't responsible for his actions" angle? That's funny. You just keep rockin' with that idea.


If you’re going to accuse the guy, it makes sense to see who his accomplices or enablers were. You may want to sweep that under the rug, but hey if you’re going to label a guy why not bring it all to light?


Again, giving Saddam a "pass", huh? "Well, others were behind it all, he wasn't really killing people for yucks."


No, it has nothing to do with giving him a “pass” and everything to do with eliminating bias, something you’ve shown to have.


Originally posted by EMPIRE
Absolutely. Insurgents haven’t amassed a civilian death toll that some claim reaches the millions.



Really? US troops have killed millions in Iraq? Sorry, gonna have to raise the BS flag on that one.


You’re behaving as someone who is a semi-functional illiterate. Did I, EMPIRE, say US troops have killed millions? NO. What I said was insurgents have not amassed a civilian death toll that some claim reaches the millions. R-E-A-D the bold part before you respond, some claim the death toll is that high, do you see the difference?


Because if it's online, it MUST be true, huh?


More fallacies, as I’ve never held that belief. In fact, if you clicked on my name and saw the only thread I’ve made so far, you’ll see I’m constantly asking for people to stop lying.


"Insanity laden suggestions"? So, I guess actually going to a country and seeing what's actually happening is wrong? Now that's a good one.


Again, it is not a prerequisite to understand the problem, but you’re attempting to make it seem as if it is. This is why your suggestions are burdened with insanity.


Old School. I think it was much more classier before the productions got so slick and fake.


Classier? WTH? At least the lighting is superior now, and it isn’t the same old 8mm loop.


Right. Yeah, this happens on a daily basis. Get a grip.
Let me guess, like Saddam, the insurgents get a "pass". "It's all the fault of the US!!!!"


Yes, it happens on a daily basis, as it has been happening since we infiltrated their sovereign country under the guise of liberating the people from a man who had WMD.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 09:10 PM
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reply to post by SantaClaus
 



Well if I have been indoctrinated, then it has happened within the private sector, as I have yet to complete any training or courses in the military.


The fact you’ve been hypnotized before you even completed an hour of training is even worse. You had faulty agents of socialization and they’ve basically made you a lamb fit for slaughter.


I can see where you could think I am still a puppet though. I mean, with all the false flag propaganda and a misplaced sense of pride for one's country, many people do simply comply with the status quo.


I’m basing it off your words!


It is my humble opinion that there is a greater good that will eventually be realized. And there is no america unless our military stays strong.. That might be a sad thing, but its just bottom line fact.


There is no greater good, friend.


My marine friend sat with a 30 year old man in Iraq today. He was from Somalia. At 11 years of age he was kidnapped and placed in a guerilla militia. At 15 he found a way out and liberated almost all of his peers. He made it to an american military base and they came back to the camp to free the rest of the children. That's a hell of a story my friend, and those meat puppets (as you call them) saved the lives of hundreds that day. Not only children, but also the people that those children would have eventually been made to kill.


That’s a very courageous story, it almost brought me to tears...
When did I call anyone a meat puppet? Moreover, what about the lives they’re taking on a daily basis?


My army ranger friend is on his 3rd deployment, which I think is a travesty. However, he has the privilege of getting to see his favorite little man, a 7 year old iraqi boy he befriended. He takes pictures with him, has toys shipped to his family, and all around gives the boy a sense that we as a people are good.


And on the other hand you have mothers and daughters who’ve been raped. You have children being born with missing limbs, extra limbs, swollen heads, blind, etc. Yeah, everything is peaches and cream, and everyone in Iraq are our friends...


My navy friend.. Well he sits in a submarine for months at a time monitoring seas for boat bombers and many other things in protecting the boarder of africa.


Protecting the borders of Africa...wow!



If I am brainwashed, then you are delusional. You live in a fantasy world. At least I can see positivity when it happens. We simply cannot function as a society without our military.


No, you’re the one who is brainwashed, delusional and hypocritical. I don’t live in a fantasy world, I’m fully awake here. You’re the one with delusions of grandeur and think everything is going to be great, it isn’t. The reason why we can’t function as a society without our military is: 1.)We need to take from other places. 2.)We have a need to spread our imperialism and ideologies of manifest destiny and 3.) As a direct result of our illogical foreign policy, we’ve made many enemies.


Also, if you were in charge what would you do with all our troops?


I’d bring them home and train them in the areas of S.T.E.M so we could dominate the global market without the need of weapons, racism, hatred, war, murder and rape. I’d then extend my hand to other countries, and make them competitive and self-sufficient, without raping them with things such as IMF and WCB.


Something world-altering I would hope. I truly want to know what your plan would be with hundreds of other countries looking at you for assistance, where pressure to befriend other nations is more than bureaucratic. It is a never ending complex system of nations we are a part of.


See above, genius.


So the ball is in your court. What is your solution If you say turn back the clock 2000 years and live simply, then I am all for it.. Oh yeah, there were very unfortunate wars back then too. Darn.
?


See above.

In closing, this is what you're contributing to:

www.todayszaman.com...

[edit on 10-12-2009 by EMPIRE]



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 09:25 PM
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reply to post by EMPIRE
 


I suppose there will be no understanding then. You obviously have a real problem with the entire structure, to the point where all the good is so blatantly shadowed by the bad. I just don't see it that way.

Hypocrisy is a funny word when it comes to policy. I'm a libertarian who is for socialized health care too, but that's simply because I believe it will help our country as it is today, but this country is most obviously not libertarian.

I guess I'm okay with being called a hypocrite then. Ideals and beliefs are important. However, sometimes reality hands you situations where the lines are blurred. I hope someday you understand that you must weather the storm before enacting the ideal.


ETA: The material the weapons are made of are making kids sick? WHAT? Listen, a little kid getting accidentally shot is a tragedy. As are the kids who can't get medicine. But is that the fault of the troops??? For taking out a dictator????

You logic is incredible. I can't even begin to try to sort through that mess and come out with that kind of opinion. You win, I'm done. There will be no progress here.

[edit on 12/10/09 by SantaClaus]



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 02:28 AM
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OP...great post and a nice poetic reminder of the hardships endured by our people who serve. My thanks go out to all of our military for the sacrifices they've made.

This thread was started as a thank you for the ones who serve and was turned into a hate filled mess by a few disrespectful posters. Sure we all have the right to our opinions, but such disrespect to the OP is completely unwarranted. You have trashed his thread because you don't like the war and the way our government is doing things. You should have started your own thread, it would have been the proper thing to do.

Also...there is no such thing as not voting. A vote not cast against anyone is a vote for the winner. Those who refuse to cast a real vote are a huge part of the problem. And complaining about the government after such a refusal, geesh, why waste a caring citizens time.

Once again, my thanks to our boys and girls in uniform. God be with you all.
May you all return home soon, you are much missed.

After reading every page of this mess, I am out of here...adios.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 03:45 AM
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Guys, stop pushing all this nonsense about dying for the country and flag, etc. Noone is dying for the country, people are dying for their paychecks and social guarantees. You strip them away from these privileges and their talk about love for the country evaporates faster than a bailout money. if Us army soldiers were dying for the country they would simply napalm # out of poppy seed fields in Afghanistan stopping the invasion of deadly drugs in their motherland. Usually people who are not the brightest kids in job makrket end up in the Army, sorry to be so harsh, but Army ain`t MIT. And don`t mix up Lockheed-Martin and Stealth bombers and all this crazy tech with military achievements. All the gizmos are simply built for the Military, not by them,. And I understand that it would be hard to return all the troops home, because there would be nothing to do for them with their skill level. Most of them simply mix up discipline and hardship with productive work,. In our society we need people who actually build things, construct invent and improve, thus increasing the added value to the economy. We don`t need Abrams ploughing sands of Basra, we need Caterpillars ploughing pastures of Wyoming and Alabama. Of course there are high class specialists in the Army, but the background `added value skill level` is....depressing.
Wake up America, grow up, it is time to stop playing football and walking around other countries with kick -ass gizmos built buy guys you derisively called nerds while at schools. Stop giving incentives to non-productive jobs, start building things. I bet that Johny with M16 was more useful at home being taught how to engineer bridges and bolt Cherokees together with less gaps between parts, than yelling empty patritism in Iraq while silently counting days to next promotion and paycheck fattening on expense of diminishing crowd of hard sweating Americans at home .....



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by Advancedboy
Guys, stop pushing all this nonsense about dying for the country and flag, etc. Noone is dying for the country, people are dying for their paychecks and social guarantees. You strip them away from these privileges and their talk about love for the country evaporates faster than a bailout money. if Us army soldiers were dying for the country they would simply napalm # out of poppy seed fields in Afghanistan stopping the invasion of deadly drugs in their motherland. Usually people who are not the brightest kids in job makrket end up in the Army, sorry to be so harsh, but Army ain`t MIT. And don`t mix up Lockheed-Martin and Stealth bombers and all this crazy tech with military achievements. All the gizmos are simply built for the Military, not by them,. And I understand that it would be hard to return all the troops home, because there would be nothing to do for them with their skill level. Most of them simply mix up discipline and hardship with productive work,. In our society we need people who actually build things, construct invent and improve, thus increasing the added value to the economy. We don`t need Abrams ploughing sands of Basra, we need Caterpillars ploughing pastures of Wyoming and Alabama. Of course there are high class specialists in the Army, but the background `added value skill level` is....depressing.
Wake up America, grow up, it is time to stop playing football and walking around other countries with kick -ass gizmos built buy guys you derisively called nerds while at schools. Stop giving incentives to non-productive jobs, start building things. I bet that Johny with M16 was more useful at home being taught how to engineer bridges and bolt Cherokees together with less gaps between parts, than yelling empty patritism in Iraq while silently counting days to next promotion and paycheck fattening on expense of diminishing crowd of hard sweating Americans at home .....


you could not be farther from the truth.

E-1 through E-4 pay is below poverty level. Most soldiers and sailors that i know and work with live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to pay bills. There has been an epidemic of military personnel falling prey to payday lenders and scammers because they have difficulty making ends meet.

A great deal of MOSs and Rates would make quite a bit more money working in the civilian sector in the same job.

IT specialists, nurses, aviation mechanics, software systems analysts, airtraffic controllers. These jobs can all make much more money in a civilian job.

This is a prime example of someone who obviously has no clue about the military spouting off about the reason why we serve, and you will never really understand the brotherhood and commradere that is known by a military member.

We are proud to serve, proud to tow the extra line, and we are tested daily.

I certainly have those times when i dont want to be here. I stand 12 hour watches, and sometimes it simply dfoesnt seem worth it to work 50-60 hours a week, making 700 bucks a week, when i could easily go to the NWS and get a job making 70-80k a year and only working 40 hours a week.

this goes for everyone out there.

i suggest that before you decide to talk about what it is like to be in the military, and why people are in the service, you either join yourself and understand, or spend some time with service members (and not the dirtbags) and really find out what it is all about.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 08:46 AM
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I am already in the military, so I know the situation. 700 bucks a week is nowhere near a poverty line. Remember most of people working in service sector don`t make even that much. Besides US economy is mostly service driven, so no wonder of mediocre paychecks. And if in civilian work yoy can get more, I don`t see a reason that could stop you. Ugh, you can`t retire at 50, and, you have to pay your own transportation, medicare, etc....... Why don`t you ask yourself a simple question- are your skills good enough to compete in civilian field? Strangley enough the size of army should be comparable to the size of economy. I also spent 4 months at Lackland AFB and can visually imagine how much resources are taken to run a base of such size. Imagine if the money actually went into San Antonio for opening new factories, advancing education, art and science. But the game will soon be over, Chinese will simply drastically reduce bying up your debt to run useless wargames abroad. The more primitive a society becomes, the more they have to resort to war. Just read how the Roman empire fell apart. look at your Detroit, your military spending is the biggest in history, yet Detroit is rotting in pieces, the Detroit that was once a cradle of car industry. You people are wasting your country away, you are wasting away the last morsels of capital your fathers sweated in Zenith, Milacron, Euclid, polaroid and other companies. What has Us security to do with Iraq? Pakistan , Afghanistan? Who exactly of Afghan mothers, or who exactly of those now mutilated young Afghani boys did harm your proud America? How many iraqi terrorists have damaged something in your country?



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by VDOG.45

The other 10% is that part of me that wants to kill people like you. I hold it in check 90% of the time.

you’re a sorry piece of human garbage that gets off bashing people that are better then you.


Wow..


Can you say 'anger management?'...



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by SantaClaus
I left ATS for a very long time because of stupid, ignorant people. I came back from BTS and what do I get on the 3rd thread I click? This mass of garbage.

For those of you who are so for "peace," you sure do put out a large amount of negativity. Calling people brainwashed, as if they are below you.

Let me ask you this, RF.. What have you done lately other than sit on your computer and twiddle your fingers over a keyboard to communicate nothing but anger and hate?

Yeah you sure are being a good "earthling" by chastising just about every other good one out there. Seems to me your definition of "peace" would be to have this big blue ball all to yourself where you could get along with the bunnies and the butterflies.

Hell, I could half-respect you if you even said you have respect or any type of love for your fellow americans. At least then you would seem human.

The war is wrong. Its shamefully wrong. And my generation is dying in the desert for NOTHING. But they are the greatest people I have ever known and I am proud to be joining them next year. My best friend is a marine and probably more intelligent than 99% of the population. He has yet to discharge his firearm at anything other than a practice target in his 6 months in Iraq.

Keep spreading negativity. Its just as poisonous to the world as bullets and bombs, my friend. You are a very angry person.

You can knock the head off the beast, but then the domino affect happens, and you happen to be the last domino in the line. Don't like it? Go live in the mountains.


I'm assuming this post was meant for me since you just added me to your 'foe' list....I'm flattered btw..


But, no need for me to waste time repeating what has already been said.......just read EMPIRE's posts below yours...

Well said EMPIRE..



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by EMPIRE
No, sport, it does not depend on how long the visit is because visiting is not a prerequisite to identifying the problem. Do you know what prerequisite means?


Ok, you got me. Going to a country and actually seeing what's going on there isn't needed.
. Heaven forbid that you meet face to face with the people.


Originally posted by EMPIRE
If you’re going to accuse the guy, it makes sense to see who his accomplices or enablers were. You may want to sweep that under the rug, but hey if you’re going to label a guy why not bring it all to light?


I don't know, Gus. I have this belief in something called, "Free will". Both Saddam and his ass-hat sons were tyrants. Just deal with it.


Originally posted by EMPIRE
You’re behaving as someone who is a semi-functional illiterate. Did I, EMPIRE, say US troops have killed millions? NO. What I said was insurgents have not amassed a civilian death toll that some claim reaches the millions. R-E-A-D the bold part before you respond, some claim the death toll is that high, do you see the difference?


My bad. I read your post the wrong way.

Actually, I don't many people claim that the insurgents have killed millions, but a lot think that the US sure has.


Originally posted by EMPIRE
Again, it is not a prerequisite to understand the problem, but you’re attempting to make it seem as if it is. This is why your suggestions are burdened with insanity.


Why, because you think it's crazy to actually go to a country and see what's going on? I do know it requires effort....


Originally posted by EMPIRE
Classier? WTH? At least the lighting is superior now, and it isn’t the same old 8mm loop.


You're right. I will have to agree the lighting is way better nowdays.


Originally posted by EMPIRE
Yes, it happens on a daily basis, as it has been happening since we infiltrated their sovereign country under the guise of liberating the people from a man who had WMD.


BS. Insurgents are in the business of killing civilians, and did just this week.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by yak055h
reply to post by rainfall
 


Sorry Rain but your view is troubling. I would respect your views if you had served but your indictment is too broad.

This hit my hot button.


Glad I could hit your button..
..that's what I'm here for...to make you military guys see past your blinders...

In case you haven't noticed, war is a rich mans business....

There hasn't been a 'real' need for war since at least the 1940's..so for all you guys that think it's patriotic to 'support' your country...you are being duped...wars are just ways of 'strong arming' weaker countries so all their natural resources can be stolen and then sold back to them...

Don't you think we have outgrown the need for this senseless 'bloodbath for profit' mentality...

If all the money that was spent on wars over the last 70 years, had instead been spent on prosperity programs, we might all be living in paradise right now...

Until you guys wake up and STOP being the pawns for the Master, we will never get out of this 'catch 22'.....

It's time to grow up...it's time to evolve..

www.youtube.com...

PEACE and LOVE...



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 03:37 PM
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I see lots of opinions, lots of passionate debate. I see people that believe I shouldn't have a job. People that say I should quit this life I love. I read these comments from all of you and think; Why don't these people run for public office and stop this then?

Your hatred for your government is blinding you just like you think my indoctrination has blinded me.

Go forth. Be somebody. Do something.

Deeds above words.





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