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Secrecy is Repugnant: An honest request to Masons.

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posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 12:38 AM
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Again, I was looking into some of Project2501 claims, and I must say that I'm appalled! (I'm sure most masons and non-masons on this board will be as well)

Freemasons should really pull recognition from Metro Daylight Lodge No. 743 in Chamblee and Philologia Lodge No. 178 in Conyers. Both Lodges located in Georgia.


In June, the Worshipful Master, or leader, of the Gate City Lodge was served with complaints from two other lodges, whose Worshipful Masters were upset that Gate City had admitted a “nonwhite man” to its ranks.


From an article July 2009!!
www.nytimes.com...



If there's an update to this situation, I'd love to hear it.

Also, could one of the knowledgeable Masons comment on my post here regarding Hitler's possible recognition of a certain Masonic group. It'd be much appreciated.
 


reply to post by Josephus23
 


So let's say that you are speaking the truth, which is impossible if we are discussing Freemasonry and you are a Mason (this has already been firmly established)

I don't believe you've established that. As it stands, Masons are still able to discuss anything they want except the modes of recognition. Nothing in this thread has lead me to believe otherwise.

[edit on 20/12/09 by ConspiracyNut23]




posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 01:00 AM
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This has been a great thread; however, my OP has been heavily derailed.

So, in sticking with my OP, I will be crafting a post that I am currently researching. As is plainly obvious from the many posts from the many Freemasons on this board, any "anti" talk, as they like to describe it, gets met head on with force.

These guys are serious about maintaining the secrecy of their group and they will go to any length to continue the traditions.
By any means necessary.

Even if it means attacking individuals personally and attacking them as often as possible.

My OP stated this:

In a country such as this, secrecy, secret societies and secret oaths should not be tolerated in the halls of justice.
We have been under attack from an enemy with unlimited resources and inter-generational will. They are patient and conniving and willing to do what ever is necessary. The end result justifies the means.


So as individuals read through this, they should keep in mind the fact that we have a framework inside of our government that allows for the subversive takeover without anyone ever noticing.
As much as I hate to quote David Icke, he has a couple of concepts that are used by these guys that exemplify exactly what I am talking about.

1) the totalitarian tiptoe- this is the slow, gradual and successive drive toward a completely controlled and mechanized society.

2) thesis, antithesis, synthesis- see the hegelian method.

I have allowed the many Masons on this board to distract me causing me to lose focus. I became more inclined to prove individual rights and wrongs, when my focus should have been on my OP.

Thanks to all for reading and I hope that I can manage to stay focused on the topic found in my OP.

Cheers. Say no to World Government and NEVER JOIN AN INITIATORY SECRET SOCIETY.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 01:22 AM
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reply to post by Josephus23
 


So as individuals read through this, they should keep in mind the fact that we have a framework inside of our government that allows for the subversive takeover without anyone ever noticing.

IMO, the takeover has for a long time been completed. I don't think the US has had a single decent President for the entire 20th Century. (although, there has been individual acts of heroism here and there)

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.



[edit on 20/12/09 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by Josephus23

Let's look at one of your quotes:


Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
eta: That said, I won't be rising again to this troll's bait


I would suggest adding to that "unless it helps me distract attention away from the truth regarding this thread".


You would add. And you'd be wrong. I would much rather see the topic stay on-topic. However entering HDFACTORYCERTIF as proof of anything other than a shining example of a canard having nothing whatever to do with Masonry does deserve to be corrected if for no other reason than for the fuller understanding of a casual reader of this thread. And as long as that poster is cited, I will continue to cite the "Problem Lodge" thread (in its entirety and not just cherry-picked) for a fuller understanding of just how easily ATS members can be sucked-in by someone with a story.

ATS is about denying ignorance after all.


Originally posted by Josephus23
Let's look at one of his quotes:



Goodbye Fitzgibbon. Just keep those secrets and run the ship aground. There are far more just like you like you, then are not.


So let's say that you are speaking the truth, which is impossible if we are discussing Freemasonry and you are a Mason (this has already been firmly established).


So you're judge, jury and executioner in your own mind. That's a sterling example of ignorance denial alright.


Originally posted by Josephus23
You are only making it oh so obvious as to why he wanted out.


To want out, you have to have ever been in. Clearly, you haven't read the "Problem Lodge" thread stem to stern or you'd realise that you've just demonstrated a perfect example of someone being sucked-in.

Either that or you want to believe he was what he claimed (despite conclusive proof to the contrary) because you feel it bolsters your position.


Originally posted by Josephus23
Just to compare. Let's look at how another Mason reacted regarding this guys comment.



That indeed is appalling. I am sorry this wasn't treated as it should have been by Grand Lodge. Of course as a Mason you will always be a brother. It's a shame that ritual was mocked in this way.


Sure does seem to me that this Mason found his story credible.


Because clearly the brother in question hadn't read through the entirety of the "Problem Lodge" thread and (I presume) is basing his response on the post by HD. An understandable and forgivable error.


Originally posted by Josephus23
But you know what Mr. Fitzgibbon? I honestly do not care about this and it doesn't really relate to my OP.
So here you go. You can win this battle.

Do you feel better now?


I'm here to assist in denying ignorance (ATS' stated goal), to separate fact from fiction; it isn't about winning or losing and I certainly don't have anything invested in it emotionally.


Originally posted by Josephus23
Your behavior exemplifies and betrays the truth behind your words.

And what are you trying to do?

DISTRACT!!!!!
DISTORT!!!!!
DECEIVE!!!!


"Distract"? No. Trying to prevent an unvarnished falsehood being used to derail the original stated intention of this thread. Likewise "distort" and "deceive".


Originally posted by Josephus23
It seems like I have accused you of this before, and yet you seem to be oh so adamant to prove me right.

Thank you Mr. Fitzgibbon. I could not have asked for better behavioral reinforcement of my accusation!!

Seriously. Thank you.


I'm here for truth. Real truth not fiction created in a fevered brow and trotted out as 'truth'. The truth of the matter is that the 'secrecy' you rail against hasn't existed since about 1725 when the first book detailing masonic ritual came out. And that 'secrecy' doesn't exist today. Otherwise, would you be able to Google the information from the comfort of your chair? Hardly secretive by any meaningful measure.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
reply to post by Josephus23
 


So as individuals read through this, they should keep in mind the fact that we have a framework inside of our government that allows for the subversive takeover without anyone ever noticing.

IMO, the takeover has for a long time been completed. I don't think the US has had a single decent President for the entire 20th Century. (although, there has been individual acts of heroism here and there)

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[edit on 20/12/09 by ConspiracyNut23]


We agree!!!!!
(for the most part)

I think that the takeover is much further along than most people want to believe; however, I also think that we have certain elements of jurisprudence still available to us that could allow for the re-institution of Constitutional Law WITHOUT having to result to violence.

I firmly believe that TPTB are attempting to goad the American people into a violent revolution.
That would play right into their hands and it would give them a great reason to push for public disarmament.
A violent uprising must be the absolute last resort. It would be much easier to use the tools found in the Constitution because it would cost no lives.
Violence should only be out of necessity.

Now, concerning the other posts, such as the previous post, which all attack me personally...

I simply will not acknowledge these personal attacks any longer.

But I would like to thank the many Masons who have posted relentlessly on this thread, because...
you have all helped me push this thread to the top of the
"recent hot topics" portion of the Secret Societies page on ATS!!

If it wasn't for you guys, then my audience would be much smaller.

Once again. Thank you.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by Project2501

Originally posted by mcr4life
reply to post by zaiger
 


well as you know freemason is a secret society and many people are in it like jay-z beyonce and more people but people do it for the benefits while they just messed up id rather work then be a freemason


Sorry Jay-Z & Beyonce aren't of the Southern & Accepted Scottish Rite Jurisdiction. African Americans are excluded in regular "blue" lodges. Jay-Z would be allowed in the "Prince Hall Freemasonry" which is the African American, Freemasonry. It is considered regular by the United Grand Lodge of England! And wasn't considered regular by some of the former Confederate states until around 3 months before the win of the Presidential candidate of Barack Hussein Obama II There is also a African American Shriners as well. The Prince Hall Shriners. And the African American women have as example the Daughters of Isis this is where Beyonce would come in.

[Changed (before the win of Presidential win of Barack Hussein Obama II.) to before the win of the Presidential candidate of Barack Hussein Obama II.]


[edit on 19-12-2009 by Project2501]


Blacks are not excluded from normal lodges. I personally am a prince hall mason but I have many friends who are black and are members of normal lodges.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Josephus23

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Josephus23
Are you actually trying to tell me that the mission of a lodge and its members are not bifurcated?

This is a video of a 33rd degree Scottish Rite Master Mason (Grand Poobah).
Pay attention to 2 things for me.
1) The very first thing that he states is that the mission of the lodge is...

BIFURCATED.


Firstly, he is talking about the Scottish Rite, an appendant body of Masonry, and not about Lodges. You do know the difference do you?

Secondly, in the video you linked he is very clear as to his meanings of duality such as;

Patriotism to ones government and duty to God.

Study of the Esoteric and Scientific.

I am not quite sure how this proves anything sinister, just that you seem to get very excitable about that which you have little understanding.



It sounds to me like you are trying to argue a point based on semantics Masonicus.

You have painted yourself in a corner. Not me.

I do not care what is the lodge and what is appendant.

Like I have said before, my goal is to expose secret societies and their resulting framework.

Anyone with critical thinking skills can clearly see that you are rife with contradictions.

AS IS FREEMASONRY. That is why it should be banned in the halls of government.


I've yet to see you "expose" anything, my good sir.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by jeasahtheseer
 


I do not expect any Mason to agree with me on this issue kind sir.

Agreeing with me would put a Mason at odds with their belief system, but I am grateful for the respectful reply.

As far as exposing anything relating DIRECTLY to Freemasonry, it is philosophically impossible, because each level of Freemasonry offers some type of initiatory insight previously impossible to grasp. The secrecy of this group keeps everyone guessing anytime any Mason says anything regarding Freemasonry.
The allure and power of Freemasonry rests with its "secrecy".
(as I have posted previously, if you folks really wanted to be secret, why even tell anyone that you exist?)

What has been exposed is the behavior and intent of the many Masons who have posted replies.
These replies rely heavily on name calling (ad hominem attacks), and distractions or distortions (non-sequiturs).

And I will agree with you, this is not me exposing anything.
I am relying on the individuals involved in Freemasonry to expose themselves.

However, when I complete my research and post the thread of individuals (Masons) throughout history who are responsible for the policies that have our country on the precipice of takeover from within, then you will clearly see what I am exposing.
And this has more to do with said individuals using the framework of a secret society to accomplish their goal and less to do with any particular secret society in itself.

Until then, thank you for the respectful reply.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by Josephus23
As far as exposing anything relating DIRECTLY to Freemasonry, it is philosophically impossible, because each level of Freemasonry offers some type of initiatory insight previously impossible to grasp. The secrecy of this group keeps everyone guessing anytime any Mason says anything regarding Freemasonry.
The allure and power of Freemasonry rests with its "secrecy".
(as I have posted previously, if you folks really wanted to be secret, why even tell anyone that you exist?)
I think fundamentally you first need to be able to prove that Freemasons have ANY secrets. Then work from there.


What has been exposed is the behavior and intent of the many Masons who have posted replies.
These replies rely heavily on name calling (ad hominem attacks), and distractions or distortions (non-sequiturs).
You'll note that my replies have done no such thing, and I'd thank you not to paint us all with the same brush.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by jeasahtheseer
 


Blacks are not excluded from normal lodges.

They are in at least two Lodges in Georgia. (see my first post on top of this page)

Please make your Lodge aware of this, and have your Lodge (or would that be your state's Grand Lodge?) consider not recognizing these rednecks.



posted on Dec, 20 2009 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 


Emperor Norton, I am glad to see you return. (I gave you a star btw)



I think fundamentally you first need to be able to prove that Freemasons have ANY secrets. Then work from there.


My problem is not with any of the secrets that Freemasonry might or might not have, but my problem is with the idea of SECRECY being allowed to thrive in the halls of government...
And when I say that anyone who serves the people should read like an open book, I mean that EVERY single thing as it relates to a government of, for, and by the people should be open and absolutely nothing, nada, zilch should be kept secret or hidden from the people EVER.
Anyone who serves the people and serves Freemasonry has CONFLICTING obligations.
I do not care how much you guys might try and convince me that your oaths say otherwise.

I don't BELIEVE YOU.

As any other citizen of this country should not either.

Allowing secret anything to exist inside of OUR government has created an environment fertile for a government coup.

By allowing secrets to exist in government, we are making it easy for the enemy.

The cancer that is slowly eating away at our freedoms in government is due 100% to the fact that the idea of secrecy can exist in government.

This is what has allowed for every government coup in the history of everything that has ever existed, EVER.

I am glad that I am conversing with you now Emperor Norton, because anyone who is reading this, which I am hoping that maybe a few people are by now, will see exactly what I have been alluding to all along:

What Kennedy was trying to say is that the enemy, who almost has us beaten, is not one sole secret society, nor is our enemy the people in said secret society, but it is a FEW people who have USED THE IDEA AND FRAMEWORK of a secret society to get us to the precipice of complete and total annihilation.

We already have one wall put up called the 14th Amendment that is blocking our access to the Constitution.
We need to stop this before it gets worse.
Fortunately, the PATRIOT ACT has to be renewed, but when it becomes straight up law, then WE ARE DONE.
Say goodbye to our precious rights and country then.



You'll note that my replies have done no such thing, and I'd thank you not to paint us all with the same brush.


My point, exactly.


Now, I am going to get to what I have been promising you folks this whole time, but I have to tell you guys how this is going to work.

I have entirely TOO much information to put this in one post, so I will be putting this out in segments. I like this because it gives me a chance to take a break and get some feedback.
I mean, I could be totally wrong, but I highly doubt it.
Getting feedback will both let me see what you guys think and let me know if anyone has an interest in this.
I don't want to give the world information that it doesn't want.

I am compiling all the information for my next post, which will lay the groundwork explaining exactly what has happened to us and how either Freemasonry, or some other type of secret initiatory organization always seems to be around.
Once again, I am not accusing Freemasonry, but what I am doing is trying to show the reader that the people who are trying to take our country down, the same people the Masons fought against, are the ones that have used these secret societies to sew their agenda.

Just as Christian secret societies were used to overthrow the social order in Rome, calling for Constantine to Christianize the Roman empire, a few bad apples in the bunch are using the framework of secret societies to overthrow our social order.
It is happening now.

I will put together my next post and have it up in before the morning (I hope).

Until then.

Check out this movie.
It's called Conspiracy of Silence. You will never be the same.


Google Video Link





[edit on 20-12-2009 by Josephus23]

[edit on 21-12-2009 by Josephus23]



posted on Dec, 21 2009 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23


Also, could one of the knowledgeable Masons comment on my post here regarding Hitler's possible recognition of a certain Masonic group. It'd be much appreciated.
 



It must be emphasized that so-called "Christian Order of Frederick the Great" was an organization composed of former Masons who were Nazis and Nazi sympathizers. Freemasonry had been made illegal in Nazi Germany, with the official Nazi guide to Masonry being the anti-Masonic book "Freemasonry Ideology" by SS Reichsfuhrer Dieter Schwarz.

The Order of Frederick the Great did not use Masonic rituals, associate with Freemasons, nor claim to be a masonic order. It's ritual was based on the false claim that Frederick the Great renounced Freemasonry in his later life (he did not).

[edit on 21-12-2009 by Masonic Light]



posted on Dec, 21 2009 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by Masonic Light
 

Thanks ML.


Just so I get this right.

We can't even say that the "Christian Order of Frederick the Great" was an irregular lodge, it wasn't a masonic lodge at all?

So the claim that the "American and British Freemasonry" recognized it as being 'regular' Freemasonry, is completely made-up by the folks over at freemasonrywatch?



posted on Dec, 21 2009 @ 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
We can't even say that the "Christian Order of Frederick the Great" was an irregular lodge, it wasn't a masonic lodge at all?

So the claim that the "American and British Freemasonry" recognized it as being 'regular' Freemasonry, is completely made-up by the folks over at freemasonrywatch?
This appears to be a well researched document on the subject, complete with citations. IMHO, the "folks over at freemasonrywatch" aren't creative enough to make anything up, but they're more than happy to repeat unsubstantiated lies that they've heard elsewhere ad nauseam.



posted on Dec, 22 2009 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
If there's an update to this situation, I'd love to hear it.
The two lodges who made the complaint were denied a hearing before the Grand Master. The sitting Grand Master later issued an edict saying that nothing disparaging could be said in lodge based on a member's race, but later when the Grand Lodge met, that edict was essentially rescinded and attempts to get such verbiage written into their constitution & bylaws failed to get enough votes. (read the comment thread to the end to get the gist of the timeline; I'm not representing it well here...)

That said, there's nothing in the constitution or bylaws of the Grand Lodge of Georgia which would prevent a black man from becoming a member, but I think that some of the motions put forth would have added penalties against lodges found to be discriminating on a racial bias.

I'm in Texas, also, tangentially, "the south", but my lodge has members of any number of races, religions and sexual preferences or proclivities. We're all equal, and my home lodge firmly believes that. But there are other lodges which meet in the same building on different nights who would not be comfortable attending one of our meetings, and might even walk out if some of our members attended theirs.

Intolerance most often stems from ignorance and fear. Putting a fine point to what those fears are in order to overcome them, however, is surprisingly difficult.



posted on Dec, 22 2009 @ 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23


We can't even say that the "Christian Order of Frederick the Great" was an irregular lodge, it wasn't a masonic lodge at all?

So the claim that the "American and British Freemasonry" recognized it as being 'regular' Freemasonry, is completely made-up by the folks over at freemasonrywatch?


That is correct. The article that Josh linked to is pretty good in this regard, including quotes from a letter written by the head of the Order of Frederick the Great exclaiming "We are not Freemasons!"



posted on Dec, 22 2009 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23


We can't even say that the "Christian Order of Frederick the Great" was an irregular lodge, it wasn't a masonic lodge at all?

So the claim that the "American and British Freemasonry" recognized it as being 'regular' Freemasonry, is completely made-up by the folks over at freemasonrywatch?


That is correct. The article that Josh linked to is pretty good in this regard, including quotes from a letter written by the head of the Order of Frederick the Great exclaiming "We are not Freemasons!"


So, I am going to continue letting you guys hijack this thread and not respond to what I have said.

It only shows disrespect and anybody reading can assuredly see straight through the charade.

Did you watch the movie guys?

Do you have a response to my allegations, and I am hoping that it will be civil?

Let the name calling begin, or not.

I could see you guys taking the tactic of derailing my thread by talking all around me.
It doesn't matter.
Most people will not respond to any discussion of Freemasonry as long as Masons are involved in the conversation.
People are suspect of you, and you continue to give them reasons to be suspect.
This thread is the embodiment of why.
People see Freemasons as irrational individuals who will do whatever is necessary to further their social status.
While you guys continue to act like a bridge-club, gossip circle out here, I am getting some great U2U's and all express the same message.

"Don't waste your time with the Masons. They are like a cult of personality and they will not retract their beliefs. They will attack you and call it rational. They are not worth the time"

Congrats on the public relations job gentleman!
You represent your people well!



posted on Dec, 22 2009 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by Josephus23
 

With all due respect, I'm simply seeking clarification about points brought out in this thread.

I apologize if you feel that I'm purposely derailing your thread.



posted on Dec, 22 2009 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
reply to post by Josephus23
 

With all due respect, I'm simply seeking clarification about points brought out in this thread.

I apologize if you feel that I'm purposely derailing your thread.


Thank you for being respectful. I understand what you have just said, and I have no problem with what you are saying, but I would like to get a Mason's answer on some of these questions that I am posing.
If you guys want to have cross talk in my thread then fine, but respect me enough to answer my questions as well.
And please answer them respectfully.
As Emperor Norton (muah) has done so far.

Did you watch the movie?
If not, then please take the time to watch the movie.

When you do, then tell me if you think that the concept of secrecy being acceptable in government had anything to do with the INTENSE mental suffering that these kids endured.

and still endure...



posted on Dec, 22 2009 @ 09:07 AM
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reply to post by Josephus23
 

Thanks. Just so you know, I'm not a mason. Being an atheist, I couldn't be one even if I wanted to.

You can check my posts in this thread by clicking on the little "thread" label at the bottom of any of my posts. (or you can click here) You'll see that I have always been respectful. I too, thought the mud slinging was going a bit far for a bit.

I've seen the movie you posted as it's been discussed numerous times here on ATS. Isn't it about child abuse though? Washington sex ring? I don't believe it involved the masons, but it's been a while.

I do understand that your point is that "secrecy is repugnant", but the Masons' only secrets are the modes of recognition.

I personally see the focus on freemasonry to be a red herring. There are more nefarious organizations such as the CFR, Bilderberg, Trilats, etc. that in my opinion deserve much more attention.

I've commented on EO 11110 and JFK's "secret society speech", but the insults started flying soon afterwards, and I'm afraid it was lost in the storm.

[edit on 22/12/09 by ConspiracyNut23]



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