before ya'll bash our soldiers

Originally posted by harvib
I'll ask again. Do you believe serving one's Government is the same as serving one's Country?

My two rapidly deflating cents: No, it's not.

Look at congressmen. They serve the government, but they sure aren't serving the country. In fact, it seems like they are more concerned with serving themselves.

I left ATS for a very long time because of stupid, ignorant people. I came back from BTS and what do I get on the 3rd thread I click? This mass of garbage.

For those of you who are so for "peace," you sure do put out a large amount of negativity. Calling people brainwashed, as if they are below you.

Let me ask you this, RF.. What have you done lately other than sit on your computer and twiddle your fingers over a keyboard to communicate nothing but anger and hate?

Yeah you sure are being a good "earthling" by chastising just about every other good one out there. Seems to me your definition of "peace" would be to have this big blue ball all to yourself where you could get along with the bunnies and the butterflies.

Hell, I could half-respect you if you even said you have respect or any type of love for your fellow americans. At least then you would seem human.

The war is wrong. Its shamefully wrong. And my generation is dying in the desert for NOTHING. But they are the greatest people I have ever known and I am proud to be joining them next year. My best friend is a marine and probably more intelligent than 99% of the population. He has yet to discharge his firearm at anything other than a practice target in his 6 months in Iraq.

Keep spreading negativity. Its just as poisonous to the world as bullets and bombs, my friend. You are a very angry person.

You can knock the head off the beast, but then the domino affect happens, and you happen to be the last domino in the line. Don't like it? Go live in the mountains.

reply to post by SantaClaus


I know your post was addressed to someone else, but reading it shows you're brainwashed. I mean seriously, let us examine this highly irrational tid bit for a couple of minutes:

The war is wrong. Its shamefully wrong. And my generation is dying in the desert for NOTHING. But they are the greatest people I have ever known and I am proud to be joining them next year

Friend, you admit to the war being wrong. In fact, you describe this war as "shamefully wrong" and further claim your generation is dying for nothing (you used caps to denote yelling or emphasis.) However, you then go on to say they are the greatest people you have ever known and you're proud to join them next year. In other words, you're proud to join a war that you yourself have described as painfully wrong, and you see no problem in possibly dying for nothing. Friend, you do not sound rational. You speak as another brainwashed soul, a self serving hypocrite, masquerading as a patriot or do-gooder--save it.





[edit on 9-12-2009 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by EMPIRE


For some reason I feel like people don't know what being in the military entails. They are not the orchestrators.

Do you not think that these soldiers of today are your anti-war protesters of the future? The soldiers right now are our biggest proponent for eventual peace. They know much more about the situation than either of us.

To find yourself in an inescapable contract is something you obviously know nothing about. It is a matter of honor that one would accept that part of their life will be as an instrument of their government.

It used to be a very honorable thing. Something to look up to. For some reason, just because the circumstance changed, so did the outlook.

And DO NOT pin some of the atrocities of the contract killers in Iraq and A-Gan on our troops. They had nothing to do with what blackwater and the CIA have done.

reply to post by SantaClaus

For some reason I feel like people don't know what being in the military entails. They are not the orchestrators.

They are not the orchestrators yet they comply and carry out the tasks of those who are the orchestrators. Therefore, they are also responsible. Friend, you’re willingly joining this war, and you’re doing it when you clearly have said it’s wrong. You’re GUILTY.

Do you not think that these soldiers of today are your anti-war protesters of the future?

No.

The soldiers right now are our biggest proponent for eventual peace.

ROFL! Sure.

They know much more about the situation than either of us.

So that would mean the previous claims you made about the war are incorrect?

To find yourself in an inescapable contract is something you obviously know nothing about.

I’m not foolish enough to place myself in an “inescapable contract”, so you’re 100% correct when you say it’s something I know nothing about.

It is a matter of honor that one would accept that part of their life will be as an instrument of their government.

With this very sentence you’ve provided the proof that solidifies my claim that you’re brainwashed. It is not a matter of honor, for if it were a matter of honor, you would see the war is DISHONOR. Moreover, you do not see the difference between country and government, and fail to realize you’re a pawn of the government.

It used to be a very honorable thing. Something to look up to. For some reason, just because the circumstance changed, so did the outlook.

See above.

And DO NOT pin some of the atrocities of the contract killers in Iraq and A-Gan on our troops. They had nothing to do with what blackwater and the CIA have done.

So you’re saying the soldiers are 100% innocent?

reply to post by EMPIRE


And so EVERY soldier in the history of the world must be horrible people right? Those who fought tyranny, those who liberated people from genocide, those who died for our independence.

Now, just because of bad timing, these people are evil scumbags? Give me a break. Some of them have been career military for 30 years, way before this war.

If by "brainwashed" you mean convinced that my friends in the service are intelligent, discerning, GOOD people, then yes I am brainwashed.

Here's a good song from a Marine who I think we can all agree with:

reply to post by SantaClaus

And so EVERY soldier in the history of the world must be horrible people right? Those who fought tyranny, those who liberated people from genocide, those who died for our independence.

The thing is, currently, our soldiers aren’t fighting tyranny, haven’t liberated anyone from genocide, and haven’t died for our independence.

Now, just because of bad timing, these people are evil scumbags?

Bad timing? This has nothing to do with bad timing and everything to do with being sheep.

Give me a break. Some of them have been career military for 30 years, way before this war.

And they’re part of the problem. Moreover, you haven’t been in the military for 30 years, so you can’t use the excuse of bad timing because you’re willingly joining a war that you said is wrong.

If by "brainwashed" you mean convinced that my friends in the service are intelligent, discerning, GOOD people, then yes I am brainwashed.

You’re a brainwashed hypocrite, and I’ve shown this. On one hand you say the war is wrong, yet you say you’ll soon be proud to serve. Furthermore, your intelligence is subject to further scrutiny due to you acknowledging people are dying for NOTHING (your words not mine) yet admitting you’re joining the war. Friend, you’ve given no logical or truthful reason as to why you’re joining this war. Everything you’ve stated, and stand for, can be summed into one word—lies.

Here's a good song from a Marine who I think we can all agree with:

He shouldn’t have joined. He should have known what the arrangement was before he joined. Now he’s sitting like an idiot and playing his acoustic, wishing he was back home wasting his life.


[edit on 9-12-2009 by EMPIRE]

Originally posted by EMPIRE
The thing is, currently, our soldiers aren’t fighting tyranny, haven’t liberated anyone from genocide, and haven’t died for our independence.

Really? Saddam wasn't a tyrant? He wasn't killing off any Kurds, huh?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
You’re a brainwashed hypocrite, and I’ve shown this. On one hand you say the war is wrong, yet you say you’ll soon be proud to serve. Furthermore, your intelligence is subject to further scrutiny due to you acknowledging people are dying for NOTHING (your words not mine) yet admitting you’re joining the war. Friend, you’ve given no logical or truthful reason as to why you’re joining this war. Everything you’ve stated, and stand for, can be summed into one word—lies.

I know guys and gals in the military that hate war, hate this war, but still serve. They feel that their being there can change things and maybe make things better for the next group coming along. Since they aren't bitch artists when it comes to deploying, I have no problems with their attitude.


[edit on 9-12-2009 by jerico65]

reply to post by EMPIRE

You’re a brainwashed hypocrite, and I’ve shown this. On one hand you say the war is wrong, yet you say you’ll soon be proud to serve.

You haven't shown anything.

I think the way the war is being fought is wrong too, but like Santa Claus I would help my fellow Americans as well.

Their well being is more important to me than your opinion of who or who isn't a hypocrite.

We fight because the people you elected (or your parents elected) failed you. The military cannot send itself to combat not even if we wanted to. Our leaders did it. We will remind them of the consequences for calling us. They forget so quickly you know. After Vietnam when songs where sang and people danced and said never again, they forgot our sacrifice. They have to keep learning the same lesson and every generation must be taught.

Now, it wasn't a complete waste of time. Saddam deserved to be hung in that outhouse in Baghdad. Did you guys know that Uday used to have erectile disfunction? And when the ladies couldn't help him out he'd beat them to death and hang them on hooks throughout his palace. He died in a shot up house along with his big brother. That one was on the house. When it's all over two countries will be better than before it began, no matter what the puppets say, it is inevitable.

We do get blamed for a lot of civilian deaths. This morning a series of bombs went off in Baghdad killing 127 and wounding 448. I guess somehow we will get blamed for that as well which is fine. But when was the last time someone on here has blamed a terrorist? It's pathetic.

It's always the same arguments, the same worthless expressions. Let me say my parting piece and I will leave you back to your meaningless squabbling. I don't do what I do so you can have your freedoms. The people that represent you are taking them from you without you getting up off the couch to "rebel" or whatever the hell you think your capable of. I do this because I love it.

Originally posted by TheEndofEvolution
We do get blamed for a lot of civilian deaths. This morning a series of bombs went off in Baghdad killing 127 and wounding 448. I guess somehow we will get blamed for that as well which is fine. But when was the last time someone on here has blamed a terrorist? It's pathetic.

Exactly. I'll beat them to the punch. "Those people wouldn't have been killed if it wasn't for the horrible, horrible US military being there in the first place!!" Anytime I bring up civilian deaths by insurgents, that's the comment I always get.

And it is pretty pathetic.

I'm certainly not joining a war. I am joining the ranks of other young people who show a great deal of courage in their decisions.

The war is a problem indeed, but you act like we should even have a military. If anything, I will do my best to protect the lives of others, not take them away.

reply to post by jerico65


Is that why they targeted civilians on purpose and not American military?

What will they say to that I wonder.

"..to disrupt the procedures of the upcoming election."

It's democracy they hate. Freedom, reason and equality are their enemies. They'd prefer throwing acid on school girls.

reply to post by rainfall


Sorry Rain but your view is troubling. I would respect your views if you had served but your indictment is too broad.

I am an Air Force veteran who served '66 to 70. I abhor the war and our political doctrines in Iraq and Afghanistan but to indict the military and it's importance as a whole does not make sense and seems to me simplistic.

I am not an educated man but would offer a challenge to start with our first conflict for freedom and erase the military from our history. Please include the "non-war years" by defending democracy with strength and give us your idea of what things would be like today. Starting from there offer your vision of our, or a, country from there. Include in that scenario whether you, personally, would be here today if you changed that history which includes the freedom to post your thoughts with ATS as a vehicle.

Please remember that our service men and women defend the Constitution as it is interpreted by the people that are elected and the Constitution will be defined through the Judicial, Legislative, Executive branches. They are your (the peoples) instrument as we are a Representative Republic.

Regarding the military knocking on my door; the constitution prohibits this from happening so if it does recur, a new army will be formed and a country will be formed again. Hopefully in a world where a military is no longer needed.

I am fairly new to posting on any site or in any format and have not read the posts beyond this one so if I have committed a protocol gaff please forgive. This hit my hot button.

Peace...............yak055h

reply to post by jerico65

Look at congressmen. They serve the government, but they sure aren't serving the country. In fact, it seems like they are more concerned with serving themselves.

Agreed. So those that hold the dissenting viewpoint on this topic seem to feel that the military is serving a Government who is acting against the best interest of it's citizens. Why are they being attacked so viciously for this?

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by wx4caster

 

what kind of an american are you? lets see...

1: you refuse to spend time in the service...
2: you refuse to pay income taxes...
3: you choose not to vote...

Wx,

I'll ask again. Do you believe serving one's Government is the same as serving one's Country?

serving ones country means serving your fellow country men. sure our government is not perfect, and in fact is down right wrong on a lot of things. but the government is supposed to be of the people by the people for the people.

it is ALL of our responsibilities to do what we can to return it thus. I do my part, every day, via voting, taxes, and servign my country.

reply to post by wx4caster

but the government is supposed to be of the people by the people for the people.

Supposed to be... What happens when it no longer is. Were the Nazi soldiers German patriots who were serving their Country? Maybe the dissenters in this thread have made some valid points? In fact the ongoing ridicule of these posters being called cowards and unwilling to serve their Country reminds me of a quote:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Maybe whoever said 'the game never changes, only the players' was right after all?




[edit on 10-12-2009 by harvib]

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by jerico65

 

Look at congressmen. They serve the government, but they sure aren't serving the country. In fact, it seems like they are more concerned with serving themselves.

Agreed. So those that hold the dissenting viewpoint on this topic seem to feel that the military is serving a Government who is acting against the best interest of it's citizens. Why are they being attacked so viciously for this?

there is not a single person i know serving right now who joined thinking

"i cant wait to get in there and do messed up things in the name of my messed up government!"

most people i know either joined because of the second gulf war, or because of 9/11.

you all know now that it was an inside job, after all the facts are out. but on september 14th 2001, we didnt have a clue, we thought we were under attack and by god for those of you who are typing all these insults, these young men and women went to the station and enlisted knowing only a few facts. and those facts were:

our country is under attack
our COUNTRYMEN need me
my life could be in danger
duty calls...

you can say that looking back you may have not joined for whatever reason, but when we thought the country was under ATTACK, why didnt you sign up? what excuse did you have then?

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by wx4caster

 

Supposed to be... What happens when it no longer is. Were the Nazi soldiers German patriots who were serving their Country? Maybe the dissenters in this thread have made some valid points? In fact the ongoing ridicule of these posters being called cowards and unwilling to serve their Country reminds me of a quote:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Maybe whoever said 'the game never changes, only the players' was right after all?




[edit on 10-12-2009 by harvib]

but nazi germany was intentionally taking over countries, invading them. they never once were liberating.

at what point has our government ever tried to produce a super race? there is a huge difference...

reply to post by wx4caster

there is not a single person i know serving right now who joined thinking "i cant wait to get in there and do messed up things in the name of my messed up government!"

I don't think anyone is accusing them of that. I certainly am not. I can appreciate the fact that many enlisted believing they were protecting their Country. However I find it shameful that when some of these posters have made comments against the wars they have been attacked. Do they not have a point? Are they not entitled to have a perspective?