Did six million really die?

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
I don't think it really matters if 2, 3, 4 or 6 million Jews died, it was a lot. What I don't understand though, is why they have special sympathy rights when 24 million Russians died, including 14 million civilians. If any nation deserves unique sympathy, it's the Russian people, not the Jews.

Indeed. My partner has a degree in WW1 and 2 history and there are so many facts that are not taught as mainstream history in schools. It's only when you look into it on a higher level that you find out much, much more.

Yes, millions of jews were murdered during WW2 but so were millions of Russians and Poles. Germany invaded Poland but so did Russia and nobody did a thing about it!! The Russians killed millions of Poles and the allies did NOTHING about this invasion. So, Churchill decided to side with the Russians against the Germans even though the Russians had invaded Poland at the same time!! Mr Chrurchill turned a blind eye to this and should have been tried for war crimes himself! He was responsible for the deaths of millions of Poles just as much as the Germans and the Russians.

I have learnt so much from Scott about the real history that is taught at a University level, and many documentaries about WW2 are now reporting this previously censored information. The Russians, and Stalin, were pretty much on a par with the Nazis. Stalin was an absolute lunatic who sent half of his own people to the Gulag. Hitler, sadly turned a blind eye to many of the things that were happening within his ranks.

Eg; he told many of his offiers to 'get rid of the jewish problem' and he didn't care how they did it. Some officers simply gave the jewish people that they were in charge of German citizenship....problem solved or shipped them off to another country. This happened many times and Hitler didn't care because it was a 'solution'. But then you have all the lunatic officers who decided it meant something else and we ended up with genocide. Hitler was directly responsible yes but he also have his officers too much freedom to do what they pleased.

And remember this...the UK has a lot to answer for. They proactively turned away Jews who needed a safe place to go during the war. Literally sending them back to Germany to die. Absolutley disgusting and Churchill was never made accountable for this. makes you wonder what the hell they were fighting for at all when the very people who were suffering and being murdered in their millions were still turned away by the allies. Shameful

reply to post by swinggal


I don't know which history books your partner studied love ? Churchill did many things in the war out of sheer necessity ! He 'allowed' Coventry to be bombed knowing full well that hundreds if not thousands of his own people would perish, because if he let it known he knew to the Germans it would compromise a counter attack objective ! When the French surrendered he 'had' to destroy the French Navy Fleet so the Germans could not commandeer the vessels and use them against the allies killing many French sailors in the process ! Both necessary but unfortunate measures in advancing the war in the allies favour ! War is a messy business and some things are unsavoury ! Getting back on topic however many Jews perished in Germany it is an extremely high crime to even deny the holocaust and your thrown in jail and the key quite rightly thrown away ! It's abhorrent to me that anyone should call into question the final solution and yes the Russians lost many many more than 6 million but it does'nt make it any less devastating to the families that lost members and to families that were completely wiped out ! May they all rest in peace be they any nationality ! I attend the service of rememberence Every year i have done since i can remember and i'm 46 now ! When ive gone my daughter will pay the families respects and my grandson after that and we should NEVER FORGET !

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
I don't know about six million, but my family personally lost 10 members, and they where in poland.

Six million does seem like a slightly inflated number, it wouldnt surprise me if Six million is the total number of all people killed due to Nazi eugenics.

However I am sure that the Jewish community did suffer considerable loss (a couple of million), enough to make people raising this question continously completely sick.

Whether that is justification for giving the Zionists Palestine to remake Israel and everything that happened since is another discussion entirely. Encouraging Holocaust denial is disgusting simple as, just as disgusting as what israel is doing to the Palestianians and what they are doing to Israeli born innocent citizens in return.

So someone wants to question the numbers, and it is completely disgusting? That's like if someone had 6 million dollars taken from them, then somebody proved it was only 3 million, then saying "who cares, money was taken from me!" While the situations are different in emotions, it doesn't do any favors to exaggerate the number.

Some people just want to know the truth. The number for an objective viewer will not matter as far as the loss for the Jews, but if it matters so much to them than maybe they are using the numbers as more of an excuse to hold over our heads.

85 million christians died during that same period in time (ww2) ,

to be honest i dont know what is worse , to suffercate on your lungs from a mustrad gas attack or dying from malnutrition due to lack of food.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Jews were special in that they were basically the only religious group singled out for extermination. .

It is my understanding that the Jehovah's Witnesses suffered as well. So Jews were not the only religious group singled out for extermination.

jehovah.to...

www.ushmm.org...

www.holocaustforgotten.com...

Originally posted by Bananarama

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
I don't know about six million, but my family personally lost 10 members, and they where in poland.

Six million does seem like a slightly inflated number, it wouldnt surprise me if Six million is the total number of all people killed due to Nazi eugenics.

However I am sure that the Jewish community did suffer considerable loss (a couple of million), enough to make people raising this question continously completely sick.

Whether that is justification for giving the Zionists Palestine to remake Israel and everything that happened since is another discussion entirely. Encouraging Holocaust denial is disgusting simple as, just as disgusting as what israel is doing to the Palestianians and what they are doing to Israeli born innocent citizens in return.

So someone wants to question the numbers, and it is completely disgusting? That's like if someone had 6 million dollars taken from them, then somebody proved it was only 3 million, then saying "who cares, money was taken from me!" While the situations are different in emotions, it doesn't do any favors to exaggerate the number.

Some people just want to know the truth. The number for an objective viewer will not matter as far as the loss for the Jews, but if it matters so much to them than maybe they are using the numbers as more of an excuse to hold over our heads.

I'm going to have to agree. No one is questioning if people were put through a horrible experience and no one is denying holocaust.

What I'm denying is the media playing my emotions so that I can't think with a rational mind. I mean we can cry for people all day long and it isn't going to change a thing. It won't bring back Jews or Africans that had to come across on slave ships loosing there entire family identity on the way. Hell it won't even bring the Beatles back, but I'm not here to cry for these people. I'm here to find the truth as horrible as it might be.

Besides, guess who has the biggest record for killing Jews? It isn't Hitler. It's....are you ready for this? GOD.

God said he would leave so few Jews that a child could count them on one hand.

Deu 32:13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
Deu 32:14 Butter of cows, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.
Deu 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou hast waxed fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God who made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
Deu 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations they provoked him to anger.
Deu 32:17 They sacrificed to devils, not to God; to gods which they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Deu 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
Deu 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end will be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Deu 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Deu 32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend my arrows upon them.
Deu 32:24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
Deu 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
Deu 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men;
Deu 32:27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.
Deu 32:28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

Peace

[edit on 23-12-2009 by letthereaderunderstand]

No, i have never agreed with the number of deaths in the holocaust. I have always thought it was between 1 million and 3 million. But not six million, still a terrible time in history but that doesn't mean we should not question the numbers. Very scary that in Germany you can get jail time for questioning aspects of the holocaust, i will never understand those who completely deny it happened though.

I would be happy to see 1 million names that have Jewish roots, but the biggest list I think was around 200 000. Heck Australia lost that many just fighting the enemy and in a far away land at that, but I guess our losses were fighting the Hun so that makes it ok for them to be dead.

[edit on 23-12-2009 by mazzroth]

Try more like 11,500,000 Jewish people bringing a grand total to an estimated 32.5 - 35 Million overall slaughtered by the Nazi's. of other ethnicities, backgrounds. More then a half million alone were slaughtered during Krystall Nacht!

Why does history conviently forget about the other ethnicites and nationalites?

Muslim Arabs, Africans, Indians, Orientals, gays, the mentally disabled, the paupers and basically anyone who did not fit the Germanic mold to a T.

[edit on 19-1-2010 by TheImmaculateD1]

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand



The six million figure was actually introduced before WWII:

Full Image available here:

Above article was published in the October 31, 1919 edition of The American Hebrew

=================================================


and this in 1921, the New York Times which claimed that "6,000,000" jews in Russia were "facing extermination by massacre."
Source:query.nytimes.com...

Also found 2 original Red Cross letters with number of deaths in each camps; not sure if it's covered here or not:

I agree that it is important to find the truth of what happened. Not only because...well, its important to know history. But also because if the number IS being intentionally inflated, then there is a reason, and it has to do with manipulation of peoples minds, as others on here have stated. This is unacceptable.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Jews were special in that they were basically the only religious group singled out for extermination. .

Well, sorry, but others have dsagreed with your conclusion. The following is a post from another forum some weeks ago:

From Jewish author Max I. Dimont's "Jews, God, and History" (he died in early 1990s):
p. 391 "Of these 12 million victims, 7 million were Christians and 5 million were Jews* -- 1.4 Christians for every Jew. But because the Nazis shoulted 'Kill the Jews', the world blinded itself to the murder of Christians."
p. 397 "During the first five years of the Nazi regime, therefore, most concentation camp inmates were Christians."
p. 409 "The ratio of planned contemplated mass killing was no longer 1.4 Christians for every Jew, but 5.3 Christians for every Jew. Nazi future plans called for the killing of 10 million non-Germanic people every year."

*(footnote added by Dimont p.392)
"The figure usually quoted for the number of Jews murdered by the Nazis is 6,000,000, but facts tend to support a figure of 5,000,000. Justice Jackson at the Nuremberg trials cited 4,5000,000 Jews killed by te Germans. Today, the highest estimate is 5,600,000 the lowest 4,200,000. The difference is accounted for by guessing Jewish losses in territories held by the Soviet Union. Gerlad Reitlinger gives the figure of 5,000,000. 'I believe it does not make the guilt of the living Germans any less if the figure of six million turns out to be an over-estimate,' he says. (The Final Solution, p469) Howard M. Sacher puts the figure at 4,200,000 to 4,600,000 statig that 'the figure of 6,000,000 released at the end of the war has since been discounted.' (The Curse of Modern Jewish History, p.452)"

Yes there were millions of jewish deaths. There were also alot of others put to death. I personally think that if you do not believe this, you are a fool. However, I am also open minded and allow others to believe what they want.

Originally posted by A-E-I-Owned-You
Yes there were millions of jewish deaths. There were also alot of others put to death. I personally think that if you do not believe this, you are a fool. However, I am also open minded and allow others to believe what they want.

You see the problem right there ? If you do not Believe!!!!!!!!

Wake up, the reality is there would not be this kind of controversy if there were not evidence to the contrary. To make a claim such as 6 million died you would have to present names, no one has presented a list of names larger than 400k.

Originally posted by fumanchu
If you are a objective thinker, the number matters, it would be a matter of accuracy and nothing to do with attempting to play down the suffering. Which is the argument you'd get from the emotional who do not have the ability to reason without bias.
[edit on 5-12-2009 by fumanchu]

OK, I consider myself an objective thinker, so let me ask:
Hypothetically, if the real number was found out to be 1,000,000: Then what?

It's an honest question, and I'm hoping for an honest answer.

Originally posted by ATS4dummies

Originally posted by fumanchu
If you are a objective thinker, the number matters, it would be a matter of accuracy and nothing to do with attempting to play down the suffering. Which is the argument you'd get from the emotional who do not have the ability to reason without bias.
[edit on 5-12-2009 by fumanchu]

Hypothetically, if the real number was found out to be 1,000,000: Then what?

That would mean a 600% reduction or miscalculation....that kind of poor math would lose you your job anywhere.

Reply to post by swinggal

Russians had been happily murdering each other for years before, that is the difference. Amongst other things. Including the difference between battlefield attrocity and homefront attrocities. If you see no difference I can't help you. And yes ALL forms of murder are bad but perception is the key.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by mazzroth

Originally posted by ATS4dummies

Originally posted by fumanchu
If you are a objective thinker, the number matters, it would be a matter of accuracy and nothing to do with attempting to play down the suffering. Which is the argument you'd get from the emotional who do not have the ability to reason without bias.
[edit on 5-12-2009 by fumanchu]

Hypothetically, if the real number was found out to be 1,000,000: Then what?
It's an honest question, and I'm hoping for an honest answer.

That would mean a 600% reduction or miscalculation....that kind of poor math would lose you your job anywhere.

:
Mazzroth, no one will lose a job. So let me ask again:
Hypothetically, if the real number was found out to be 1,000,000: Then what?
It's an honest question, and I'm hoping for an honest answer.

[edit on 24-1-2010 by ATS4dummies]

Originally posted by fumanchu
If you are a objective thinker, the number matters, it would be a matter of accuracy and nothing to do with attempting to play down the suffering. Which is the argument you'd get from the emotional who do not have the ability to reason without bias.

By my estimations, looking at it objectively and without emotion, and in rough figures, 1.75 million died purely for being Jewish (the majority of these were of Central or Northern European regions, some Balkans), 5 million died for being ethnic Polish (of which about 2 million were also Jewish), and a further 3.5 million were murdered for being Slavic, of which, the majority were of the Jewish faith. In the East and Poland, it should also be noted that those who were not Jewish could be sent back to Germany for the Slave Labour programmes. Many died there and are not recorded in the figures for the mass killings. Others, once liberated, were sent back to their, then Soviet occupied countries, where in the majority of cases they found themselves treated as traitors, for having worked, albeit as slaves, for the enemy, and sent to the Gulag. The very reason we have so little supporting evidence of the mass murders in the East is because it was locked away behind the Iron Curtain and the survivors and witnesses were effectively silenced.

In terms of the Reich, the majority of the deaths towards the end of the war prevented, post-war, a great number of law suits in the attempt to regain property and assets seized when the Jews rights to ownership were removed. Many large industrial concerns bought out Jewish businesses for peanuts. By wiping out entire families, such concerns could be assuaged. Plus while no real laws existed to protect civilians in the course of war, laws did exist to prevent slavery. All those companies that had used slave labour had breached International Law.

With the murders in the East on the otherhand the driving force was the removal of Bolshevism which in the German mindset was inextricably linked to Jewishness. Though profiteering was still a factor.

reply to post by ATS4dummies


I don't think personally the 1 million would change anything now ( for what its worth that number is a lot closer to the truth than 6 Million ). 1 Million people murdered by the German Reich or the 18 Million Russians who died actually fighting and trying to defeat them.

Because the Jews really never fought back to any extent ( barring perhaps the Bielski brothers made famous by Defiance ) and are always portrayed as innocent victims or treated as sub human they got all the sympathy from the West. To the point were eventually given a Homeland - Israel which in effect has become the Worlds largest single political problem ever since.

So I guess in retrospect perhaps 1 million Deaths would not of been enough to tug on the "Heart Strings" in comparison to the 12 million Poles and Gypsy's who were also persecuted by the Germans.

But now to rewrite history only has value if this kind of event happens again, perhaps we can prevent it happening or perhaps in modern times we would be smarter than allowing political maneuvering using an atrocity like this to gain land, displace Millions of Arabs and cause more unrest in the region.