Did six million really die?

I think the number of 6 million was "settled upon" as an average, because the Nazis kinda bragged that they killed more Jews than that, and the Holocaust deniers said that the number was more like 3 or 4 million. So, 6 was sort of the middle ground.

William Grimstad wrote a very poorly-received book entitled "The Six Million Reconsidered" which plodded over this subject. It's a good book, and Grimstad is a great writer, I think, but he carries the mantle of "Historical Revisionist"... Which doesn't really bug me, because I understand Grimstad's point: He maintains that popular history has been "crafted" and "embellished" by the victors — which is certainly a fact — and his mission is to dig out the Truth of history.

So, he wears his "revisionist" mantle well — Grimstad doesn't deny the Holocaust, but he wants the truth, he wants the true numbers. Some people are very protective of those numbers.

This has gotten his ass in a lot of trouble over the years, mainly from those who accuse him of being an anti-semite and a Nazi, just because he has questioned the Holocaust.

— Doc Velocity

I don't know the numbers but many were killed.

The number of 5-6 million has been researched and validated time and time again. I'm not sure why anyone questions it anymore. And yes if a jew dies in a Nazi Camp from a lung infection they are still responsible for it being as they are holding said person against his will.

The Holocaust commemoration center, the Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, comments:
There is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. The figure commonly used is the six million established by the Nuremberg Tribunal in 1946 and repeated later by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. Most research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million. Early calculations range from 5.1 million (Professor Raul Hilberg) to 5.95 million (Jacob Leschinsky). More recent research, by Professor Yisrael Gutman and Dr. Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, estimates the Jewish losses at 5.59-5.86 million, and a study headed by Dr. Wolfgang Benz presents a range from 5.29-6 million. The main sources for these statistics are comparisons of prewar censuses with postwar censuses and population estimates. Nazi documentation containing partial data on various deportations and murders is also used. We estimate that Yad Vashem currently has somewhat more than four million names of victims that are accessible.
Raul Hilberg, in the third edition of his ground-breaking three-volume work, The Destruction of the European Jews, estimates that 5.1 million Jews died during the Holocaust. This figure includes "over 800,000" who died from "Ghettoization and general privation"; 1,400,000 who were killed in "Open-air shootings"; and "up to 2,900,000" who perished in camps. Hilberg estimates the death toll in Poland at "up to 3,000,000". Hilberg's numbers are generally considered to be a conservative estimate, as they typically include only those deaths for which some records are available, avoiding statistical adjustment. British historian Martin Gilbert used a similar approach in his "Atlas of the Holocaust", but arrived at a number of 5.75 million Jewish victims, since he estimated higher numbers of Jews killed in Russia and other locations.
Lucy S. Dawidowicz used pre-war census figures to estimate that 5.934 million Jews died (see her figures here).
One of the most authoritative German scholars of the Holocaust, Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin, cites between 5.3 and 6.2 million Jews killed in Dimension des Völkermords (1991), while Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett estimate between 5.59 and 5.86 million Jewish victims in the Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust (1990).
There were about 9.4 million Jews in the territories controlled directly or indirectly by the Nazis. (Some uncertainty arises from the lack of knowledge about how many Jews there were in the Soviet Union). The 6 million killed in the Holocaust thus represent about 64% of these Jews. Of Poland's 3.3 million Jews, over 90 percent were killed. The same proportion were killed in Latvia and Lithuania, but most of Estonia's Jews were evacuated in time. In Czechoslovakia, Greece, the Netherlands and Yugoslavia, over 70 percent were killed. More than 50 percent were killed in Belgium, Hungary and Romania. It is likely that a similar proportion were killed in Belarus and Ukraine, but these figures are less certain. Countries with notably lower proportions of deaths include Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Italy and Norway. Finally, of the 750,000 Jews in Germany and Austria in 1933, only about a quarter survived. Although many German Jews emigrated before 1939, the majority of these fled to Czechoslovakia, France or the Netherlands, from where they were later deported to their deaths.
The number of people killed at the major extermination camps is estimated as follows:
Auschwitz-Birkenau: 1.4 million; Belzec: 500,000; Chelmno: 152,000; Majdanek: 78,000 (figure under review); Maly Trostinets: 65,000; Sobibór: 250,000; and Treblinka: 870,000.
This gives a total of over 3.3 million; of these, 90% are estimated to have been Jews. These seven camps alone thus accounted for half the total number of Jews killed in the entire Nazi Holocaust. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Poland died in these camps.
In addition to those who died in the above extermination camps, at least half a million Jews died in other camps, including the major concentration camps in Germany. These were not extermination camps, but had large numbers of Jewish prisoners at various times, particularly in the last year of the war as the Nazis withdrew from Poland. About a million people died in these camps, and although the proportion of Jews is not known with certainty, it was estimated to be at least 50 percent. Another 800,000 to 1 million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied Soviet territories (an approximate figure, since the Einsatzgruppen killings were frequently undocumented). Many more died through execution or of disease and malnutrition in the ghettos of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Hungary before they could be deported.
For more information, see these links:
www.yadvashem.org...
www.ushmm.org...

The numbers of death means nothing, after changing into incomprehandable statistics.

Where my ideas go haywire, everyt time i read discusion, debat or arguing. On this topic is this. Total deahtcount was way higher then they say.

De fact Hitler and his nazi are always the biggest, scariest en most evil around.

But there ar much worse !!

Stalin, Mao. And they did not rebuiled an entire bankrupt nation. up to a point being the biggest baddest player in the hood for a few jears.

And of course do not forget. Hitler also played his part as a pon on a chessboard.

Originally posted by audas
Um there are several different types of camps - concentration camps, death camps, labor camps, etc. The Final solution came late in the war and as such there is an absolute impossibility that the numbers are correct for gassing. However that does not mean that 6 million did not die from forced labor, conditions, experimentation, cruelty, indiscriminate murder, starvation, disease etc. The number given is generally seen as between 4 and 6 million jews (a whopping discrepancy of 50%. However the total number of people who died in the death camps is put at 11 million.

What is saddest of all is that even if 6 million Jews did die - 5 million others were put to death and have been entirely forgotten. Their memory has simply been stolen by the Israeli cause.....that is a true shame.

I don't know why everyone has got it so wrong. The original history was that about 3 million jews were killed and about 3 million christians of mostly polish blood. Most people lump those two numbers together for convenience.

As well, my great-grandparents were polish jews who fled right before World War 2. They use to live in Krakow, but they came to America posing as catholics instead of jews so they would not be discriminated. They were rich, so they could get pretty much what they wanted.

Their name is Egnaczyk... there are still a couple hundred left in Poland. The Egnaczyks don't like to interact with eachother because the Egnaczyks are very, very intelligent (egotistical) and hot-headed people (generally), but the stories they told eachother are not incredibly embellished... as they usually have a distaste for untruth (especially in the form of omission).

I'm telling you that some poles were gassed.

But also, the numbers might not be perfectly accurate (but since when are they?) due to the fact that, as I told you, my great-grandparents claimed to be catholics when they came to America. They also only told their kids for the longest time that they were catholics. Apparently my mom figured out that they were actually jews at some point.

I am sure they weren't the only ones to come up with such a plan.

But it is completely inaccurate even if you're going by the fake history to say that 6 million jews were killed because no history ever said that. Someone lumped those numbers together and everyone has taken it for granted since.

Edit to change "as" to "has".

[edit on 2/6/2010 by TarzanBeta]

Originally posted by JPhish
i came to my own conclusion that it was definitely less than 2 million. Probably somewhere around 1 million.

Most of the numbers were severely inflated because of wartime propaganda. They were trying to villainize the Nazis.

They made up lots of ridiculous things.

Gassing millions of Jews in chambers and then turning them into soap?

I don't think so.

Working the Jews, using them to power Hitlers war machine but "offing" them when they were no longer viable workers by freezing them to death or shooting them?

I don't think there was any need to villainize the Nazis, I think they accomplished that all by themselves. And yes, the Nazis subjected Jews and other minorities to rediculous things like letting them freeze to death in ice baths. None of us would probably have the stomach to watch the # people were subjected to in the camps. They gassed a lot of people they had no use for, hair was used to stuff pillows, skin was used to make soap (but not on an industrial scale) and gold teeth were melted down. Gassing usually took place right after the quick health check everyone who arrived at the camps had to go through.

Where I come from we learn this in the third grade. Camp survivors living in Sweden used to tour our schools telling us of what happened to them in the camps. Have you ever met a survivor from a Nazi death camp? I have.

[edit on 10-2-2010 by cripmeister]

Forget the posters: I think ATS is governed by government agents. If many of the posts are from shills, what does that say about the governing ability of the owner and mods even if they aren't in on it? Doesn't speak well for them at all if it's true.

I have some questions on this issue.
1. I read somewhere that there werent even that many Jews in the world at that time?? (6 million) but cant find the info on it.

2. The gas said to be used is non-soluble and leaves a 'prussian blue' residue on the walls of the showers used for the gassings??

3. Why were such detailed logs kept on the prisoners if they were there to be gassed? Why were the Jews released from the camps after the war? Why not kill them as opposed to freeing them if they were there just to be executed?

Hate using the word 'Jew', sounds so derogatory? Is it?

Peace. K*

Holocaust Denial is a weird thing to me. It spreads amongst our community a lot I've noticed (a community of those looking to see truth through fiction), but it represents everything our community stands against. We look to expose things that are difficult to believe that are true and have evidence supporting them. The holocaust denier denies the holocaust specifically BECAUSE it is difficult to believe, even with a mountain of evidence supporting it.

Forget the posters: I think ATS is governed by government agents. If many of the posts are from shills, what does that say about the governing ability of the owner and mods even if they aren't in on it? Doesn't speak well for them at all if it's true.

what gets me is it has become a criminal act denying the numbers in germany. there were not that many killed only 1/2 so if you bring up the facts you are imprisoned? this to me is just as insane allowing this to happen to people just discussing the facts who actually were not even a part of the war then nor alive for that matter.

does it really matter? NO

one being killed is far to many

no but im sure its just the jews trying to control the masses right? rofl

stop listening to racists.

From what i have read on the post war years there was a census carried out on the population in mainland Europe, And the census was declared invalid. Because it was believed that the vast majority of the remaining Holocaust survivors refrained from using there original names (Jewish origin ?) . In case IMO they were interned..

Most of the anger and hatred expressed by anti-Israeli comments coming from Jewish academia and those with historical concerns is not that these types deny that a holocaust occurred, but that anyone who attempts to verify the truth is somehow a anti-Semitic, Jew hating conspiracy nut.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. If questioning and wanting to know the truth is akin to being anti-Semitic, then Israel has taken the same position with the Holocaust numbers and their validness as to accuracy to the same level as those that refuse anyone's request for a new 911 investigation claiming that to question the official story is somehow unpatriotic and or conspiratorial and or nuts.

If questioning a matter that experts and historians seek to be investigated is somehow unpatriotic, then those that would cast such dispersions reveal more about themselves that they probably care to reveal.

Israeli coercion, and intimidation with preventing anyone from truly researching and revealing the truth of history is not being anti-Semitic unless Israel already knows, which of course they do, that they embellished the numbers of 6 million to gain the favor and sympathy of the world which of course worked. Since it worked they don't want to be seen as having used the deaths of so many for political favor nor do they want to change in the minds of the world the number, "SIX MILLION."

Now that someone wants to know the truth, the truth can not be revealed because it would make Israel look just like what she looks like. Israel is just another deceiver, lying nation state with no honor for truth or for justice let alone academic accuracy. As long as Israel continues to act as if some pillar of their society will crumble if the truth be known is running a close second to what Israel shows the world most of the time, and that is that Israel really doesn't care as long as no one knows the truth of what they want kept secret from the world.

Russia did suffer many more millions of deaths, yet Russia is of no concern as long as no one questions the lies propagated by Israel. Challenging the accepted truth has gotten to be most sensitive these days and I for one know sooner or later, it wont matter what Israel states. Israel is getting to be much like the main street media. Uncaring, deceitful and full of lies that will cost American lives to help Israel pursue her foreign policy objectives on the backs of American tax payers that send billions to Israel while Americans do without.

Sooner or later this Israeli madness will end and when it does, I just know Israel will still be blaming someone or calling someone anti-Semite just because they don't know any other way of life except, lie, lie and never tell the truth about why they lied because then the cat would be out of the bag and it will be screaming and clawing in a most ferocious manner when the cat gets let out of the bag and so with that vision of a cat out of the bag, it would most preferable for Israel if just no one would question their lies.

Israel is too busy salivating at the mouth with a potential coming war with Iran and with so such silly conspiratorial concerns about "6 Million" being accurate is not exactly what they want to be seen focusing on these days.

Such inconveniences of historical accuracy regarding the Holocaust is not important while so much blood waits for the taking in nearby Iran, Syria and elsewhere where ever Israel covets land and resources distracts Israel from their more serious concerns of world domination over the earths inhabitants.

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


en.wikipedia.org...

USSR: 24 millions
China: 20 millions

Read an interesting theory on cyclone B, The chemical used as an anti typhoid remedy, Apparently it has to be used in a moist warm environment to make the chemical poisonous to humans, So considering the design and layout of the shower/gas chambers with the way the procedure was processed, Derobe then "delousing" then cremation, All in the same complex the perfect environment for mass killings.. IMO

I do not think that it matters how many people died, just that people did die. Sure, maybe the number was higher then how many actually died, but what would it change? Things remain the same: Jews got killed, Poles got killed, Maquis got killed, and the Nazis remain thugs.

The Holocaust Denial industry is one of those things that make me feel like I am living in Bizarro world its like up is down and down is up. I have found that Holocaust Deniers fall into to three main catagories.

1. Judeophobes (I dont use the term anti Semite as there folks other than Jewish that are Semites)(KKK and certain so called christians)

2. Naziphiles (Who for some reason seem to think the Nazi Third Reich is a good thing and seek to rehabilitate Adolph Hitler and his Ilk in the eyes of the world)(StormFront and various Neo Nazi groups)
3. Activist Moslem Leaders (Who use Holocaust denial to rally thier people against Israel.) (Ahmadinejad and the Muslim Brotherhood.)

As someone who has actually walked the grounds at Dachau and seen the ovens,lampshades made of human skin and clothing made of human hair I have to seriously question the sanity of those involved in the denial of this immense human tragedy. While Dachau wasnt a Jewish Death Camp it was the prototype that the Nazi used in constructing other camps, Dachau was a camp that housed resistance fighters , clergy, homosexuals and other enemies of the Reich, While I would never be one to take away from some one the ability to Deny the Holocaust as I am a firm believer in free speech and thought, Truthfully by letting the Denier speak and write thier revised histories they expose themselves for the frauds and haters that they are and it is a good thing that right minded people can see them.

Previously in this thread it has been stated that there were only 6 million Jewish folks in Europe in 1939. This can be proven false by picking up any world almanac of the time period in question. Even the Nazis who were meticulous in thier record keeping put the number at 11 million in Nazi Occupied territory in 1942. You can see this by the minutes of the Wannsee Conference held in 1942. Most sources will place the numbers of the European Jeish population at 9.5-10 million.

The Wannsee Conference

The Holocaust

In 1950 there were approximately 3.5-4 million Jewish folks in remaining in Europe. So where did these Jewish folks go to?. To use Nazi terminolgy they were evacuated , used as slave labor , gassed , shot and buried in mass graves or burned in crematoria. Read your history speak to survivors and to the soldiers that liberated these camps. Also now you can look through 50 million pages of Nazi documents that were opened to the public in 2006.

Revisiting The Horrors Of The Holocaust

Germany Agrees to Open Holocaust Archive

One of the tactics used by the Holocaust Denier is the fact that more folks of other groups were killed by the Nazis, they will freely admit that the Nazis killed over 11 million Slavics, Gypsies, Communists, Witches , Mason, Astrologers, Homosexuals , Clergy and many others. The only number they will ever call into questions is the figure of 6 million Jewish folks. To deny an anti Jewish agenda on the part of the Holocaust denier is to be part of the insanty ourselves.


If someone denied that African Americans were slaves in the United States would we take this person seriously?

If someone denied the Bataan Death March took place or the Rape of Nanking took place would we take them seriously.

Would we deny that European colonialism in the New World resulted in the Death of between 10 million and 20 million Native Americans on 2 continents?


If you want to oppose the policies of the Israeli Government then oppose them based on the merits, do not bring the Holocaust into it, you have lost the arguement against the Israeli government as soon as a denial of the Holocaust comes into play.

No six million Jews never died, the numbers are lott less and have been added for propaganda purpose which carried on from that time.

6,000,000 Jewish people but an estimated 32,000,000 - 35,000,000 were slaughtered by The Nazi Regime during the period of 1935 - 1945.

Person's from all ethnicities and backgrounds were all slaughtered.

Caucasian, Arab, Africans, Orientals, Islanders, Hispanics. Let us not forget about the elderly, disabled, handicapped, delinquints, petty criminals, gay, intersexed, . Basically if you did not meet the specifications of "The Master Race" you were killed. Kristallnacht in October 1938 alone resulted in 91 dead with at least 30,000 alone being incarcirated. Those that matched the following description were deemed safe by The Reich :

1. Blonde hair
2. Baby blue eyes
3. Natural and complete Germanic-Nordic ancestry
4. Swear total, blind allegiance and alliance to not only The Reich but to The Fuher exclusively!
5. Saw, recognized, acknowledged Hitler as God and The Reich as above one's family.

Europe's overall population grew during the period between went from 530,000,000 in 1930 to 579,000,000 in 1940.
www.vaughns-1-pagers.com...

With Germany and many other Nazi ran nations records having been destroyed in an effort to erase Jewish people from the historical record makes it in reality impossible to determine the true death toll.