Secrecy is Repugnant: An honest request to Masons.

I am relatively new to ATS and I try to look at things from every angle, but I have to ask you guys?

Did you ever think that the idea of a secret fraternal organization is what is taking this country down?

Not merely Freemasonry, but several secret societies have been banned from several countries and the reason for banning them was because of their secrecy.
(I know that the previous thought was circular, but the reason was for emphasis, not due to logical flaw).

When Kennedy made that speech, he was meaning that the idea of a secret society was repugnant in a free and open society, not any particular one. When the idea of secrecy in a free and open society is allowed to exist in the halls of any political institution, then the people who use that idea for seditious and nefarious purposes will eventually flourish. I personally think that Kennedy was made privy to the knowledge that a group of individuals were hiding behind the many faces of the many secret societies and using that secrecy to take over the US government by covert means. That is why he was taken out. He was about to blow it all open and he was starting with the Federal Reserve and Executive Order 11110. He was murdered 5 months after the order.

hubpages.com...

Listen to his speech in the JFK archives. Do not listen to the youtube knock-offs that liberally edit his speech. Click on the "listen to the speech" link. He gave this speech 2 months before the previous executive order.

www.jfklibrary.org...

I know that Masonry offers you an opportunity for brotherhood, but we have a huge problem in this country and it is all about secrecy.
So, naturally I want to start with the people who are the most involved politics, and who are the most secret and that happens to be...

Masons.

I am well aware that several of the founding fathers were Masons and that the principles of Masonry are what this country was founded upon, but things change...

Kind of like the Bill of Rights and who has access to them.
Actually what I mean is that we no longer access the rights that this country was founded upon, because we have contracted the enforcement of our rights to the Federal Government, but that is another argument for another day.

So, if the actual government of the country in which we live, that was created by Masons, is no longer accessible because of the proxy Federal Government that masquerades as our country, then why do you not make it your great work for brotherhood to restore Constitutional Law?

The entire idea of a secret society of people who works for the good of everybody is ridiculous, and a philosophical contradiction.

What makes you want to belong to something that supposedly works for the good of everyone, but in secret?

[edit on 1-12-2009 by Josephus23]

[edit on 1-12-2009 by Josephus23]

The entire idea of a secret society of people who works for the good of everybody is ridiculous, and a philosophical contradiction.

What makes you want to belong to something that supposedly works for the good of everyone, but in secret?



Have you also asked the Elks, Rotary, Eagles,Knights of Columbus, Moose Lodge , etc? Well, you should. Have you NEVER done anything to help others and were simply satisfied to to help them without praise? Do you need praise for for simply helping others? This is sort of what fraternal groups do. A philosophical contradiction?

If so, you may not be welcome in any organization that helps the less fortunate.


[edit on 12/1/09 by scooterstrats]

"then why do you not make it your great work for brotherhood to restore Constitutional Law?"

Because we are as powerful as you are. We have no advantage over you no matter how much you wish or think any fraternity does.

Originally posted by Josephus23
When Kennedy made that speech, he was meaning that the idea of a secret society was repugnant in a free and open society, not any particular one. When the idea of secrecy in a free and open society is allowed to exist in the halls of any political institution, then the people who use that idea for seditious and nefarious purposes will eventually flourish. I personally think that Kennedy was made privy to the knowledge that a group of individuals were hiding behind the many faces of the many secret societies and using that secrecy to take over the US government by covert means. That is why he was taken out. He was about to blow it all open and he was starting with the Federal Reserve and Executive Order 11110. He was murdered 5 months after the order.

hubpages.com...

Listen to his speech in the JFK archives. Do not listen to the youtube knock-offs that liberally edit his speech. Click on the "listen to the speech" link. He gave this speech 2 months before the previous executive order.

www.jfklibrary.org...

I applaud you pointing to the correct speech. The one that's been chopped up pisses me off to no end. My personal opinion on the nature of this particular speech is that he was talking about communism in the US. He gave this speech one week after his address to the same audience regarding the Bay of Pigs. I'm not a historian, and I wasn't around in the early 60's, so I don't really know the sequence of events that well, or what the tone of the country was, but that's my interpretation based on what I know of the timeline. Kennedy himself was a member of the Knights of Columbus, so I really don't think he was disparaging fraternal orders.

I know that Masonry offers you an opportunity for brotherhood, but we have a huge problem in this country and it is all about secrecy.

I'd ask you to expand on this more. How is secrecy such a big problem in the US today?

So, naturally I want to start with the people who are the most involved politics, and who are the most secret and that happens to be...

Masons.

Firstly, Masons today are far less active in politics than they were 40 years ago. The height of Masonry was in the 20 years after WWII, but the boomers weren't joiners. The number of Masons has dropped significantly, and the number of Masons in any sort of political position has dropped proportionally.

Secondly, the Masons really aren't that secret. All the secrets of Masonry have been published in various forms from various leaks for more than 200 years.

I am well aware that several of the founding fathers were Masons and that the principles of Masonry are what this country was founded upon, but things change...

Kind of like the Bill of Rights and who has access to them.
Actually what I mean is that we no longer access the rights that this country was founded upon, because we have contracted the enforcement of our rights to the Federal Government, but that is another argument for another day.

So, if the actual government of the country in which we live, that was created by Masons, is no longer accessible because of the proxy Federal Government that masquerades as our country,

(I recently found this article, which I think is very enlightening on that same subject, offtopic or no).

then why do you not make it your great work for brotherhood to restore Constitutional Law?

First, politics aren't discussed in lodge. Like religion. The subject of politics is naturally divisive and contrary to the harmony we want when we meet. While it's true that many in the American revolution were Masons, and we still have verbiage in the ritual which denounces tyranny and espouses the virtues of separation of church and state, we also have words that say we'll be peaceable citizens, loyal to our country. (Yeah, there's probably wiggle room if one argued that our government is not longer serving the people, but...)

Coupled with the fact that Masonry is decentralized, there's no overarching centralized system in place by which a nation-wide change could be supported. A handful of colonies and an absentee King? Sure they could deal with that. But the population of the US today? We're spread too thin and the units are too independent to really enact change.

The entire idea of a secret society of people who works for the good of everybody is ridiculous, and a philosophical contradiction.

What makes you want to belong to something that supposedly works for the good of everyone, but in secret?

Not a contradiction at all. Did your parents ever pretend that Santa Claus was leaving your presents under the tree, or that the tooth fairy was leaving you money under your pillow when you were a kid? They didn't take credit themselves, did they? One of the principles of Masonry is that we do good work because it needs to be done, not for praise or recognition, simply because it's the right thing to do.

''Secrecy'' is the opposite of brutality.

If you want to do away with secrecy then you're voting for honest brutality. Good luck with that.

reply to post by Josephus23

When Kennedy made that speech, he was meaning that the idea of a secret society was repugnant in a free and open society, not any particular one.

Yet in the very same speech, he asks the media for greater secrecy. He is asking them not to print articles that might give the enemy classified or important information. Who needs the KGB when you can simply open the New York Times and read matters of national security?

He is saying: "I know we don't like secrecy here in the US, but I must ask you guys to be careful what you print. Leaks surrounding the Bay of Pigs put me in a bad spot."

He was about to blow it all open and he was starting with the Federal Reserve and Executive Order 11110. He was murdered 5 months after the order.

The thing with EO 11110 is that if you read the text, you'll see that it simply allows for the Secretary of the Treasury to issue silver certificates instead of the President himself.

It takes no power away from the Federal Reserve. It simply transfers power from the President to the US treasury.

President Johnson didn't revoke EO 11110. In fact, it was not revoked until over 20 years later, in 1987.



[edit on 2/12/09 by ConspiracyNut23]

Remember there is a difference between secrecy and privacy.

The "secrets" in Masonry are a tiny part of the whole fraternity. Silly passwords and handshakes, etc.

We often laugh at documentaries and theories that suggest we wield some sort of influence on the government or the world.

The reason for secrecy, though, is not to hide anything. It is to preserve the mystery, surprise and wonderful experience to those who seek that experience out.

The esoteric lessons of Freemasonry aren't exclusive. Anyone can learn them in any number of ways, even on their own. Freemasonry just provides an opportunity to learn them together with like-minded men.

It also provides a harmonious place to come together without the intrusion of religion or politics. Of course the occasional baseball rivalry creates a schism during the playoff season, but we don't let that come between us!

In the end though our secrecy is kept because it's just simply nobody else's business. It's like the things you and your spouse discuss privately in your home. Those things don't concern me, or affect my life in any way. Similarly our secrets have absolutely no effect on the outside world and honestly are nobody's business.

It's like the whole Tiger Woods thing. What difference does it make to the rest of society whether his wife beat his ass or he is a bad driver? It doesn't.

then why do you not make it your great work for brotherhood to restore Constitutional Law?

Because it's not our job.

Just because the revolutionaries were Masons doesn't mean Masonry caused the revolution.

Masonry is about teaching a man a code of morality so he can understand his place in relation to others and to God.

The idea of using our organization to influence politics would be offensive to most Masons. It goes against everything we believe.

We don't allow discussions of politics or religion in our lodges because it disrupts the harmony we work so hard to create.

reply to post by Josephus23

Secrecy is Repugnant

Yes i agree, please post all your information including social security number. We would not want any secrets would we? There is nothing wrong with secrecy. I am of the honest opinion that free masons keep their affairs private due mostly to tradition.

Where is the OP? Was this post only rhetorical?

There can not be an honest answer from a Mason here, not ever!
Any Mason posting anything considered negative by the Grand PooBaa, will be expelled.
Therefore folks, all you will get is the same old BS.
Yep! I was expelled for posting right here on the good old ATS!

Originally posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF
There can not be an honest answer from a Mason here, not ever!
Any Mason posting anything considered negative by the Grand PooBaa, will be expelled.
Therefore folks, all you will get is the same old BS.
Yep! I was expelled for posting right here on the good old ATS!

What are you talking about?

I am a Mason and I can say anything I want. I would take offense to the fact that you are essentially calling me a liar by proxy when you don't even know me.

As a Mason I am subordinate to only one - God.

We have a saying in Freemasonry, "No man speaks for Freemasonry."

To classify an entire group of people as liars simply because of their membership in a fraternity is simple-minded, ignorant and bigoted.

One of the main beliefs of Masons is the equality of mankind. We believe all of mankind is one family. We don't classify people by sex, gender, race, religion or political/religious belief.

To vilify Masons with a broad brush stroke of bigotry is tantamount to saying things like:

- "You won't ever be able to get a Mexican to work because they are all lazy."

- "You won't ever be able to get money from a Jew because they are all stingy."

- "You won't ever be able to have intelligent children with a Southerner because they are all inbred."

- "You won't ever be able to outrun an African because they are all fast."

- "You shouldn't take your crippled child to a Shriner's hospital because they are all pedophiles."

- "You should never shake a gay person's hand because they are all infected with HIV."


Do you realize how OFFENSIVE these stereotypes are?

I will tell you what's repugnant. Ignorance is repugnant.

Originally posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF
There can not be an honest answer from a Mason here, not ever!
Any Mason posting anything considered negative by the Grand PooBaa, will be expelled.
Therefore folks, all you will get is the same old BS.
Yep! I was expelled for posting right here on the good old ATS!

I can post whatever and whenever I want, this is nonsense. I do not answer to a Grand PooBaa, especially since no such position exists within Masonry.

Please elaborate on your alleged expulsion. Since you're claiming to be a Mason describe the charges which were brought up against you, how they proved it within your Masonic trial.

Alrighty, Don Dyar expelled in Washington State, was member of Walla Walla lodge #7 and Blue Mountain #13.
For posting "Problem Lodge" here on ATS and refusing to remove those post.
Therefore any Mason posting anything about problems, illegal activity, Grand Lodge cover ups will be expelled.
So where is the truth and light!

reply to post by Josephus23

No, I don't think its the secret fraternal organizations that are bringing this country down.

The Masons are not a secret society, they are a private society that has some secrets. In a secret society, members don't let out they are members nor are their meeting places known by the public.

reply to post by HDFACTORYCERTIF


reply to post by HDFACTORYCERTIF


I remember you now. I had to go back and read your thread.

I never quite understood what you meant about "acting like monkeys"?

It's not really clear who was right in the situation, whether it was you or the Grand Lodge, but the whole thing just sounds bizarre!

And if someone said that the obligation is only words then it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what Masonry is about.

And, of course much to the delight of the mason-haters, I can't really go further on the obligation topic except to say that I believe like much of Masonry it is an allegory and not literal. But it does mean something, it is the promise of one brother to another to hold the integrity of Masonry in deepest respect.

So long as there are three people in the world there will be a secret.

Some secrets are worth protecting, some are not. If all men were fair, honest, compassionate, and humble...then we could all speak to each other openly and honestly without fear of reprisal....we do not nor will we ever live in such a world.

Your own language shows the exact reason why Masons prefer secrecy then throwing pearls before swine.

emsd 1

What took place in Walla Walla Lodge #7 was the officers during lodge, mocked the ritual by acting like monkeys.
RacerX and I really believed in the teachings of the 3 degrees and still do to this day. There is not one thing I can find bad in the 3 degrees of Masonry.
These officers by doing this, clearly showed they do not. As a result of that, they have no rules or morals.
This of course led to much worse, including criminal activity. The Secretary of the lodge at that time, tried to include us in those activities.
We look at it this way, we became part of Masonry to escape the real hell of having businesses, and the every day battle to survive and feed our families.
Get involved in the probably fruitless "and was there" making the world a little better place.
By us rejecting getting involved "criminally", we became a problem. Being as stupid as they were right off "acting like monkeys" during lodge, they just hung themselves deeper when they tried getting rid of us.
Much happened, it still is hard for us to put it all in perspective.
We did go to Grand Lodge, during that complete malfunction, The Grand Master Wayne Smith attempted to get RacerX to steal, copy or obtain the financial records of Blue Mountain Lodge #13. Both Lodges in the same building.
Now, Wayne Smith "a sneaky dirty old man", attempted to get RacerX to commit a very serious crime, as both lodges are of the few that are incorperated in the state of Washington.
RacerX is much younger then me, he was going to do it, I stopped him, we then began to record all conversations to protect ourselves.
We pulled out, with extensive damage to both our businesses and personal lives, that we are still repairing to this day.
The spinners here will say we were never Masons ect, and they will say the letter from Smith and that dumb ass GS Owens, that I will feature in its own thread, that demands I Don Dyar, remove all post from ATS.
Just my thoughts on how to prevent this sick stuff that is destroying Masonry in the US.
There simply needs to be oversight on a national level, with the power of a "wrecking crew", to get rid of people like this at all levels in all states.
The constant denial and covering up this kind of crap as is the practice now is not working.
RacerX and I are really glad we are now out, but, we are really sad for Masonry.
In spite of the people and what took place, the 3 degrees some how seemed to help us in many ways.
We never took the obligations as meaningless words, not ever, and not now.
Though, we do not honor those obligations, to those that call themselves Masons and do not live it. Then again, we hold those obligations in our dealings with non Masons. Mabe that has made us better men and Masonry does work after all.

Here we go again!

I think this post as well as the link within it pretty much sums up the whole Don Dyer story in a nutshell.

In short, his Walla Walla story's so much walla walla, made up of whole cloth.

eta: That said, I won't be rising again to this troll's bait


[edit on 5-12-2009 by Fitzgibbon]

Goodbye Fitzgibbon. Just keep those secrets and run the ship aground.
There are far more just like you like you, then are not.