reply to post by TheRedneck
Thanks for clarifying that...
Here is some very relevant discussion to your OP and CO2/Infrared radiation and various models.
I am an intuitive thinker, average at math, reasonable with junior physics, great with general systems/correlations....I often have a strong
"intuitive" grasp on how a system works before understanding the exact mechanisms.
Anyways...this passage spoke to me concerning CO2...
Q. Should we be concerned with human breathing as a source of CO2?
A. No. While people do exhale carbon dioxide (the rate is approximately 1 kg per day, and it depends strongly on the person's activity level), this
carbon dioxide includes carbon that was originally taken out of the carbon dioxide in the air by plants through photosynthesis - whether you eat the
plants directly or animals that eat the plants. Thus, there is a closed loop, with no net addition to the atmosphere. Of course, the agriculture, food
processing, and marketing industries use energy (in many cases based on the combustion of fossil fuels), but their emissions of carbon dioxide are
captured in our estimates as emissions from solid, liquid, or gaseous fuels. [RMC]
I am going to make a series of odd statements...
I believe that Man-Made CO2 emissions are detrimental to the well being of our current civilization. (Human Beings)
I believe that man-made "industrial" CO2 is also a "natural" byproduct of our current course of civilization. Along with everything else we
Otherwise...we may view ourselves as "outside" of nature, but to an omnipotent viewer our civilization is no more complex or unnatural than an ant
colony is to us...all of our "pollution", nuclear weapons etc. stem from an evolutionary process that falls entirely within the scope of
"Natural"...We are not distinct from the rest of the natural world.
The distinction we make between ourselves and the rest of nature and evolution on this planet is a nothing more than a grand conceit.
Within the scheme of "nature" our species was afforded an interest in technological innovation...like a crow that collects shiny objects for it's
nest...as well as the ability to reason and make decisions as a community that will determine the quality of life and span of time that our species
flourishes. Bee colonies, wolf packs etc..on a huge scale.
who knows, maybe our natural system has self-regulating mechanisms to decrease populations of a given species when they are overly successful and
widespread as ourselves...who is to say that global warming, even war, is nothing more than the natural systems programmed strategy for population
control when a given species grows too fast.
Anyways...we are part of the natural system...not outside of it...and that includes pollution and every technology we pride ourselves on...to an
omnipotent viewer, our travels to space might not be any more grand or trivial than perhaps a an ovary swelling for the first time until an egg bursts
..that same natural system also affords us the ability to change our survival strategy. Our debates are part of the natural system.
Carbon exchange is a closed cycle. What we do by sourcing "fossil" fuels is add to the closed loop equation. Carbon that is reserved from the past
and for the future is being sourced by us and put into the system in a sudden gush...is this natural? Well, yes in a world with humans..we are
conceited animals within the system, so yes...
but because it is “natural” doesn't mean our species will not suffer from it..nature isn't always thinking about us first...we need to get past
that conceit...our unusual additions to the carbon cycle will likely cause nature to respond in a similarly natural way and natures response plan
...unusual warming..will likely have dire consequences for us Humans...nature will be just fine though..it always is
...that is the nature of
In short...we are injecting unusual amounts of carbon into the system…fossil fuels from the distant past. It is a natural occurrence on a planet
where humans have chosen to live this way. But “natural” does not equate to our survival...ask a tsunami or hurricane survivor how much nature
favors humans...conceit…we are not God’s favorites in the universe…we are but one expression of life in a universe filled with it.
Nature also afforded us the ability to reason and ability to change and the world will still be 100% "natural" with or without us
If we are to survive we need to abandon our conceit that we are outside the natural system...and then abandon the conceit that we are God's
favorites...and then return to the well reasoned perspective of our ancestors who examined the natural world and developed strategies that both
greatly respected the natural system and capitalized on it….with an instinctual understanding they were part of the natural order, not outside of
You can pretend you are not part of the natural system…you just cannot be successful in the natural system with that mindset…in fact it is the
quickest route to extinction.
What we are doing with the Carbon Cycle is reckless and dumb to me...for humans...nature doesn't care... nature/physics/the universe is always an
infinite amount of steps ahead of us.....and it has some nonnegotiable "control mechanisms" that we should be respectful of. We are a conceited
a bit of a ramble, but this is it for while. I don't intend on engaging in the GW - AGW anymore...I will ride it out with the rest of my species
whichever way we go.
[edit on 10-12-2009 by maybereal11]