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Gays 'will never go to heaven'

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posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by 13579
 
You have a really convincing argument here. I mean, here you are calling all people who oppose you stupid, f'd up, and then you say you hope they will go to hell. I don't see who can argue with that. You sure won me over pal.

[edit on 17-12-2009 by technical difficulties]




posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 



your post is riddled with prejudice- this man would also say muslims would not go to heaven, muslims would say he would not go to heaven, for crying out loud must we crowbar our childish offended victim seeking natures into discussions about the afterlife (with those doing the most shouting often not even believing such a thing exists!)


Agree here blueorder,

This kind of prejudice is the kind which expects to default through with out any dissent or challenge. No questioning of this is allowed. This is why it is a default setting. Just like this computer...it automatically goes to a preset position ...unless you know how to change the presets. Such a prejudice is often a prelude to a default setting to play through unquestioned and unchallanged if one is not on ones toes.

This is certainly not the tolerance demanded of others which is also a dichotomy I find very interesting and telling.

Oh..and for the benefit of the board. About going to heaven. The Believer knows that they themselves most certainly do "not ' deserve to go to heaven. Believers know that a Sovereign God determines this for His reasons and not our reasons.

The deserve....philosophy so prevalent today is one way the god of this world is identified for what it is. It is part and parcel of the seduction and allure of this world...just like defining ones self by their sex/sexuality/sexual orientation. It is part of self promotion..not humility.
However..to level the playing field here it is found among heteros as well as homosexuals.

The doctrine I know from the Bible is that "all" men deserve hell and damnation...no exceptions. The God of the Bible chooses to save His people and for His purposes. It is not up to us to know or determine who goes to heaven or not. None of our business. This is where many Believers show themselves not well grounded in the Faith.
What we know is by Faith...not by the standards and beliefs of this world or the god of this world.
And Faith here is a person ..not just a word. But Faith is also the Word.

What Believers who are well grounded in the Word know to do is separate from that which is not according to the Word. Come out from amongst them and be ye separate

What the world and the god of this world want Believers not to be able to do is separate from the things and ways of this world.

Once a Believer knows and knows under good discipline ...they can spot the fashion and methods of this world very well..and know to separate.

But the Doctrine of the Bible is that Believers "do not" determine who gets in to heaven. That is beyond their power and authority. That is God's jurisdiction.

What Believers do which gives offense is declare what the Word says. This gives offense to those who are in this world and after the god of this world..after the things of this world. It has always been this way from the begining.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


Well stated...

Respect is how people treat others in the same regard as they (the person handing it out) expect to receive. Regardless of whether or not it is received in the same amount/manner; the "giver" knows that he gave what he felt he deserved in return. (kind of a selfish circle but it works for me)

I have no thoughts on who gets to go to heaven/hell. God/Higher Power/WhoEver picks who He/She see's fit. I'd hate to be in Their shoes especially if the boat only holds 1000 people and you have 6 billion to chose from!!



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by Just Listening
reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


Well stated...

Respect is how people treat others in the same regard as they (the person handing it out) expect to receive. Regardless of whether or not it is received in the same amount/manner; the "giver" knows that he gave what he felt he deserved in return. (kind of a selfish circle but it works for me)

I have no thoughts on who gets to go to heaven/hell. God/Higher Power/WhoEver picks who He/She see's fit. I'd hate to be in Their shoes especially if the boat only holds 1000 people and you have 6 billion to chose from!!


Good to know that someone else gets it. Indeed ...God chooses who are His..not we. God chooses who gets into heaven and for His purposes..not ours.

Also ..one can give respect, civility, decency...but it does not mean it will be returned. This is how we know to separate from such.

Well stated Just Listening...well stated,

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Dec, 25 2009 @ 10:46 AM
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I can't be the only one who sees the irony of a man in a dress telling us gay and trans-people won't be going to heaven


[edit on 25-12-2009 by VelvetSplash]



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 10:16 AM
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posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by karl 12


Karl,

This is actually comical..yet at the same time very serious and sad. I do not think many understand what it is that they are proposing here.
No amount of cartoon humor can hide what is known by those who can think outside the box of what many today consider intelligence and sophistication.

The natural intellectual tendency of men..natural men... is to define themselves by their sexuality. To glory in their sexuality.

All of the categories you post there are marks of the ancient pagan religions and glorying in mans humanity by sacrificing to pagan gods.

There is no such instruction ..Olde or New Testament to glory in our humanity..in such a manner. In the flesh.

What is very interesting to me is that Science..particularly the social sciences are today quietly and by subtilty advocating a shift back to these ancient pagan dogmas and practices under the guise of glorifying man and man's human traits.
These dogmas are also by subtilty being used and channeled to support a new class of emotional voters who can be predicted in the manner in which they will vote. In other words this new social scientific shift is being used and channeled to serve the body politic...no matter what effect on the general public.

Science is now being hijacked to support humanity by supporting the body politic..through social engineering. Science here is not independent but instead dependent on government largess/favor. They will deliver the product required and paid for by the masters of science...the body politic.
The average American has no concept of this but sits at what they think is safety behind their steering wheels and television sets. They do not see science as a tool in the return to the pagan practices/dogmas/ and religions.
But I do..most definitely.

Do not misunderstand me here. I am not against science. For science has put us in better clothes, better houses, better medicine, better cars...et al.
What science has "not" done for most of us is make us better, more intelligent, more civilized peoples.

It has with the aid,financing, and seduction of the body politic...made us better consumers.
Consumers who tend to define ourselves by our flesh...what we consume..not how well we think or know for ourselves. What we have on the outside..not what we know or are on the inside. And open sexuality is a sign of a better consumer defining themselves by thier outside..their flesh. By pagan dogma and practice. Exactly as did many of the ancient civilizations.

I do not believe that science will ever be able to solve this dilemma as long as science is tied like a parasite to the body politic for funding. It will be crippled by the religion of politics...which is occult..concealed..and esoteric religion.
The religion of politics is in short...pagan.
And if science persists in attaching itself to the body politic for funding...it too will become pagan...and religious in nature. It is inescapable.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 01:01 PM
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This might sound like a silly question...

But how exactly is it HEAVEN for a Gay person if they disallow Anal Sex when you get there anyway?



Being silly but it's also a serious question, if your Gay that wouldn't exactly be your idea of "heaven" now would it?

Maybe One Man's Heaven really is another Man's Hell

So by the nature of it... if you wanted to punish a gay person.... you would send them to heaven no?



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by tezzajw

Gays 'will never go to heaven'


www.heraldsun.com.au

HOMOSEXUALS and transsexuals "will never enter the kingdom of heaven", a leading Roman Catholic cardinal said overnight.

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan said that while the Church regarded homosexuality as an "insult to God", this did not justify discrimination against gay and transsexual people.
(visit the link for the full news article)



silly pope, god made them
why would he do that... i suppose now it is to be argued that gays are a result of the devil.

Bull#, i say. sorry .

Abductee



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 




[OP] Gays 'will never go to heaven'

These old dinosaurs, when will they ever wake up to the real world and realise how silly they are?


In re: OP,

As a smoker, I have to admit that I am doing damage to my body; the human body... which is oft referred to (in general) in faith as 'God's Temple'. In a sense this is a sin and as much as I do believe in God, I continue to smoke... rather unrepentantly at that.

So, assuming for a moment that homosexuality is indeed a sin, then the question becomes: Will all smokers, all gays... and beyond that, all those who gamble, drink, cuss, look upon others with sexual desires of any form... will they (or we) go to hell?

I tend to think that God is far more understanding of the human condition than we humans ourselves are. And while I am no authority on what will finally be the the end of us all, I have a tough time thinking of God being as narrow minded as mankind.

I think that a lot of it has to do with what is in the heart of the soul. A good person, smoker or not, gay or straight, obese are anorexic should be held accountable for their character and their deeds, not their physical imperfections.

That is the God I personally believe in. If I am wrong, then I will be with most of you cracking sulfur in the after life.

But I still think God to be far more forgiving of His imperfect creations.

Cheers



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 02:33 PM
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Repeat after me -

There is no heaven
There is no heaven
There is no heaven
There is no heaven

and if there is -

Gays will be as welcome as anyone else.



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by spinkyboo
Repeat after me -

There is no heaven
There is no heaven
There is no heaven
There is no heaven


Curiously, if there is no heaven, no God, nothing after physical life, then I have nothing to lose in believing that there is.

On the other hand, if you are wrong...

EDIT: Typos

[edit on 29-12-2009 by redoubt]



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 02:43 PM
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What happened to "judge not, lest thee be judged thyself?" In Christianity, doesn't Christ alone "Judge the quick and the dead"?

I thought these 2 statements were general understandings in the Christian community; am I wrong? Saying someone won't be retiring to "club heaven" in their post-incarnatory years sounds like a gavel-slamming judgment to me.



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by redoubt

Originally posted by spinkyboo
Repeat after me -

There is no heaven
There is no heaven
There is no heaven
There is no heaven


Curiously, if there is no heaven, no God, nothing after physical life, then I have nothing to lose in believing that their is.

On the other hand, if you are wrong...


I think there is something after physical life -
I don't think there is a "heaven" or at least what we have been
taught that heaven might be. If we need a heaven and hell to remind us
to be decent beings, then we have nothing. We don't need the threat of
heaven or hell. In fact we should be furious that such a notion has gone on
so long. It's an obvious way to control the masses.

I do believe in the concept of God if you define "God" as:
"The word used to describe the various ways people, animals and any being or spirit loves one another."
But I don't believe "God" is what the majority of us has been taught that "God" is.
And we don't need the threat of a God - to be good.
We already know what that means.



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by spinkyboo
 





I do believe in the concept of God if you define "God" as: "The word used to describe the various ways people, animals and any being or spirit loves one another." But I don't believe "God" is what the majority of us has been taught that "God" is. And we don't need the threat of a God - to be good. We already know what that means.


Well, I do not now, nor have I ever viewed the existence of God as a threat, lol. But regardless, I hope that you find your answers where you seek them.




posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 09:50 AM
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reply to post by mopusvindictus
 



But how exactly is it HEAVEN for a Gay person if they disallow Anal Sex when you get there anyway?


mopusvindictus,

The natural tendency of humans is to think in the flesh. Education seems to help not in this arena. The human tack is to substitute human reasoning and logic/desires/expectations for those of God.

What is known from the Bible is that God views things from a standpoint of Purity. Not from the flesh.
This is one reason the Ark of the Covenant was removed from the temple.
The Hebrews had become impure...corrupted into the flesh of this world.

The Olde Timers say that when we stand before God ...God sees whether we are covered in the Blood of Jesus..not whether we have sex. For it is the Blood of Jesus which saves us..not sex/flesh. Understand now?? This puts it totally outside the ability of humans...period.
God needs to see the Blood of Jesus covering us...not our flesh. If God sees only our corrupt flesh...we don't go to heaven.
Who is covered with the Blood of Jesus. I don't know..it is none of my business. I don't determine that. Will there be homosexuals there. I have no doubt that there will be. The pope does not determine this. Neither do you and I. If there are homosexuals there..it is not by my design or yours but by His and for His purposes. God will do the work necessary to get them or anyone else there..not us. Not we ourselves.

reply to post by UFOabducteebe
 



silly pope, god made them why would he do that... i suppose now it is to be argued that gays are a result of the devil.

Bull#, i say. sorry .


There is a story or narrative concerning Hebrew history in the New Testament. It concerns two twin brothers..of the same father..Issac. Their names are Jacob and Esau.

And here we have declared that God hated Esau and He loved Jacob. Both born of the same father..Issac. Of the same lump of clay.
For Jacob was in the book of life and Esau was not.
It is that simple.
Man's rationale wants to substitute anything and everything ..including..."that's not fair!!"

What is known is that God chooses who are His and for His purposes..not for ours. Chosen people do not choose..they are chosen.

This is how I know of whom and what I read...concerning salvation..even among Christian Brethren. Are they teaching a choosing doctrine...I choose...I determine...I decide who goes to heaven. Or are they teaching a Chosen Doctrine..where God chooses who are his..not we.

God determines who goes to heaven...not the pope or anyone else.
Anything short of this is a counterfeit. And of the counterfeit god.

This leaves natural men totally out of the loop. And the natural tendency or pattern of men is to reverse God's process by emotions..by logic.. by reason...by the religion of men. This is not what one sees in the Bible.


reply to post by redoubt
 


There is no clear cut doctrine in the Bible to not smoke. One can make the arguments about bad for your health or bad for the temple..etc etc. But there is no clear cut statement about smoking. It is not in there.

There is also no clear cut statement about drinking alcohol. There is a statement not to be drunken..but no statement not to drink.

Many believers go overboard about drinking alcohol.

If you cannot handle alcohol without being drunken..don't drink..it is that simple. But don't stretch this out to mean ..no one can drink or you are going to hell and damnation. Same with smoking. It is not there.

What is known by Believers well versed in the faith ..is that "all" ,including Believers, deserve hell and damnation..no exceptions.
Any knowledgeable preacher, pastor, priests..speaking on hellfire and brimstone..damnation is speaking of and in particular about themselves.

reply to post by jem78
 



What happened to "judge not, lest thee be judged thyself?" In Christianity, doesn't Christ alone "Judge the quick and the dead"?

I thought these 2 statements were general understandings in the Christian community; am I wrong? Saying someone won't be retiring to "club heaven" in their post-incarnatory years sounds like a gavel-slamming judgment to me.


jem78,

This quote above is textbook and predictable of human logic and reasoning. It will pass for intelligence among most peoples because they don't thing further than the flesh or surface reasoning. It just sounds good like a catchy slogan or sales point.

People judge all the time..judge many things. If they don't they will be carried to and fro with every changing wind.

Judgement is how Believers know not to mix new wine with olde..leaven with unleavened. Corrupt with uncorrupted..by judgement.

Not only that ..but unbelievers have the ability to judge Believers in whether they are of God or not.

But to tell others not to judge is just plain Illogical. People judge things every day ..lots of things..and other people as well.

If Believers are not able to judge..they will never know when to separate from the ways of this world and the god of this world.
This is precisely why this man made logic does not make good nonsense when one thinks it through. Because someone out there does not want Believers to have the ability to separate from the things of this world and the god of this world. Someone does not want them to Judge.
Believers are to judge Righteous judgement. Not human judgement pe se.
Righteous here is a person...and not we ourselves.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom




[edit on 30-12-2009 by orangetom1999]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


Glory in their sexuality? I don't get this at all. All of us should embrace with tenderness and love the object of our affection and sex is a step taken, responsibly, thoughtfully and with another consenting adult. This is the only rule.
Sex is a gift. Life is a gift. The one you love be he male or be she female, returning love to you, is a gift for you.

No one has a right to squelch, silence, or forbid this. That is a sin against the spirit. The spirit of everyman has been placed here on earth and is free to enjoy life (as long as it harms no one else) and not destroy it.

Those who sacrilegiously and sanctimoniously condemn appropriate love among any adults are gleefully and pridefully stomping out their basic civil, constitutional and human rights....because of fanatical religious dogma.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 09:54 AM
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reply to post by redoubt
 


If you must err, (in the eyes of the God many of us have come to accept and know) err on the side of mercy, forgiveness, acceptance and love.
Human frailty is forgiven. Deliberate human hatred is not.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 12:03 PM
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I would assume that if the reason you go to hell is because you broke one of the "rules" of the bible that hell would be highly populated. As I am sure the majority of us religious or not have broken a few of the rules. Just take the 7 deadly sins for instance. The majority of these are indoctrinated and frequently practiced in the world.

Vice Virtue

Lust Chastity
Gluttony Temperance
Greed Charity
Sloth Diligence
Wrath Patience
Envy Kindness
Pride Humility


Well I am no saint , because the sinners have so much more fun!! I wonder how much a 2 bedroom flat goes for in hell? Do we get free healthcare?
Perhaps we have it all wrong and we actually live in hell and when we die that is actually the heaven.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 10:02 PM
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reply to post by rusethorcain
 


rusethorcain,


Glory in their sexuality? I don't get this at all.


Yes indeed. I am sure by your post that you dont get it at all. No problem. I will make this clear for you if you have the capacity to see beyond the flesh.


All of us should embrace with tenderness and love the object of our affection and sex is a step taken, responsibly, thoughtfully and with another consenting adult. This is the only rule.


No...this is not the only rule. There is another. I am not debating the point that people do not have sex. Not at all. But for those stuck in the flesh ..this is as far as most can think. The flesh..sex/sexuality.

My point is that people are so much more than mere sexuality. Much much more. Why limit ones self by definition and ability to only this ..sex/sexuality. Are we naturally stupid..even giftedly stupid and proud of it??

One has to go to school to get this naturally stupid to define ones self only by sex/sexuality. People left to thier own devices are not this naturally stupid.

There is no Biblcal instruction for a Believer to define who and what they are by sex/sexuality. It is not there.
Notice I did not say that they dont have sex/sexuality..I said that this is not who they are.
Heteros t oday are just as bad glorifying in it as are the homos.

Sex and sexuality are marketed to both Homo and Hetero sexuals carte blanche in this modern, sophisticated, intelligent social structure.

The main problem no one and even the clergy seem want to mention is that the Homosexual groups..this is their main and sole identifier..their sex/sexuality. Talk about stupid. Even a homosexual is much more than sexuality. But they choose this one venue to glorify and identify themselves. You have to be educated in modern standards to get this naturally stupid.

Understand now about glorying in ones sexuality?? This is not a new thing when one knows about the Pagan nations and their history.
This is just making a comeback.

And this rusethorcain,


No one has a right to squelch, silence, or forbid this. That is a sin against the spirit. The spirit of everyman has been placed here on earth and is free to enjoy life (as long as it harms no one else) and not destroy it.


A sin against man?? good grief..this is man as a demi god. Man makes the rules. Man is the ultimate reality in the universe. This is called Paganism. A god we can see. A king to be like other nations. This is the world religion and it has a dogma of its own. It is nothing new.

Against the spirit??? Give me the name of this spirit...by name please???


Hope this helps.
Orangetom



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