Advanced knowledge in the ancient world

reply to post by Blane2012


...but the same science you agree with on human finds disagrees with you on the world repeating ever 20k years or so. Its easy to make that claim but it runs into an immediate problem - no evidence to support it

Originally posted by pritishxsinha

I can just advice take a book of Agsyta samhita and go through it .. It has been known the fact that this book is of Vedic age which was written by Maharishi Agastya, this knowledge must have spread to near by countries that's why a 2000 years old similar cell was also found in Baghdad, Iraq

These 'batteries' come from an age long long after the time period we are speaking of and many believe they were not batteries at all, they were not found in a condition that would have allowed them to work as batteries.

... and even Atharvaveda, ancient most book known to modern humans, too contains many facts about electricity as I personally read it and even if you don't believe it, than I have no idea,, what you need to believe.. Try once to write about phone in sanskrit.. first of all it needs ancient sanskrit, and many many other conditions,, it will also be approved by some organisation of our rishis if it is really authentic and ancient, they have known from generations which books are really ancient and preserved and written by whom.. it will be easily approved that the ancient phones written by you is modern one ....

Yeah so your evidence is that you believe it but cannot point to the where that bogus 'evidence' came from...well I could have told you that myself.

So that piece of 'evidence' you've been touting Indigo is busted

Well Hans, you're right that there isn't much evidence to prove it. However, most things degrade over time and rather quickly at that. After a major disaster, it would be hard to just pick back up where the previous civilization left off. I'm not arguing that every 20k years or so humanity starts over, but rather a much bigger window and information has to be passed down orally until there is a reliable way to keep and store information. Without proper medicine, life spans are cut drastically and humanity has to face many hardships before there can be a solid footing to even begin the process of starting over.

For instance, let's talk about the Great Pyramids for a moment. I'm of the belief that they have been here for much much longer than mainstream science would like to admit. I can't fathom how the same people who built those, are the same people who built the many other shoddier, poorly built pyramids later. I think the ancient egyptians were simply mimicking what they saw when they entered the land. Obviously if true, it would of took quite the civilization to build the beautiful, amazing structures they are that are still standing tall today.

And of course, there are plenty of ooparts out there that get swept under the rug or hidden from the public simply because they don't fit into what mainstream science/media wants to accept.

I enjoy lighthearted discussion and have a passion for finding out the truth, as I'm sure the OP and you do as well. Cheers!

Originally posted by Hanslune
Sure if you have a few billion to waste on building a rock tomb - for who exactly?

You talking about a few billion people or dollars?

reply to post by DarknStormy


Money, just need a few thousands craftsmen (which don't exist at this time, working with their primitive tools would be a real challenge, the Giza pyramid builders had several generations of experience) and 10-15,000 labour - or you could just use modern construction techniques - but that would be cheating.....

Originally posted by Blane2012
Well Hans, you're right that there isn't much evidence to prove it. However, most things degrade over time and rather quickly at that. After a major disaster, it would be hard to just pick back up where the previous civilization left off. I'm not arguing that every 20k years or so humanity starts over, but rather a much bigger window

Then why is there no sign of this in the archaeological record, no sign of the use of resources, no evidence in sediments or ice cores. Not all things degrade, we have wooden weapons from hundreds of thousands of years ago and stone tools going back a million +, cut gems last forever as do pottery, none of this is found nor habitation levels - while in the same stratas we do find evidence for early man....how does the civilization stuff disappear and the early man stuff survive??

For instance, let's talk about the Great Pyramids for a moment. I'm of the belief that they have been here for much much longer than mainstream science would like to admit.

You presuming they are a monolithic group, they are not, anyone could admit that*, but they don't - why do you think that is? Could it be...evidence?

I can't fathom how the same people who built those, are the same people who built the many other shoddier, poorly built pyramids later.

Why? What cathedral is bigger or grander than St Peter's? Have the modern Chinese built a bigger or larger grand canal or Great wall?

I think the ancient egyptians were simply mimicking what they saw when they entered the land. Obviously if true, it would of took quite the civilization to build the beautiful, amazing structures they are that are still standing tall today.

Of which there zero evidence of, so if one looks at the necropolis at Giza we find burials of AE, lots of AE cultural material - and no sign of an earlier culture. yes it did take quite a civilzation to build the beautiful , amazing structures, and you can thank the AE for it, lol

And of course, there are plenty of ooparts out there that get swept under the rug or hidden from the public simply because they don't fit into what mainstream science/media wants to accept.

Nope they can be found easily enough and debunked - so who is hiding them?

I enjoy lighthearted discussion and have a passion for finding out the truth, as I'm sure the OP and you do as well. Cheers!

I take depriving the AE of their culture a bit more seriously as I do the condescending attitude that archaeologists as a whole are part of vast conspiracy

*I'm sure somewhere someplace their is a person with a 'mainstream' archaeological background who may believe partially or wholly this, but I don't know of them

reply to post by Hanslune

How can you expect a 2000 year old battery to be found in good condition but even it worked in some conditions.. It's internal structure also indicates it was a battery
Okay, I am really not joking anything.. This text has been taken from Agastya Samhita , a really ancient book , not only this separated text but there are many others too ... I think you must get one .. because format of this book is different in different publications even in earlier days ... ,, it is just like you are asking for the location of text which tells about Newton's law of motions, and it will be found in many and variety of places,, so how can I tell about it.. I strictly advice you to take a book of Agastya Samhita as it is also rare book. . This book is available with Ocean Books(P)Ltd.,4/19, Asaf Ali Road,New Delhi-110 002.
,,, as I searched the book on net but only bengali translation was available and bengali is pretty difficult for me, so I thought to give this translation to my friend who know bengali ... This is how we came to know about ancient electric cell. Here Vikram sambat is almost 60 years ahead christian calendar

Rao Saheb Krishnaji Vajhe had passed the engineering exam in 1891 from Pune. While looking for scriptures related to science, he found a few pages of the Agastya Samhita with Damodar Tryambak Joshi of Ujjain. These belonged to around Shaka Samvat 1550. Later on, after reading the said description in the pages of the Samhita, Dr. M.C.Sahastrabuddhe, the Head of the Sanskrit Department in Nagpur felt that the description was very similar to that of Daniel Cell. So he gave it to P.P. Hole, the Professor of Engineering at Nagpur, with a request to investigate. Agastya's sources were as follows: Sansthapya Mrinmaya Patre Tamrapatram Susanskritam Chhadyechhikhigriven Chardrarbhih Kashthpamsubhih. Dastaloshto Nidhatavyah Pardachhaditastah Sanyogajjayte Tejo Mitravarunsangyitam. (Agastya Samhita) "Take an earthen pot, place a copper sheet, and put the shikhigreeva in it. Then, smear it with wet sawdust, mercury and zinc. Then, if you join the wires, it will give rise to Mitravarunashakti." When Mr. Hole an his friend started preparing the apparatus on the basis of the above description, they could understand all the things except shikhigreeva. On checking the Sanskrit dictionary, they understood that it meant the neck of a peacock. So, he and his friend went to Maharaj Bagh and asked the chief when a peacock would die in his zoo. This angered the gentleman. Then they told him that they needed its neck for an experiment. The gentleman asked them to give in an application. Later, when during a conversation, they narrated this to an Ayurveda expert, he burst out laughing and said that here it did not mean the neck of a peacock, but a substance of that colour, that is copper sulphate. This solved the problem. Thus, a cell was formed and measured with a digital multimeter. It had an open circuit voltage of 1.38 volts and short circuit current of 23 milli amperes. The information that the experiment was successful was conveyed to Dr. M.C. Sahastryabuddhe. This cell was exhibited on August 7, 1990 before the scholars of the fourth general meeting at the Swadeshi Vigyan Sanshodhan Sanstha, Nagpur. It was then realised that the description was of the electric cell. They investigated as to what the context was and it was realised that Sage Agastya had said many things before this. Anen Jalbhangosti Prano Daneshu Vayushu Evam Shatanam Kumbhanamsanyogkaryakritsmritah. (Agastya Samhita) He says that if we use the power of 100 earthen pots on water, then water will change its form into life-giving oxygen and floating hydrogen. Vayubandhakvastren Nibaddho Yanmastake Udanah Swalaghutve Bibhartyakashayanakam. (Agastya Samhita-Shilp Shastra) If hydrogen is contained in an air tight cloth, it can be used in aerodynamics, i.e. it will fly in air. Kritrimswarnarajatalepah Satkritiruchyate (Shukra Niti) A layer of polish of artificial gold or silver is called satkriti (good deed.) Yavksharamyodhanau Sushaktjalsannidhau. Aachhadyati Tattamram Swarnen Rajten Va Suvarnliptam Tattamram Shatkumbhmiti Smritam. (Agastya Samhita) In an iron vessel and in a strong acidic medium, gold or silver nitrate covers copper with a layer of gold or silver. The copper that is covered by gold is called shatakumbha or artificial gold. Rao Saheb Vajhe, who spent his life in rummaging the Indian scientific scriptures, and discovering various experiments, gave different names to electricity on the basis of the Agastya Samhita and other scriptures and that electricity is created in different ways. Agastya Samhita also contains an account of how electricity can be
used for electroplating. He also discovered a way to polish gold,
silver, and copper with a battery. Hence, Agastya is also called one
who is `Battery Born'.

Originally posted by pritishxsinha
reply to post by Hanslune

 

How can you expect a 2000 year old battery to be found in good condition but even it worked in some conditions.. It's internal structure also indicates it was a battery

The Baghdad battery dates from the 2-6th century AD

A review of the battery

Elizabeth Stone, archaeologist at Stonybrook University, says modern archaeologists do not believe the object was a "battery".[4] Skeptical archaeologists[who?] see the electrical experiments as embodying a key problem with experimental archaeology, saying that such experiments can only show that something was physically possible, but do not confirm that it actually occurred. Further, there are many difficulties with the interpretation of these artifacts as galvanic cells:[citation needed]
The bitumen completely covers the copper cylinder, electrically insulating it, so no current can be drawn without modifying the design.
There are no wires or conductors with them.
No electrical equipment is associated with them.
A bitumen seal, being thermoplastic, is excellent for forming a hermetic seal for long-term storage. It would be extremely inconvenient, however, for a galvanic cell, which would require frequent topping up of the electrolyte (if they were intended for extended use).

The artifacts strongly resemble another type of object with a known purpose — namely, storage vessels for sacred scrolls from nearby Seleucia on the Tigris. Those vessels do not have the outermost clay jar, but are otherwise almost identical. Since it is claimed[by whom?] these vessels were exposed to the elements, it is possible[opinion] that any papyrus or parchment inside had completely rotted away, perhaps leaving a trace of slightly acidic organic residue.

Okay, I am really not joking anything.. This text has been taken from Agastya Samhita , a really ancient book , not only this separated text but there are many others too ... I think you must get one .. because format of this book is different in different publications even in earlier days ... ,, it is just like you are asking for the location of text which tells about Newton's law of motions, and it will be found in many and variety of places,, so how can I tell about it.. I strictly advice you to take a book of Agastya Samhita as it is also rare book. . This book is available with Ocean Books(P)Ltd.,4/19, Asaf Ali Road,New Delhi-110 002.

Thanks for the book recommendation, I may be in Delhi next June I'll take a look. But your comparison to Newton's law of motion is not valid

Newton's law of motion

So you say there is a book that this comes out of, great and that people have been working on and verifying it, even better, so where is the published paper on the subject?

It is certainly not impossible for someone to have created a galvanic cell sometime in the past but for it to be accepted/known this knowledge, and where it comes from, needs to be brought out for public scurtiny

Thanks for your reply I hope you are right it would be an interesting expansion of human historical knowledge

Can you clarify your thoughts on early man for me Hans? Is it your belief that homo-sapiens have been mindless drones for almost 200,000 years all the way up until roughly 6-10,000 years ago? That's what it sounds like.

Originally posted by pritishxsinha

Originally posted by Hanslune

Again point to the original document, ie a translation of the ancient document by a noted scholar. I too can take a Sankrit dictionary and make up a fair description of a telephone, that doesn't mean the ancients had one

I can just advice take a book of Agsyta samhita and go through it ..

So, you can make a claim, then tell everyone else to look it up?

Sorry, no. You look it up.

An English translation of the Agasyta Samhita exists on Scribd as a section of the Garuda Mahapuranam (link.) It takes quite a while to load. The Agasyta Samhita starts on page 180.

Please direct us to the pertinant phrases, or admit that you actually have no personal knowledge whatsoever concerning the subject you raised.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by pritishxsinha

Originally posted by Hanslune

Again point to the original document, ie a translation of the ancient document by a noted scholar. I too can take a Sankrit dictionary and make up a fair description of a telephone, that doesn't mean the ancients had one

I can just advice take a book of Agsyta samhita and go through it ..

So, you can make a claim, then tell everyone else to look it up?

Sorry, no. You look it up.

An English translation of the Agasyta Samhita exists on Scribd as a section of the Garuda Mahapuranam (link.) It takes quite a while to load. The Agasyta Samhita starts on page 180.

Please direct us to the pertinant phrases, or admit that you actually have no personal knowledge whatsoever concerning the subject you raised.

Harte

I myself have come to know about this information from newspapers and internet. sometimes different verses and sometimes other . However, I am personally in a search of this book, so that I can tell exact information as I know sankrit, hindi and english .Many sites and newspapers provide that location of these verses which I have provided, but I don't believe on the locations due to the different formats I saw in different places. For example, I have Vedas but it is written in completely different format as the real Vedas, Neither I can understand which hymn is it taken from or which shloka it is, and that's why whole meanings are incomplete... I can't find any good source here as I live in a very very small town of India, so I am completely dependent on internet, . and that's why I am able to interact with you guys. . However, as soon as I get to college for studying engineering in any good city, I will try me best to get a real copy Agastya Samhita and after that I will share every thing with you guys...

Originally posted by pritishxsinha

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by pritishxsinha

Originally posted by Hanslune

Again point to the original document, ie a translation of the ancient document by a noted scholar. I too can take a Sankrit dictionary and make up a fair description of a telephone, that doesn't mean the ancients had one

I can just advice take a book of Agsyta samhita and go through it ..

So, you can make a claim, then tell everyone else to look it up?

Sorry, no. You look it up.

An English translation of the Agasyta Samhita exists on Scribd as a section of the Garuda Mahapuranam (link.) It takes quite a while to load. The Agasyta Samhita starts on page 180.

Please direct us to the pertinant phrases, or admit that you actually have no personal knowledge whatsoever concerning the subject you raised.

Harte

I myself have come to know about this information from newspapers and internet. sometimes different verses and sometimes other . However, I am personally in a search of this book, so that I can tell exact information as I know sankrit, hindi and english .

Basically, then, you affirm what I said.

See, I even went as far as to provide you with an online text, but you refuse to point out the verses that would confirm your claim.

If you're too lazy to do this, why would you expect anyone else to?

Harte

Originally posted by Blane2012
Can you clarify your thoughts on early man for me Hans? Is it your belief that homo-sapiens have been mindless drones for almost 200,000 years all the way up until roughly 6-10,000 years ago? That's what it sounds like.

Nice attempt at a strawman argument Blane, the mindless drone as YOU call them, not me, we very capable people, as smart as of today and they were the people of Catalhuyuk, Gobekli Tepe, Tell Aswad, Qaramel, Mureybet, the potters of Jomon, the ceramic makers in the Balkans, the spear makers in Europe, smart lads all. They laid the basis of the cultures that would give rise to agriculture and the rise of civilizations.

However at this time there is no evidence they were producing electricity, however it is possible that they might have, human genius is rather impressive - well except for you guys who think they are mindless drones....lol

My argument was that early humans were not mindless drones and possessed the same intelligence we have today, which is why I believe we've risen and fallen before. Even if it was 100,000 years ago. We all know that one day there will be a major event that almost causes our extinction, and an advanced culture 100,000 years from now will argue that we were the same hunters and gatherers that you're arguing we were. That's all.

It's ridiculous to think that homo-sapiens have been walking the earth for an estimated 200,000 years (Mitochondrial Eve) and just recently we started building advanced culture, regardless of what science tells us. As I stated in my original post, there's also no way of knowing how intelligent the breeds of the genus homo were before us. 1 million years ago an advanced form of human could of been partying it up, even better than we can.

Originally posted by Blane2012
It's ridiculous to think that homo-sapiens have been walking the earth for an estimated 200,000 years (Mitochondrial Eve) and just recently we started building advanced culture, regardless of what science tells us. As I stated in my original post, there's also no way of knowing how intelligent the breeds of the genus homo were before us. 1 million years ago an advanced form of human could of been partying it up, even better than we can.

Argument from personal incredulity, why is it ridiculous to believe what the evidence shows? Can you show any evidence to support this contention of yours?

Yes there could have been an earlier brainier human, however at this time not a single piece of evidence supports this idea.

You are stating belief as if it were real

Here are some question I usually ask recyclers

What is your explanation for the aborigines, they were in Australian 50,000+ years but never developed beyond the culture that the 18th European found?

What of the Khoikhoi?

How do you explain Bolomar?

Bolomar cave, occupied from 350,000 to 100,000 year ago

Originally posted by Blane2012
My argument was that early humans were not mindless drones and possessed the same intelligence we have today, which is why I believe we've risen and fallen before. Even if it was 100,000 years ago. We all know that one day there will be a major event that almost causes our extinction, and an advanced culture 100,000 years from now will argue that we were the same hunters and gatherers that you're arguing we were. That's all.

Yes at some point mother nature will strike and it will leave detectable evidence of its occurrence and also of the people and cultures it destroys. Now if an asteroid strikes the earth everything within a certain diameter will be turn to atoms, but not the whole earth and a civilization like our leaves a huge footprint.

No they will not be arguing that, they will be looking at the engineering we did, marveling at the ceramics, glass, bricks, gems, gold and other materials that have survived, not to count the massive mounds that were once our cities, and even finding the stone tools from our ancestors that came before us - besides the odd satellite still spinning above

reply to post by Harte


I went through that online text of Agastya Samhita but it dealt with the sutra that is related to precious stones like refining them, how to determine the qualities, by weight, transparency and other physical features.. where can it be used, their locations, their mining like pearls, diamonds, bhishma stone, blood stones etc ... . Thank you for that link which provided me some more knowledge about Maharishi Agastya's works........ . . However, I have come to know about the portion of Agastya Samhita that deals with the topic like one I presented , it is the verse of shilpa sutra or shilpa shashtra, the book of Agastya. which also deals with the uses of hydrogen like

The "Agastya Samhita" gives us Agastya`s descriptions of two types of aeroplanes. The first is a "chchatra" (umbrella or balloon) to be filled with hydrogen. The process of extracting hydrogen from water is described in elaborate detail and the use of electricity in achieving this is clearly stated. This was stated to be a primitive type of plane, useful only for escaping from a fort when the enemy had set fire to the jungle all around. Hence the name "Agniyana". The second type of aircraft mentioned is somewhat on the lines of the parachute. It could be opened and shut by operating chords. This aircraft has been described as "vimanadvigunam"

Shillpa Sutra is just one,, there are many books of him ...

Works of Agastya Authorship of various works is ascribed to sage agastya. Here is an attempt to list such works, based on details furnished by mahAmahopAdhyAya rA satyanArAyaNa and Prof. Nanjundayya of Mysore University. Most of the works seem to be available in print or as manuscripts, except for those related to shilpa shAstra. Works on shrIvidyA: 1. agastya sUtra 2. tripurasundarI stotra 3. pa~nchadashI mantra vyAkhyA (shrutisamuddhR^ita shrIvidyA TIkA) 4. shrIvidyAdIpikA 5. purashcharaNa paTala 6. yogamInAkShI stotra 7. yogoddhAra chakrabhAvanA 8. shakti sUtra (not the same as agastya sUtra) 9. saubhAgya kavacha Other Works: 1. agastya gR^ihyasUtra 2. agastya paTala (jyotiSha) 3. agastya prakAsha saMhitA 4. agastya vAstu shAstra 5. agastya vaidya 6. agastya shilpa shAstra 7. agastya shrautasUtra 8. agastya tantra shastra 9. agastyAShTaka 10. atharvaveda kalpasUtra 11. chitrAgastya (shilpa shAstra) 12. dvaidha nirNaya 13. agastya nATya shAstra 14. pa~nchapakShi shAstra 15. pravarAdhyAya 16. maNi lakShaNa/ratna parIkShA 17. shivabhakti vilAsa 18. sakalAdhikAra 19. shivAdhikAra 20. sudarshana kalpa Miscellaneous works: 1. kArtikeya stotra 2. gaNapati stotra 3. goShThIshvara stotra 4. dashAvatAra stotra 5. lakShmI stotra 6. vedapAda stave 7. shiva stuti 8. shiva stotra 9. shivAShTaka 10. sarasvatI stotra 11. mahAsudarshana kavacha 12. ekAdashamukha hanUmat kavacha

These are the books attributed to Maharishi Agastya and very difficult to organize them or locate them on any basis..It is different from Vedas like any verse of Vedas provided we can easily find its location by knowing its verse no, hymn no., mandal no.or group no. or book no. as per different vedas and name of the particular vedas, but here condition is different as I am sure Agastya Samhita must not be including all books or all vast topics and there is no division of topic in an organised manner,, it differentiated with different topics. It may also be possible that Different publications deal with different topics as per their understanding because in one book, it is not possible to cover all these. It is just like I bought Rigveda translation, just one complete book, not its different part, however, i was unable to understand anything,, as so vast topics of rigveda was embedded in one book,, without any division and topic, just written, and were divided but in chapters,, not like in real ones like mandala, hymns etc as I saw on net and I couldn't locate any thing I wanted to know,, Similarly, there can;t be just a continuous translation of agastya Samhita but there must be translations of different topics, so that we will be able to find .. There may be even some books of agastya which are still not translated or lost in these decades.. However, Now I will especially search for Shilpa Sutra of Agastya Samhita ...to exactly find the thing ..

Thank you

No they will not be arguing that, they will be looking at the engineering we did, marveling at the ceramics, glass, bricks, gems, gold and other materials that have survived, not to count the massive mounds that were once our cities, and even finding the stone tools from our ancestors that came before us - besides the odd satellite still spinning above

These materials would certainly survive if left untouched, but I'm not certain these materials would survive the humans who would mess with them or what would happen over the course of 10,000-20,000 years, much less 100,000. After an ice age, of course there would be early tools that man possessed. It's not like after a 10,000 year Ice age humans would just be able to craft rifles to hunt with. There is evidence of ancient massive mounds that once were cities, still being uncovered. I'm not sure how this reflects on what kind of tech humans had such a long time ago. There's also evidence of ports and world-wide trade going back possibly 200,000 years ago.

Those satellites, would by then have fell from the sky and degraded. There would not be evidence of a satellite from 50,000 years ago, much less 100,000 years. I understand you're skeptical and there is a lack of evidence, and you don't have to agree with my views or beliefs. I actually respect that you're searching for answers, as am I. Have a great day!

reply to post by Blane2012


Howdy Blane, I'll be traveling until Monday, will comment once I'm home again typing on an IPad is maddening!