Americans incompetent to fill jobs, corporations must import foreigner workers to meet demand

After two years of steady job losses amounting to over 7 million jobs lost, after two years of failing to find jobs for the new graduates adding another 3.6 million to the job deficit, after two years of steady decline of the nation, with Phds competing for Mcjobs, globalist corporations (hard to think of any corporation as "American" anymore) still claim that they can't find enough "qualified" Americans to fill just about any job you can think of, and are asking for increases in the number of foreigners they can import:

www.cnbc.com...

...H1B Visa Reform

The United States has succeeded for decades in attracting the best and brightest from around the world to attend American universities and seek jobs in American companies.

But today America’s immigration system is broken.

Our H1B visa laws make it exceedingly difficult for foreign-born entrepreneurs to work in specialty occupations (such as science and engineering jobs) in the United States. Of the 163,000 applications for H1Bs received in 2008, the law allowed for just 65,000 approvals.

Duke University researcher Vivek Wadhwa reports that immigrants founded more than half of all Silicon Valley start-ups created in the last decade. These immigrant-founded companies employed 450,000 workers and generated $52 billion in revenue in 2005. However, according to a recent study by Wadhwa for the Kauffman Foundation, many foreign-born entrepreneurs educated in the United States are deciding to return to their home countries to work owing to challenges with their H1Bs...

To qualify for H1B, H2B, TN, and work visas, an employer must certify that there are no qualified American workers available to fill the positions. Most companies using them make little or no effort to comply with this requirement, and the Immigration Service doesn't bother to follow up, indeed, sends clear signals not to worry about it, so abuses are rampant:

www.workpermit.com...

U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has announced that for a 120-day period they will accept H-1B petitions filed without Department of Labor certified Labor Condition Applications (LCAs).

They'd rather employ HIV-positive foreigners than Americans:

www.latimes.com...

A stamp in Heidemarie Kremer's passport reveals her health status as HIV-positive.
Because of the disease, Kremer -- a native of Germany -- has been barred from becoming a legal resident of the United States. She and her two children are fighting possible deportation, and their plans for the future are on hold. But that soon may change.
This month, the federal government cleared the way for HIV-positive foreigners to visit the country and apply for green cards, lifting a bar that has been in place for more than two decades....But Mark Krikorian, executive director for the Center for Immigration Studies, said the decision to remove HIV as a bar was based on politics, not science. "It was clearly a politically motivated move," Krikorian said, adding that the decision could have real consequences -- more HIV cases and more costs. "It is extra healthcare spending that we wouldn't have otherwise."

An analysis by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention showed that in the first year, an estimated 4,275 people infected with HIV could come into the U.S. at a cost of about $25,000 each.

However, employing them and actually paying them are two different things:

www.businessweek.com...

America's High-Tech Sweatshops...In recent months workers have alleged mistreatment while working for body shops in the offices of Qualcomm (QCOMM) and JPMorgan Chase (JPM). In a civil suit filed in May and a complaint to the U.S. Labor Dept., Prasad Nair charged that Unified Business Technologies got him an H-1B visa in 2007 by saying he would work in the company's Troy (Mich.) offices and receive $60,000 a year as a programmer and analyst. Instead, UBT sent him to work at chipmaker Qualcomm's offices in San Diego, where the cost of living and prevailing wage for such a position are much higher. The 32-year-old alleged UBT made unlawful pay deductions, delayed payments, failed to pay overtime, and postponed health benefits for his family. David Blanchard, Nair's attorney, says he struggled "paycheck to paycheck" to take care of his wife and 9-month-old daughter and regularly ate at Burger King to save money...In another complaint to the Labor Dept., Benly Ebenezer alleges he was underpaid or not paid at all while working in the Manhattan offices of JPMorgan. In the complaint, Ebenezer, who has two master's degrees in computer science, was brought to the U.S. on an H-1B visa by Itek Consulting in 2005. Ebenezer says Itek paid him about 10% less than the promised $50,000 a year while he worked at the bank, and then stopped paying him altogether between December 2006 and February 2007. The Labor Dept. ruled in Ebenezer's favor in May. He declined to be interviewed because his situation remains "sensitive."

The phone number for Itek is now disconnected. JPMorgan declined to comment on the case.

www.immigrationdirect.com...



www.epi.org...

Madame Chairman, I am Ross Eisenbrey, Vice President of the Economic Policy Institute, a non-partisan research institute and think tank dedicated to advancing policies to ensure broadly shared prosperity. Thank you for inviting me to testify today.

The H-2B non-agricultural guest worker program has been the fastest growing and most problematic immigration program in our recent history. In FY 1993, fewer than 10,000 H-2B visas were issued; nearly 130,000 were issued in FY2007. This expansion is alarming because the H-2B program undermines the wages and working conditions of U.S. workers; creates dependencies among businesses for docile foreign workers with no voice, no bargaining power and few rights; and allows abuses that most Americans would denounce if they were aware of them. If our nation is to have a guest worker program for unskilled occupations – and it is far from clear that such a program is necessary or desirable – it must be reformed in significant ways, including at least the following reforms:

1. The right of U.S. workers to learn about, apply for, and take jobs offered to H-2B workers must be strengthened and enforced.
2. The wages and benefits offered or paid to U.S. workers by employers petitioning for H-2B workers, or the wages and benefits paid to H-2B workers themselves, must never be less than the prevailing wages and benefits, and never less than 150% of the federal minimum wage, even if it would not apply to U.S. workers.
3. H-2B workers must be allowed to organize unions and bargain collectively.
4. H-2B workers must have enforceable contract rights, access to legal representation, access to an effective administrative complaint process or to the federal courts, and protection against retaliation.

Without these reforms, the H-2B program should be capped far below its current level of 66,000 visas a year, or eliminated.

I could go on, but I think the picture's pretty clear.

Please join me in demanding an end to these programs until unemployment drops to a reasonable level. Us tax dollars should not subsidize the loss of jobs to foreigners.

Until we can employ our own, we don't need to import more foreign workers.

I can tell you from the experience of giving countless interviews, that the state of American talent (in my part of the country) in my industry is pretty abysmal. I hate hiring people on work visa's simply because I know many people who need a job. We have tried lowering our hiring standards, but it is still a challenge, especially when our customers don't care about who does the work, so long as it is done right, on time, and on budget.

The solution is, of course, to put trade education back into schools. Cut out this standardized testing crap and actually start teaching kids to compete and succeed in the world.

Well, these programs are not SUBSIDIZED with Federal Funding in any way. The US Government is not encouraging companies to hire foreigners on Work Visas, nor are they funding companies to do such. All they are doing already, is limiting the number of Work Visas available.

I disagree that these numbers aren't being enforced by Immigration (USCIS). Under the new direction of Homeland Security these past few years, they have dramatically ramped up enforcement efforts.

However, I think this speaks very clear and loudly of the reason why so many Americans are unemployed currently.

It has little to do with Immigrants (illegal or otherwise) or Foreigners on Work Visas taking their jobs, as much as it has to do with Americans being under-educated (even with a PhD) by comparison, and demanding too high of pay for the work that they do. Americans demand Benefit Packages, Paid Healthcare, Paid Vacations, Perks, and Competitive Salaries while expecting to do the bare minimum required to earn such.

If people really cared about WHY this is a problem then they should have cared enough to put Education first and foremost as a priority in this Nation, not being satisfied with being 30th most educated Nation in the world.

If people really cared about WHY this is a problem then they should have cared enough to take pride in the work that they do, and work harder, smarter, and more creatively than anyone else, rather than work less, slack off, and care less as long as they got a paycheck if they showed up for (non)work.

Now, you have even Bill Gates demanding of Congress that the number of H1B and H2B be increased dramatically because Microsoft is hurting and almost crippled due to US College Grads in Computer Science being next to worthless except in Beer-Bong competitions and modding their Computer Cases or wiring their XBox360 to their HDTV.

Sure, I'm all for putting Americans back to work, but if I were an employer I'd want to hire the candidate who was the most qualified, the most able, the most reliable, and the most devoted of the bunch...and frankly that is more likely to be an Immigrant or Foreigner from the other 29 Nations with better Educations than the U.S.

At this point, it just seems like more whining from the self-entitled U.S. Workers Camp to do something about it rather than do something about it themselves (like get a *REAL* education, or become competitive in the Job Marketplace, or develop a stronger Work-Ethic). I'm sorry if I can't be any more sympathetic...but although I would be hating life if I were replaced by a Hindi at my job, I would understand my employer's position, knowing ultimately that I am to blame.

reply to post by rogerstigers


What field are you in, where are you located and what do you pay?

I've found that H1B and H2B workers tend to get paid less than prevailing wages.

I encourage people to finish the sentence:

"We can't find American workers willing to work."

The complete sentence goes:

"We can't find American workers willing to work for what we're willing to pay them."

The reason is that what corporations are willing to pay isn't covering expenses, especially educational ones.

You seem to be saying you find your all fellow Americans uneducated and unemployable. Of course, you yourself don't fit that mold. Please.

How many of your employees drain the money from our economy and send it home? How many use our taxpayer supported services?

You seem to be part of the problem.

I tend to agree with the preceeding. Not that there aren't bus-loads of marginally qualified Americans roaming around out there but I think this is driven more by economics than competency. Corporations are looking to find foreign workers who are willing to take far less in terms of pay and benefits for the same job.

We could do the same thin to the unions. There are lots of people who would take union jobs at a fraction of what the union contracts pay them. But we don't.

In my industry it has laways been a problem that companies --- especially the larger ones --- dump senior staff in favor of younger people who they can pay less. Yes, they're getting less experienced people but they really don't care. They'd rather get-by with the less expensive, less experienced staff than have to pay the more senior people.

reply to post by fraterormus


Working Americans demand too much?

Executives giving themselves millions in bonusses while shipping jobs overseas and crashing the economy with their various too-complex-to-understand financial schemes is ok, though?

Sorry, ain't buying it.

If American Phds are so worthless, why do people come here for an education?

I fail to understand the loathing and disrespect a lot of americans have for their fellows. Everyone's a lazy, ignorant bum but them it would seem. How anyone can get an education here, be successful, then claim that US educations are worthless, Americans are too ignorant to be employable, is beyond me. Are you claiming you are so special, so natively intelligent that you alone out of the educational system are qualified for a well-paying job?

That's insulting, as well as dead wrong.

Sigh. Another catch-22.

The problem is that as long as we allow companies to search throughout the world to find the talent they claim not to be able to find in the US -- nobody will bother doing anything about the lack of education in the US.

It will not be until the corporations get so desparate for workers, and are unable to simply import them, that they too will demand improvements in education.

Are you a company that wants to hire a foreign worker? Good, than in order to do so you must FIRST contribute something (program, money, classes, etc.) to AMERICANS.

It will not be until companies in this country can not operate at full potential that they will bother to do anything about education. They will not care one bit about where their workers come from so long as they get them and the US keeps making money.

reply to post by lpowell0627


So the answer is too let more american companies fail while waiting for the U.S to catch up. I don't have that kind of time. I need to fill a position ASAP. If I have to hire a higher qualified, more motivated foreigner, I will.

I read your post in depth. To put it in few words. That day is not too far when McDonald jobs would require PhD degrees. On the part of the employee, is it worth to invest time, money and energy to get PhD in order for you to work in McDonald for the wages of cashier or other regular workers. Demand that employers put on Americans is ridiculous. Their complain would be only valid if they work shoulder to shoulder with their workers for comparison and this should be by surprise. I worked in the Industry and I watched bosses. All I heard that they were lazy M...F..rs. They all love to push others. Hypocrisy is very high in this country. It is the responsibility of the Government to protect its citizens. I have seen the government subsidizing the wages of employers. They give it exotic names such as Research and Development or Training etc. etc. How much time a person need packaging Coffee can as training. A person with BS degree was doing it for 6 months. When he questioned the employer, the employer got rid of him and got another person from unemployment office. Employer was using the labor for free. This is going-on on different levels. Many members of congress employ house maid from Mexico and other countries because they don't want to pay the proper wages. Question comes in when these employees get sick how they pay for their treatment . This is where medicaid comes in. Wall Mart employees in Ohio are 27% of total medicaid applicants. Government workers not doing their job. They are there only to collect pay cheques every two weeks. Consequently we all have to suffer.

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
reply to post by lpowell0627

 

So the answer is too let more american companies fail while waiting for the U.S to catch up. I don't have that kind of time. I need to fill a position ASAP. If I have to hire a higher qualified, more motivated foreigner, I will.

Absolutely not! Hence, the whole contribute something first. Obviously, the work has to be done while "americans" are catching up. however, once you hire whom you want, you never turn back to help future potential American workers. Which creates a vacuum.

Now, if companies are forced to contribute to the betterment of Americans' education, it will stop the vacuum. Otherwise, in another 50 years or less, the percentage of american workers versus foreign workers will be even less.

No country will be able to survive if eventually more than 60% of its workers are imported. Which is exactly what is going to happen if this cycle doesn't end.

Some of those corporations are led by International elites. While I do think more needs to be done about the state of the public schools, part of the problem is money ;the snooty corportions never pay the full share of their taxes, nor do they want most children to attain basic literacy much less become highly educated.

The little research I have done on education has taught me our elites (the same who complain about the quality of our workers) are the same people who undermined education. They are responsible for turning colleges into sports entertainment centers ,and highschools into football academies. When the highschools turned out uneducated students the state schools started penalyzing Asian students who were prepared for college.

The bottom line is many of those bussiness men are leaches. They do not have any loyalty to this country or any other. They regard fellow Americans as threats and they undermine Americans by sobotaging the education system. Even if we did have a real education system, they would not hire Americans as long as they could pick and choose from the world's population. I wish they would make good on their citizen of the world philosophy and leave America.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by eradown]

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
reply to post by lpowell0627

 

So the answer is too let more american companies fail while waiting for the U.S to catch up. I don't have that kind of time. I need to fill a position ASAP. If I have to hire a higher qualified, more motivated foreigner, I will.

By "more motivated" I presume you mean willing to work for less?

Do you pay health benefits for your foreign workers? Or do you expect the uS taxpayer to pay it?

And I'll argue the point that the entire US educational system is such a complete and abysmal failure that out millions of graduates each year, none are competent and well-educated.

reply to post by apacheman


I'm not talking entry level positions. I need a qualified controller as well as experienced AP and AR clerks. And yes we do offer a substantial benefits package. But I am located in Amsterdam. And when I was in the states I hired a british controller who still holds the position. And a Filipino AP clerk. They were the best qualified.

Originally posted by apacheman

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
reply to post by lpowell0627

 

And I'll argue the point that the entire US educational system is such a complete and abysmal failure that out millions of graduates each year, none are competent and well-educated.

I agree that Americans are becoming educated inspite of bad schools. It takes an incredible sacrifice for middle class families to foot the bill for a private University. What the overcrouded public Universities have put none athletic students through is incredible. The problem is we have nutcases at the top pinacle who really want most Americans to be poor and uneducated. They aren't exactly eager to hire Americans who have become educated beyond their class.

Originally posted by apacheman

Working Americans demand too much?

If American Phds are so worthless, why do people come here for an education?

I fail to understand the loathing and disrespect a lot of americans have for their fellows. Everyone's a lazy, ignorant bum but them it would seem. How anyone can get an education here, be successful, then claim that US educations are worthless, Americans are too ignorant to be employable, is beyond me. Are you claiming you are so special, so natively intelligent that you alone out of the educational system are qualified for a well-paying job?

That's insulting, as well as dead wrong.

Yes, working Americans demand too much. We have to somehow pay off our College Loans which even with a high paying job we won't be able to pay off until we are 60. We have to somehow make the minimum payments on our average of $22,000 of Consumer Debt. We have to somehow make enough to pay for Johnny's and Jill's College Education even though we haven't paid off our own yet. We have to somehow compete with the Jonses who just bought 2 new BMWs and are vacationing in the Hamptons. We have to somehow pay the monthly Mortgage for the 3 homes we own, all of which are 6x bigger than the single house our parents lived in. We somehow must have enough discretionary income to afford all the "necessities" that we can to live the American dream...a Car, Car Insurance, Gas, Electricity, a monthly Cellphone Bill twice as expensive as your parent's Mortgage Payment, Cable TV, Broadband Internet, Movies, Restaurants, Concerts, Plays, et cetera.

Face it...like it or not, our Government isn't the only ones in America over-extended on their Credit Line. We the People are so far in Debt that we aren't just broke, we are permanently indentured to servitude to that Debt. The only way we can keep from drowning is to keep demanding a life-preserver from our Employers to keep us afloat in our Sea of Debt for another month. The further in Debt we get, the more we demand from our Employers. Unless an Employer is Co-Dependent, eventually they are going to stop trying to rescue those that aren't willing to rescue themselves.

As far as people coming to the U.S. to go to school...are you kidding me? Sure, that might be the case with Yale or M.I.T., but not in general. Out of the 550,000 foreign students attending U.S. Universities, these are students from India, followed by China and then South Korea to study primarily Business Administration or Economics, with Law degrees coming next. Sadly, Capitalism and Legal Process are all that we have left to offer the world.

As far as those fields that have been a boon to our Economy in the past couple decades, a recent study by the Campaign for College Opportunity and IHELP (Technical Difficulties: Meeting California's Workforce Needs in the Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math (STEM) Fields) showed that we’d need a 90% upswing in people graduating with degrees in Science, Technology, Math or Engineering to keep up with all the new jobs being created in those disciplines. Without that 90% upswing, then all those new jobs being created in those fields will go to foreigners on Work Visas, or to immigrants.

The statement "Americans are too ignorant to be employable, is beyond me." I think sums it up quite well. Can you not see the irony in your own statement?

The fact of the matter is that Americans would rather look for a hand-out or a hand-up rather than get a little dirty digging themselves out of the hole where they are now all on their own. When the Timber Industry started drying up, the Timber Industry pointed blame at Spotted Owls, Endangered Species Act of 1973, and the EPA, rather than modify their business model to remain competitive in a growing global marketplace. When Mills closed one after another the Timber Workers cried out for Federal Help rather than look for a job in another field. When the Federal Government offered to provide them training in another field at the Taxpayer's expense, they didn't want it. They wanted a hand-out because they were displaced by companies that weren't competitive...because they didn't help their companies become competitive. They got fat and lazy on high paying jobs and didn't want to work harder for less pay doing something else...they wanted their old jobs back or nothing at all. We see the same thing happening with the Automotive Industry and displaced Auto Workers. It's hard to be sympathetic when you offer them a helping hand-up instead of a hand-out and they turn it down like a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum.

For better or for worse we chose a Capitalistic Economic Model. We have bullied the rest of the world to adopt that same Capitalistic Economic Model or else fear our Military might. When even Communist China beats us at Capitalism we cry "Foul!" Why? Capitalism is the penultimate form of Darwinism. It is sink or swim. It is live or die. In Capitalism it is not the strongest that survive, but the richest...or those that are the most creative, most cunning, most unscrupulous, most devoted, most selfish who rise from the bottom to the top. We enjoy Capitalism as long as we are the ones that are successful and rich, but when we fail at Capitalism we blame it on everyone else but ourselves. Capitalism is a cruel beast that is unforgiving. All it takes is one mistake to be back at the bottom. However, that's the American way, right? Love it or leave it!

Seriously, I work 60-80 hours a week (non of which is Paid OT). I spend another 30-40 hours a week expanding my Skill Set (or updating it) studying Technical Manuals just to remain relevant to both my Job and to my Job Market. I work for a quarter of what the average Salary is for my field. After Court Ordered Child Support, I make below the Federal Poverty Level. I haven't taken a vacation in the 25 years since I first started working at age 14. I do not even work in the field that I went to College for! I understand fully well that there is no such thing as "Job Security" and will fight tooth and nail to keep my low-paying job that I hate day in and day out, just so I can squeak out a below poverty existence...And, if I were to lose my job, I would just try that much harder to increase my Skill Set and work smarter than the competition to win it back!

Once upon a time that is what made America strong. You didn't need compensation for what you did, but did what you did because it was what was required of you. If your boss asked you to scrub the toilet then you did such, you didn't tell them that it wasn't in your Job Description or that it was against Union Regulations. Likewise employers would be called to do the same in the Marketplace. If the Immigrants across the street were making a superior product for less than you were, then they'd either find a way to make an even better product, or make it cheaper, or just go out of business.

The moment one stops taking personal Accountability for their situation, then they are already doomed to be a casualty of Capitalism as they have become too lazy....because those who aren't complaining are far too busy to bother complaining, but are rather doing something about their situation to prevent being yet another victim in this Dog-Eat-Dog Economy. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else, or that every other American is lazy. I'm just saying that those complaining about "Dey Took R Jobs!" wouldn't be complaining if they were actually doing something to keep them (Ergo: They are lazy). So, not all Americans are lazy, just the most vocal 1% of the 12% Unemployed in America are lazy. The rest of us are busy doing the American/Capitalistic thing by taking it upon ourselves to get a job and keep it to bother complaining about it.

There is a silver lining. The third worlders in management are not pig headed about hiring educated Americans. The back door is always open.

reply to post by fraterormus


So I take you belong to the bankster class of people?

Most Americans don't own one home, much less three.

Most Americans don't have a used BMW, much less two new ones.

Most Americans have a higher opinion of their fellow Americans.

Most of what you wrote is erroneous.

We can't produce enough engineers and scientists to fill all the new jobs? What new jobs? Where have you been the last two years?

You are defintely part of the problem.

You also need to look at what is happening to engineering at the University level in this country. Seems like there are fewer universities offering Engineering as a degree plan when there should be more universities offering Engineering. Civil engineering in some of the technical Universities has been turned into environmental engineering. Water safety and testing really should belong to chemistry. Whose money is turning our state Universities into social worker training centers? Those who are deliberately dumbing Americans down(elites) are to blame in my opinion.



[edit on 3-12-2009 by eradown]

I recall a thread by Animal a while back, about his experience in engineering school, as far as far more foreigners being enrolled in US Engineering school than Americans.

I too am an engineer and I encountered the very same.
I had even attended one of the top 10 High Schools in the US and still, the Taiwanese, Indians, ,Iranians and Saudis with their British and Swiss boarding school educations consistently were setting the grading curve.
Granted , these were the creme de la creame, from the wealthiest families from their countries but stilll.... it was a direct reflection
on what we're seeing today.

Meanwhile the majority of Americans were dropping out like flies and switching their majors to Business school.

The majority of skilled US jobs lost have been in the manufacturing sector for years now. I hate to say it , but that's why Obama didn't want to allow GM AND Chrysler to fail. Its one of the last strongholds of manufacturing in the United States as well as millions of jobs.

IT would have put even more Americans on the welfare rolls and multiplied the foreclosures and recession ten fold if not more.

Its not only GM or Chrysler themselves, but all of the parts suppliers who provide jobs to millions of Americans in the Auto industry.
Providing Axles, Transmissions, Tires , brake rotors, batteries, fasteners, glass, Radios, speakers .... these are all outsourced by the car manufacturers providing millions of jobs.

One also has to realize this but these foreign students were/are also studying in a foreign country in a Foreign language as well. Whereas in the US Americans haven't even mastery of American English let alone a second language !

How many times have I seen "Loose" and "Lose" misconstrued for example here on ATS, by Americans who grew up with English as their native language ?

Its Sad but merely a reflection on a society raised not on the avocation of reading and learning but instead on Television.

Unfortunately, all of this has alot to do with the Business school graduates who are now MBA's who are preserving the bottom line for the Corporations in which they're enslaved, by hiring the cheaper foreign workers over the higher paid American.
Can I really blame them ? No.

As the old saying goes, " you get what you pay for" but according to them, the hiring corporations are concerned, and as far as American employees go, you really aren't.

And that's why they're shopping overseas for employees.

For the second year in a row, engineer is the hardest job to fill in America.

Why are engineers so hard to find? "We have whole generations of people loving liberal arts, not going into science and math," says Larry Jacobson, executive director of the National Society of Professional Engineers.


It might be hard to believe that any employer is struggling to fill positions, since the unemployment rate reached 8.9% in April, up from 5% a year before. But the Manpower survey found that employers are having a very hard time filling jobs for skilled workers in specific niches. Geography plays a significant role too. While teachers, nurses, engineers and machinists are in short supply in one area, it might be tough to find a job in those professions elsewhere.

www.forbes.com...

fraterormus said a lot of things that are quite true. Hard to swallow but true IMO.

When we are paying high school football coaches more than teachers, you have to wonder what is being emphasized more.

I am helping to retrain a lot of folks under TRA(Trade Readjustment Act). I would say only about 10% are taking it seriously and trying to do better for themselves and their family. The rest are merely wasting their time and mine in an effort to extend their unemployment as far as they can.

I just hope that one day they don't regret the opportunity they lost.