Firstly, let me explain my position. I am pretty much on the fence with global warming. I don't understand the science behind it, and have always been pretty skeptical of global warming. I am friends with many scientists who do believe, including one leading researcher and have had some pretty interesting arguments with them for and against.

However, I would *like* to have clear evidence for global warming presented to me. The oil companies are probably the most well-documented evil companies in the world, and their propaganda machine is second to none. Our dependence on oil is a huge problem. I struggle to understand why anyone would be anti-global warming from a philosophical standpoint - you are basically supporting the evil empire itself. I can't seem to think of a single reason why we would like to believe in the oil companies instead of the environmentalists; environmentalists are demonstratably the lesser of two evils in all cases I can think of.

Please enlighten me. Why do you not believe in global warming?

[edit on 6-12-2009 by xelamental]

Originally posted by xelamental
Please enlighten me. Why do you not believe in global warming?

Because then they'll have to change. And change is hard.

I don't think the elites care that much whether people follow the global warming agenda or not. They own everything, the oil companies and all. So, I'm not exactly sure why there're so many tug of war regarding this climate change issue.

Originally posted by SmokeJaguar67
I believe the global warming argument and the idea that humans are the cause is nothing but a disgusting greed driven and cynical scam to bring about a new level of taxation and draconian laws that can be created as a benefit to the elite and a disadvantage to the general population.

Umm... this makes no sense. We are already slaves to oil. If we stop using so much, we will give them less money... I do not see your logic here sir.

To put forward that we are the cause of global warming on the scale that is being fed to us in the mainstream is ridiculous to me.

I don't claim to understand the science behind it. Do you?

Apparently the earth has been heating up for years but so have many other planets in the solar system from mars right out to Pluto. Unless our pollution can reach as far as Pluto I am left with no choice but to use common sense and presume that the heating debate is a purposeful lie and that the solar heating is being caused by our sun and that this heating is probably a cyclical heating phenomenon.

Could you explain how the statistical models account for cyclical heating in their analysis please? If not, can you really argue with the method without understanding it?

The elite are using this cyclical heating phenomenon as a tool that they hope can suck more funds from the bank accounts of the people they hold with nothing but contempt.

Do you think they may get more by driving up the price of oil or by getting people to use less? You really think carbon credits are going to make a blip on the scale of the money the oil companies enjoy?

Originally posted by Jazzyguy

Originally posted by xelamental
Please enlighten me. Why do you not believe in global warming?

Because then they'll have to change. And change is hard.

I don't get it. Who?

Well I can tell you this and then I will leave you too it because you just confirmed my suspicions that this thread and your reasons for posting it was nothing but a jab with a stick (and you thought you were being so clever).

I put forward my argument as was requested by this thread, and I could go on and answer your other questions now that your have finally come out into the open but you have been underhand and therefore I feel no motivation to waste my time. Had you been more honest in your opening post then I might have done so.

I suspected from the beginning that this thread was posted by a global warming proponent the moment I read it but I took the bait and posted my opinion, you shot your bolt far too soon, you should have waited for others to give their opinions.

Deny ignorance, don't pretend to be ignorant of the subject when in fact your mind was already made up long before you posted.

Here is a tip for you, if you want an honest debate then you should start your thread with an honest intent without hiding.

Good day, sir


[edit on 6-12-2009 by SmokeJaguar67]

Originally posted by SmokeJaguar67
Well I can tell you this and then I will leave you too it because you just confirmed my suspicions that this thread and your reasons for posting it was nothing but a jab with a stick (and you thought you were being so clever).

I put forward my argument as was requested by this thread, and I could go on and answer your other questions now that your have finally come out into the open but you have been underhand and therefore I feel no motivation to waste my time. Had you been more honest in your opening post then I might have done so.

I suspected from the beginning that this thread was posted by a global warming proponent the moment I read it but I took the bait and posted my opinion, you shot your bolt far too soon, you should have waited for others to give their opinions.

Deny ignorance, don't pretend to be ignorant of the subject when in fact your mind was already made up long before you posted.

Here is a tip for you, if you want an honest debate with then you should start your thread with an honest intent without hiding.

Good day, sir

[edit on 6-12-2009 by SmokeJaguar67]

Seriously? WTF? I am not a proponent. I am a scientist though, and know a thing or two about statistics.

Originally posted by SmokeJaguar67

To put forward that we are the cause of global warming on the scale that is being fed to us in the mainstream is ridiculous to me.

[edit on 6-12-2009 by SmokeJaguar67]

Why is it ridiculous to you? I think you missed the intent of the OP. Why are you against the environmentalist.

What makes it ridiculous to you? Are you more aware and intelligent than those who believe we are a significant cause of climate change because of the enormous amount of carbon we are adding to the atmosphere?

Why would you take up the side of big Oil rather than green energy. Either way we are paying someone for energy. One is cleaner than the other and that is a Fact no matter how you spin global warming.

What "IF" you are wrong and these guys are not ridiculous? Then we have destroyed our world when we could have gone green and not taken the risk?

The fact is None of us have the facts yet. The climate is changing regardless so why not take the Green pill instead of the black one? We don't know what will happen if we keep taking the black one but the green one is pretty safe and clean.

Are you just happy with oil or what?

it's about being lied to. Plain and simple. Yes it was getting warmer up until 06, now it's going down a bit, and it may go up again, just like it had for billions of years.

Our affect, however small, seems to be extremely temporary. Like was said the other day, when planes stopped flying after 9-11, people noticed a big difference, when cars stopped for a day in Baghdad, people noticed a big change.

I don't know what it will take to get people to change, but it's obvious lies, aren't' working, and taxes won't do anything but piss us off. If scientist were more focused on finding a usable alternative energy instead of trying desperately to convince an unwilling population that their world is going to end, we might get somewhere.

Originally posted by Jazzyguy

Originally posted by xelamental
Please enlighten me. Why do you not believe in global warming?

Because then they'll have to change. And change is hard.

I don't think the elites care that much whether people follow the global warming agenda or not. They own everything, the oil companies and all. So, I'm not exactly sure why there're so many tug of war regarding this climate change issue.

The reason is very obvious my friend. Distraction. Keep the little peons fighting over the stuff that they generate out of thin air while they continue to collect and amass the wealth and resources of the planet.

This squabble is not new. It was brought up 40 years ago and pushed hard then. They realized it was too soon so they shelved it for a couple decades while they put their paid scientists to work to weed out the stuff that they wanted.

The fact that the information showing that they lied was leaked out is simply another way to divide the masses and keep the focus away from what is really happening.

To them it really doesn't matter, as you said, because they virtually own it all as it is. If the GW crowd win and the theory is pushed through then they win because they will be able to control the masses through legislation and taxes. As if they don't already.

I'm rambling now. I just wanted to make the point that it is really a pointless argument.

Take care of your environment because you live in it. Don't piss in your drinking water. But don't let them run your life and tell you what you can buy and how many lights you can have on.

Originally posted by xelamental

Originally posted by SmokeJaguar67
I believe the global warming argument and the idea that humans are the cause is nothing but a disgusting greed driven and cynical scam to bring about a new level of taxation and draconian laws that can be created as a benefit to the elite and a disadvantage to the general population.

Umm... this makes no sense. We are already slaves to oil. If we stop using so much, we will give them less money... I do not see your logic here sir.

Of course it makes no sense, because it's wrong. Of course the elites want people to stay addicted to oil. But it's not about oil, it's about china. People who is against global warming, they tend to support the status quo, which is beneficial to the oil companies. In the end whether you believe it or not in global warming, people will be divided whether they want to change their consumption pattern or not. That is why some people are getting so defensive about it, because now it's so obvious that some people will rather stay as a slave to the oil companies than to change their habits.

Cap and trade has nothing to do with it, the elites always have the ability to rob you blind one way or the other. But they don't have to make it as apparent as this, because it's not about robbing the people, it's about containing china.

In essence, people who is pro global warming, they'll help the western elites in their agenda to contain china. Vice versa, the anti global warming crowd will help the communist china rising power to the world stage.

Originally posted by dariousg
Take care of your environment because you live in it. Don't piss in your drinking water. But don't let them run your life and tell you what you can buy and how many lights you can have on.

I agree with you, you definitely must take care the environment, but don't let the elites dictate how you live. But then again, there's no way they'll relinquish control, because they'll feel they are the ones who are being dictated.. by us.

Originally posted by Xeven
Why is it ridiculous to you? I think you missed the intent of the OP. Why are you against the environmentalist.

I do not think I missed the point of the op but as is the way with opinion it is all subjective so maybe I have missed his point in your eyes and that is fine - I disagree however.

Also, I am not against environmentalists at all. What I am against is the bandwagon they have all jumped on because this bandwagon is not watertight and I am expected to pay for something based on a science that was written up behind closed doors. You only have to read up on the leaked emails to discover that facts were squeezed and inconvenient truths were hidden from view just so this new agenda of the environmentalist could see the light of day.

There are so many holes in the argument that all of a sudden we are a cause of global warming that it is that particular element that is ridiculous to me.

Originally posted by XevenWhat makes it ridiculous to you? Are you more aware and intelligent than those who believe we are a significant cause of climate change because of the enormous amount of carbon we are adding to the atmosphere?

I did not say we are not contributing to global warming so please step down from the horse before you suffer an aneurism. I would consider myself much more aware than the woolly headed fools who listen to and believe anything the environmentalist says because they wear green T shirts and preach change because bad humans are destroying the earth... What a crock!

Originally posted by XevenWhy would you take up the side of big Oil rather than green energy. Either way we are paying someone for energy. One is cleaner than the other and that is a Fact no matter how you spin global warming.

Why would you assume I am on the side of big oil? You made a huge leap there so I am fair in assuming you need someone to take a set of wool shears to you? I am not spinning global warming I am disagreeing with the whole premise of it because in climbing onto your high horse you have not even mentioned the facts that the solar system is warming up. Facts buried under an agenda and you are a willing participant in that agenda by closing your mind to facts. Do not listen to me or the OP go and research the facts for you. You will surprise yourself.

Originally posted by XevenWhat "IF" you are wrong and these guys are not ridiculous? Then we have destroyed our world when we could have gone green and not taken the risk?

What a ridiculous thing to say. I am sorry but it is because in twenty million years what will have changed? Do you really, seriously believe that within a few hundred years that we will have destroyed the world because we loved our cars and our central heating? Your government would love you to believe that but I am not concerned. We are in the middle of a climatic shift not because we exist but because the sun is heating up.

Read my lips, the sun is heating up go and check out this fact for yourself because this thread, the low handed methods of the OP and your closed mind is depressing.

Originally posted by Xeven
he fact is None of us have the facts yet. The climate is changing regardless so why not take the Green pill instead of the black one? We don't know what will happen if we keep taking the black one but the green one is pretty safe and clean.

The sun, read some interesting facts about the sun and its cyclical events throughout history and then start thinking for yourself because it is dangerous to believe any old crock the political machine throws at you.

Originally posted by XevenAre you just happy with oil or what?

By the way I am buying an SUV next year (not because I am on the side of big oil) but because I like big cars. I do not believe the crock about global warming because it is a lie and the government is laughing all the way to the bank.


[edit on 6-12-2009 by SmokeJaguar67]