The Church of Climatology

reply to post by endisnighe

I'm with you on pollution problems as well... thing is, pollution, and global warming are in such lock-step it seems that if we try and fix one maybe we fix the other without even trying.

Any money that goes towards researching alternative/clean fuels seems to me ultimately helps solve the pollution problem. Continuing work on the potential of fusion as a fuel source helps solve the nuclear waste issue.

Focusing on slow food, and organic farming, and becoming localvores helps solve the throw away packaging society, and helps solve the agrobusiness issues and the illnesses that seem to come with it.

Whaddya think?

KE

How do you, the members of the Church of Ignorance explain the observed warming of our planet? Let me guess, just a natural phenomenon?

I could maybe agree, if it wasn't for the fact that the observed warming is 10^something faster than ever before in the history of our planet. Then there's the other inconvenient truth that us humans started pumping massive amounts of CO2 to our atmosphere when this rapid never before seen warming started. What else.. oh yeah basic understanding of greenhouse effect and greenhouse gases.

What do you have? The Sun? It's a bit of a coincidence that out of the blue (just the same time humans started pumping those gases to the atmosphere) after what 4,5 billion years our star took some weird change and started heating our planet faster than ever before. Could the advocates of "it's just the Sun" please put forward a theory what happened to the Sun?

What else? Somebody here was talking about pole shift. Guess what. Poles have always shifted. Why the never before seen warming now, but not ever before in the 4 billion year history of our planet?

Seriously..

Somebody is bound to say that so what if concentration of CO2 increases like a 100 parts per million. It's so little. Well guess what, when we released CFCs to the atmosphere the amounts were like 10^15-20 smaller, yet the effects were freaking HUGE.

[edit on 4-12-2009 by rhinoceros]

reply to post by endisnighe

It always comes down to taxes. Listen, taking public transit, buying organic, etc. are ways I tax myself (it costs more for me to take the subway and shop at the farmers market) and I'm okay with that.
If the government asks me if I'm willing to give up some of my hard earned cash to support research into alternative fuels, nuclear fusion etc, I'm in.
Asking me for money to help clean up Hanford, and other superfund sites that we created, I'll do that to0 (snippily, to borrow a phrase).
A few bucks to help save the bald eagle, the manatee, sure, no problem.
After all, it's nothing compared to the percentage of my taxes that are currently going to rapacious bankers and two wars (one of which I support).


[edit on 4-12-2009 by kenochs]

reply to post by kenochs


Actually, I believe you hit the crux of the problem. Globalization is the boon to mankind.

Why do we need to ship such huge amounts of finished product from one side of the world to the other? I know why, so huge mega corporations can make billions a year.

Why does the US ship beef to other countries and we ship beef into the US? I have always tried to buy local. Up until my last car purchase I always bought used. Keeps the money local.

Local foods is almost a must for me. Actually over the last 2 years I have tried not to step foot into a Franchise restaraunt.

Local community/state commerce is a must in this stage of the game but what is happening? The exact opposite.

Russia proved mega farms and agribussiness is not the right model. But of course we think we can do it better.

reply to post by rhinoceros


Just one question. One. How did the last ice age end?

Warmest time ever. You are flaming my thread. Please knock it off.


edit to add-hey, can I use your time machine? And by your very actions on this thread you are proving my point. Thank you.

[edit on 12/4/2009 by endisnighe]

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by rhinoceros

 

Just one question. One. How did the last ice age end?

[edit on 12/4/2009 by endisnighe]

You mean the last glacial period when IE Finland was covered in ice? It ended, because the climate warmed. DOH!

p.s. That warming was orders of magnitudes slower than the one we're seeing now. For example do you have any idea how fast glaciers are now retreating all around the world?

[edit on 4-12-2009 by rhinoceros]

reply to post by rhinoceros


Where is the proof of this claim that the warming was slower then than it is now? That is what I want to know.

Let me do a little disclosure here, I believed in Man Made global warming at one time, until I started researching it. Then i became clear that there is no evidence or proof that man is causing the globe to warm.

So what I want to see is hard proof backed up by data and methods. Provide all the data the methods along with experiments to replicate the hypothesis and I will say, "Okay man is causing the global to warm." Until people can present the hard proof with verifiable and repeatable results for even us heretics to test, I'm going to continue to call it what it is a Religion.

reply to post by rhinoceros

I could maybe agree, if it wasn't for the fact that the observed warming is 10^something faster than ever before in the history of our planet.

10^something?

OK, how about 10^0.001? Or did you mean 10^100? Come on, 10^something is not a numerical value, nor is it even an approximation.

Then there's the other inconvenient truth that us humans started pumping massive amounts of CO2 to our atmosphere when this rapid never before seen warming started. What else.. oh yeah basic understanding of greenhouse effect and greenhouse gases

Let me simply answer this with a re-post from another thread, Great series debunking GW-denial pseudo-science, my post on page 3:

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas in that it will absorb three narrow bands in the IR spectrum, these being approximately 2.7, 4.5, and 15 microns if I am not mistaken. The bandwidth of these appear to be less than half a micron, although exact data seems to be well-buried amidst the cries of gloom and doom. That covers a very small portion of the total IR spectrum.

The drastic increase you mention is 100 ppmv (380 ppmv - 280 ppmv) over a period of from 30-50 years (depending on who you ask). 100 ppmv is 0.01% of the total volume of the atmosphere. That means if your home is around 2000 square feet, you've got an extra 0.0316 ounce of carbon dioxide in the entire house. If we keep increasing the concentration at the same rate (assuming the 30 year timespan), you will will have a whole ounce of extra carbon dioxide in that home in 960 years... in the year 2969.

Yeah, that's drastic...

Care to dispute any of that?

Somebody is bound to say that so what if concentration of CO2 increases like a 100 parts per million. It's so little.

Wow, you're psychic!

Well guess what, when we released CFCs to the atmosphere the amounts were like 10^15-20 smaller, yet the effects were freaking HUGE.

Care to read a chemistry book? I know it's boring and all that. But you might actually realize we're talking about two totally different things between CO2 and CFCs. Who here is lacking a basic understanding again?

I mean, I have heard of people comparing apples to oranges before, but this is more like comparing apples to Mitsubishi's!

TheRedneck

reply to post by rhinoceros



OK i'll Ask again.

How did the earth warm up after the last ice age without significant natural global warming?

If you can explain I may change my mind.

Seems most "believers" may be victims of Coercive Persuasion thats a form of mind control, look it up, google it.

I am 40+ as well. I remember the Global Cooling debacle.

Or was it ?

Cheers

Originally posted by Toecutter.
reply to post by rhinoceros

 

I am 40+ as well. I remember the Global Cooling debacle.

Or was it ?

Cheers

I remember that, as well.

Which begs the question:

IF - and I mean IF - the current warming trend (if true) turned out to be human-caused, perhaps humans are just preventing another ice age. And wouldn't another ice age really be worse than the predictions for what global warming might cause?

reply to post by endisnighe


I see you didn't read my post carefully at all. It's okay though.

it happens,

take care of your planet! thanks.

I have an open challenge to anyone who can provide a link to a published scientific evidence which disproves AGW - a single link.

This challenge has never, ever been met. If it was met - there would be no debate - you would all be right in your ridiculous assumptions - cheers.

Originally posted by audas
I have an open challenge to anyone who can provide a link to a published scientific evidence which disproves AGW - a single link.

This challenge has never, ever been met. If it was met - there would be no debate - you would all be right in your ridiculous assumptions - cheers.

I raise your challenge with this challenge, provide me with a link to a scientific paper that proves anything.

But for fun and games, which you seem to be doing instead of addressing my thread.

Here is a link with quotes of PROOF of Global Cooling. How bout them apples.

Man Made Global Cooling no wait GLOBAL WARMING!

I raise your propaganda on Global Warming with propaganda on Global Cooling.

How about addressing the thread instead of spouting YOUR RELIGION

THis is not about "religion" it is about ideology !

There are thousands ideologies, small one for your way life, and big one for the country.

You are right climatology is a religion , an ideology.

But the american dream, the american way of life, and the us ultraliberalism/globalisation/global empire(and global conquest) are also ideologies.

This is a problem in the society i don't think we can stop a big fire in the society , with an other big fire : this is stupid.


(fire : ie libido)



In fact : what is under the ideologies ? (and religion) There are men who want to get the power in the society , and that mean the power over the people : i don't think it is a democracy


But this is used by Al Gore, or Michael Moore !

You know this is also a marxist way of thinking : people must be manipulated , converted ! ( and i don't say that conservative don't used also this strategy)

reply to post by psychederic


Star for you for seeing through the VEIL.

Yes, both sides of the same coin use it and saying that if the Repubs were not in power now this would not go through is obfuscation or at the very least denial.

Star for you.

Like I like to say, governments of the world know two things-Tax and Control.

What a better way to instigate taxation and control than to get the masses to ASK for it?

I allways say : 'Ideology is an instrument of power' over you

But people even don't understand where are the ideology, or some are cynic, or hypocrite

Louis Althusser: "Ideology is an organic part, as such, any social totality. It is as if human societies could not exist without these specific training, these systems of representations (various levels) that are ideologies. Human societies secrete ideology as the element and the atmosphere even indispensable to their breath, their life history "For Marx (1965), Paris, La Découverte, 2005," Marxism and Humanism "IV p.238.

reply to post by psychederic


Yes, I was reading through a thread here the other day and people were in a discussion on individualism compared to collectivism.

What I feel our world's governments and the people behind the veil are trying to crush individualism through these ideologies.

And people like me, with the A type personalities and others with not quite so individualistic tendencies but still love their freedoms are beginning to see it has almost become a war.

We all know that through control the collectivism must destroy people like me or convert them through all of these ideologies.

That is where they will have a hell of a time in the US. This country is founded based on individualism and the majority detest collectivism seeing it as an almost evil framework.

Thanks for the side discussion.

Yes but are you totally aware ?

Is it collectivism vs individualism ? ( We need both in fact )

FOr the exemple : where do you place the fear of insecurity used by politics to be elected ? This uses the individualism and this is totally the right wing psychology, or even further a fascist strategy : but this is ideology.

psychological research on ideology. Any use of ideology make a society to become a totalitarism

I know this is difficult : but we need not to think in term of ideology ( way of thinking of others, and instrument of power over the population ).

And i don't say : don't use your ego, just don't use the "believe system" and normal way of thinking. And know truely yourself (maybe sometimes the problem is not others)


[edit on 5-12-2009 by psychederic]


"We all know that through control the collectivism must destroy people like me or convert them through all of these ideologies. "

This has allready be done with "disciplinary institution", like school.

we are brain washed since we born to life !

[edit on 5-12-2009 by psychederic]

reply to post by psychederic


Okay, you are bringing right wing into it and also fascism.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9bc8ac6206b5.jpg[/atsimg]

I believe any ism ends in a Tyrannical government. It always ends bad because the people in power always become corrupt.

Edit to add-also besides corruption-people become sloth and ignorant, ask 100 people about anything in the DI or Constitution and hell, I would be surprised if 2% could answer the simplest of questions. Of course, like you said this is intentional. We are supposed to be sovereign governors of this country, NOT FRACKING SERFS OR CORPORATE ENTITIES.

The US had a good run.

[edit on 12/5/2009 by endisnighe]

reply to post by endisnighe


The world has a good run.

The only solution is that individual get more power. ( first "military", then the politic, and economic will come)

I mean military because ( as you know us history ) : this is better when the people has power and they do what they want : then come temporary moment of freedom.

The rules was simple (last centuries) : even with an army you can't manage to control the individual ( so our societies invented ideology and politics etc... ).

Today : they want to control us physically ( ) : and their army and policemen are more powerfull than the people. They allready controle the mass psychologically , ANd the zombies are everywhere.

The exemple is : today war is in the sky : people cannot fight a planes and their air strike (today's military strategy since WWII). They just can resist with guerrila techniques.

We , the individual need such technical power. I don't think they want us to get them : but is there an other real solution to continue having real freedom ?

"
I believe any ism ends in a Tyrannical government. It always ends bad because the people in power always become corrupt. "

I advice you , and anyone to understand the systemic science.

They use it on you with marketing, and political marketing.

Then you will understand that there are systemic violence, or in other word : structural violence, in the system.
And you can only discover them : if you think systemic / globally.

THe corruption is because of how the system is designed. You understanded it, but go further if you want to resolve this systemic problem.

What may corrupt politics ? Money, power, self ideology, or any ideology.

Don't you think it is because of the form of society ? Because this is not a democracy : but a representative republic.

[edit on 5-12-2009 by psychederic]

On the financial crisis : this is also systemic, but they just want you to think we will continue one more time. When a system shut down like this every 35 years, there is a big problem : and we should change our economic system.
(not for capitalism, more regulation, or communism)

Open your mind : We can let the people choose the economic system in their town (or locally), use the money they want : and # the state. And they can get the politic power in their town : this is democracy.



[edit on 5-12-2009 by psychederic]

[edit on 5-12-2009 by psychederic]